Biggest fall from grace

[MJH]

Actually the "correct corner" (in WWF/E) was the one Shawn went to the first time. I'm not sure how pronounced it was then as opposed to now, but the #1 rule of working in WWE is hard-cam. Maybe not the absolute #1 but, y'know...

 

My understanding of the intended spot was Vader moves, Shawn lands on his feet, into the switch/duck/cross to the floor and the finish. Shawn doesn't "correct" himself from jumping to land the elbow to landing on his feet. He shifts his hips slightly so he doesn't land on Vader with his feet. His intention was always to land on his feet.

 

As for why he didn't switch and land the elbow: ignoring the idea that elbow drop is the cue to the crowd that SCM is coming and it's far too early in the WWF/E formula for it to hit, it's expecting Shawn to have pretty incredible reaction time (not to mention core strength). Shifting his feet a foot is a considerably easier thing to do. And we're talking about something happening in the split-second of the moment.

 

Putting it on Vader by no means excuses Shawn's actions; Shawn was a douche. But, it's a match Vader knew he had to be perfect and it's hardly an exemplary performance from him all-round. He let Shawn get to him far too much.

[Jingus]

But watch Shawn after the clothesline, he has his back to Vader makes the sign for the elbow drop and climbs up without looking were Vader is.

Which was a stupid mistake. That's the kind of thing you'd expect to see out of a sloppy backyarder, not Shawn Fricking Michaels. When you're going for any kind of dive, you always glance first to make sure the other guy is in position.

 

I don't know what you mean "to make the move work", as i said in my other post this elbow drop was never going to hit so it not important if ether guy is out of position.

It has to do with the physics of the move. To land an elbow drop safely, the guy on the mat has to have his body perpendicular to the guy doing the move. Thus the dropper takes most of the impact on his side, and you land your arm flatly and safely across the other guy's chest. You never try that move against a guy whose body is pointing towards yours like an arrow, as Vader's was here. Either you won't make good contact, or you end up burying the side of your ribcage into their face.

 

It doesn't really matter that the move was supposed to miss, you're still not supposed to do it like Shawn did here. He was far behind Vader, who couldn't see what Shawn was doing. Unless he actually turned around, he couldn't see when Shawn was jumping or when he would land. Vader's only crime here was getting confused and lying there thinking "...where the fuck is he going?" The way his body was positioned, he didn't know where or when Shawn was going to land and thus had no idea which way he should've rolled or at what time. So he froze up and trusted that Shawn knew what the hell he was doing, which clearly wasn't the case.

[jdw]

They had to do a Yoko feud. That was the big dream match. The two big fat monsters from 93 finally clashing. I'm more disappointed they did not meet at Wrestlemania 12.

I agree they should have done it eventually at a IYH PPV, but Vader should have killed a JTTS at WM. I remember how they built Ludvig Borga at SummerSlam 93 by having him kill Marty Jannetty. Jannetty made him look like a god. Vader should have killed a guy who could make him look huge and brutal, like Bob Holly, instead of feuding with a fat guy from the get-go. Of course, him being thrown into a random 6 man in which he had to sell for old Jake Roberts and bump for Ahmed Johnson made things even worse. Way to make him non-special already.

What was the reason for turning it into a 6 man ? Was that because Yoko's health was getting bad (getting way too fat for his own good) at this point ?

 

Why bother with a JTTS at Mania?

 

WrestleMania XII - Anaheim, CA - Arrowhead Pond - March 31, 1996 (15,855; 12,909 paid)

 

Vader, Owen Hart, & Davey Boy Smith (w/ Jim Cornette) defeated Ahmed Johnson, Jake Roberts, & Yokozuna (w/ Mr. Fuji) at 13:11 when Vader pinned Roberts with a running Vader Bomb followed by a Vader Bomb off the middle turnbuckle as Roberts attempted to hit the DDT on an interfering Cornette; had Yoko's team won, Yoko would have received 5 minutes alone in the ring with Cornette

 

In Your House “Good Friends…Better Enemies” - Omaha, NE - Civic Center - April 28, 1996 (9,563; 8,273 paid; sell out)

Vader (w/ Jim Cornette) pinned Razor Ramon with a sit-down splash after blocking an attempt at the Razor's Edge and hitting a backdrop at 14:49; prior to the bout, footage was shown of Vader injuring Yokozuna's leg three weeks earlier on Raw; after the match, Dok Hendrix interviewed Vader & Cornette at ringside during which he announced Vader would face Yokozuna at the following month's In Your House, with Vader then arguing with Cornette over the announcement (Scott Hall's return TV match after a 2-month absence and his last TV appearance for nearly 6 years)

 

Hall is leaving the promotion and they have it take 15 minutes for Vader to beat him?

 

Vader should have squashed Hall at Mania. Singles match, quick, kill him dead. Then you never see Hall again until he shows up on Nitro.

 

John

[El-P]

I totally forgot about that Hall vs Vader match at the following IYH. Yeah, Vader vs Hall would have been perfect for Mania.

[ragemaster]

It doesn't really matter that the move was supposed to miss, you're still not supposed to do it like Shawn did here. He was far behind Vader, who couldn't see what Shawn was doing. Unless he actually turned around, he couldn't see when Shawn was jumping or when he would land. Vader's only crime here was getting confused and lying there thinking "...where the fuck is he going?" The way his body was positioned, he didn't know where or when Shawn was going to land and thus had no idea which way he should've rolled or at what time. So he froze up and trusted that Shawn knew what the hell he was doing, which clearly wasn't the case.

How do you know Vader can't see him, lay on your back and look up to the left and right. Shawn's on a four and a half foot platform which elevates his height, he would have to be blind not to see him. Also if you watch Vader, he's looking at Shawn and starts to move his arms into his body when Shawn jump's of the top, so there's no way he didn't see him. Vader fucked up and if you see it different and don't take Vader word he fucked up (wish i had a link for his shoot) i won't convince you.

[Jingus]

I know what he said, I've got the Vader shoot. I just disagree with him. People blame themselves all the time for things which really aren't their fault. And no, looking at it again, I'm still not sure Vader could see Shawn clearly on the top rope. He's craning his head all the way to the right, trying to see what's going on; and his mask probably restricts his peripheral vision to an extent. Once Shawn is in the air, you can see Vader kind of start to move once he finally realizes where Shawn is at. He just didn't do it fast enough to get out of the way. I don't blame him for briefly freezing up, under the circumstances, when Michaels is doing something weird that he shouldn't have been trying in the first place.

[MJH]

They'd planned the spot; for Vader to move. At that point in the match there's no way Shawn was ever intending to hit that move. They aren't calling anything there, it's clearly a planned sequence leading to the finish what comes thirty secondslater. If the plan is for Vader to move, and he doesn't, then that's his mistake.

[MikeCampbell]

I totally forgot about that Hall vs Vader match at the following IYH. Yeah, Vader vs Hall would have been perfect for Mania.

Hall was suspended at the time of Mania. Officially for testing positive for pot (also for refusing to work a long term program with Goldust).

[Guest Tabe]

Hell, how many guys got more than one big run against Backlund? Don Muraco...anyone else?

Greg Valentine. 1979, 1981, and then in a non-title series in 1984.

 

I think there was at least one other guy that went around with Backlund twice but I am drawing a blank.

 

Tabe

[jdw]

Hall flunked a dozen dope tests over the years. He gave notice, so Vince suspended him as punishment. This was after Leon was already in (i.e. the Rumble debut). They could have as easily squashed him at Mania and *then* suspended him for the balance of his time in the WWF.

 

John

[Victator]

Didn't Graham get a second run in 81?

[Loss]

I think the idea was that he would miss a nice WM payoff, but I agree that it would have been better use of Vader.

[Dooley]

I know what he said, I've got the Vader shoot. I just disagree with him. People blame themselves all the time for things which really aren't their fault.

In wrestling?

 

Hall flunked a dozen dope tests over the years. He gave notice, so Vince suspended him as punishment. This was after Leon was already in (i.e. the Rumble debut). They could have as easily squashed him at Mania and *then* suspended him for the balance of his time in the WWF.

But then Hall gets a Mania payday, which is what Vince was trying to avoid. I agree Vader should have squashed him in 5 minutes at IYH though.

[jdw]

I think the idea was that he would miss a nice WM payoff, but I agree that it would have been better use of Vader.

Simple enough though:

 

* don't tell him prior to Mania

* having him piss in the jar at Mania

* suspend him at the tapings the next night based on the earlier test

* if his Mania result comes back positive (of course it would), then dock him the Mania payoff

 

That's if you're worried about the payoff.

 

The tricky part is that if you squash Ramon on the undecard, just how crybaby is Nash going to be in working his job to Taker at Mania. But you kind of deal with that.

 

John

[Dooley]

Has Vince ever made one of his stars work the biggest show of the year for free though? Sets an ugly precedent.

[jdw]

Has Vince ever made one of his stars work the biggest show of the year for free though? Sets an ugly precedent.

This is a "star" leaving the company. And he wouldn't be making him work for free. Just dock him that PPV/Mania bonus. Whatever his normal pay rate, give it to him.

 

Hall was suspended from Feb 20 to April 7.

 

His last match was the same card as Nash's:

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - May 19, 1996 (18,800; 16,564 paid; sell out)

Hunter Hearst Helmsley pinned Razor Ramon with the Pedigree moments after referee Tim White was knocked down as Ramon lifted Helmsley up for the Razor's Edge; after the bout, Ramon attempted to say goodbye to the fans but his mic was cut off

 

WWF World Champion Shawn Michaels defeated Diesel in a steel cage match at around the 20-minute mark by escaping out the door after hitting the challenger with a steel chair and following with the superkick; late in the bout, Davey Boy Smith briefly interfered and prevented the champion from escaping over the top; moments later, as Diesel was still knocked out and Michaels was posing with the title belt, Razor Ramon came out, hugged the champion and raised his hand; Michaels then revived Diesel and waved for someone else to join them in the ring; Hunter Hearst Helmsley then appeared and hugged Michaels before all four men embraced and held each others arm in the air; as punishment for the public breaking of kayfabe, the office punished Helmsley by taking him out of the King of the Ring tournament, which he was scheduled to win, and making him lose matches for several months straight (the final appearance of Scott Hall and Kevin Nash for almost 6 years)

So instead of 2/20 through 4/7, make it 4/1 (day after Mania) through the end of his contract. Same difference. And if he comes back positive, then dock him the PPV bonus. I'm almost 100% certain that the WWF's fairly one sided contracts would have been worded in such a way that you could do it.

 

John

[Dooley]

Has Vince ever made one of his stars work the biggest show of the year for free though? Sets an ugly precedent.

This is a "star" leaving the company. And he wouldn't be making him work for free. Just dock him that PPV/Mania bonus. Whatever his normal pay rate, give it to him.

 

It's the same thing John. I don't want to get bogged down in semantics. In '95-'96 you've got people bolting for WCW anyway, a locker room full of strife and oh by the way, Vince made Razor work Mania for free on his way out. It's penny wise and pound foolish.

[Al]

Sorry maybe i wasn't clear enough with my description, all Vader had to do was roll away when Shawn jumped of the top rope. If Shawn was planning on hitting the elbow i imagine he would have, as he's hit it on other wrestlers with out issue when they have been out of position. But he wasn't planning on hitting it, so Vader could of been any were in the ring and it wouldn't have mattered as long as he moved when shawn jumped. Shawn jumped with the idea of being in the elbow drop position in the air and then changing his position to land on this feet which he did. Because Vader hadn't moved he ended up looking like a dick on a major ppv which caused his temper tantrum.

Yeah, I know, but it still looks fishy. See for yourself. The whole spot starts around 4 minutes in. Vader takes the bump at 4:10, and around 4:15 you can see him shifting his body around a little bit on the mat. The way he's positioned, he's clearly set up for the elbow drop from the bottom-right turnbuckle. But Shawn, inexplicably, goes and climbs the top-right turnbuckle. That's a pure fuckup on Shawn's part, because Vader isn't positioned anywhere near where he would need to be in order to make the move work when Shawn's jumping from that corner. Shawn is much too polished a ring general to make a rookie mistake like that, and that's why I think it just might've been deliberate. Vader doesn't know what's going on, and Shawn doesn't even really give him enough time to dodge before landing on his feet and stomping him in the face. (Also, why land on his feet at all? Just squash him with the fuckin' elbow, if you're intent on stiffing him here. Landing on his feet just broadcasts "Hey everybody, we fucked up!" to anyone remotely smart.) It's all the more apparent because they repeat the spot later (at about 3:45), with Vader landing in the exact same position as before, only this time Shawn climbs the correct corner and hits the move successfully.

 

Forget the elbow spot. The reaction of the guy around 5:20 after Michaels is dropped onto the guardrail is pure gold.

[Matt D]

Re: Vader's debut. I thought he had to go in for surgery or something along those lines. So he destroyed Monsoon and then they couldn't do much with him for a few months.

 

I might have the timeline wrong.

[El-P]

Re: Vader's debut. I thought he had to go in for surgery or something along those lines. So he destroyed Monsoon and then they couldn't do much with him for a few months.

 

I might have the timeline wrong.

I think he already needed surgery when he worked the Dome Show and had a great match with Inoki. Vader debuted later in the month at the Royal Rumble, then worked the following RAW, and was off the road for a few. So, I guess the timeline is right, unless he got surgery between the Dome Show and the Rumble.

[Matt D]

Re: Vader's debut. I thought he had to go in for surgery or something along those lines. So he destroyed Monsoon and then they couldn't do much with him for a few months.

 

I might have the timeline wrong.

I think he already needed surgery when he worked the Dome Show and had a great match with Inoki. Vader debuted later in the month at the Royal Rumble, then worked the following RAW, and was off the road for a few. So, I guess the timeline is right, unless he got surgery between the Dome Show and the Rumble.

 

The other HUGE problem Vader has about 96 is that they ran Michaels vs Vader on house shows all around the loop before Summerslam 96 with Vader losing cleanly. So by the time the PPV hit the majority of the fanbase who would have ordered the PPV had already seen the match and a definitive result.

 

The Vader shoot is pretty good.

[Guest Tabe]

Didn't Graham get a second run in 81?

It was '82 but, yeah, he got a second run against Backlund. He got the rematch series in '78 and then a series in '82 built around the angle of Graham destroying the title belt on TV and Backlund crying over it.

 

Tabe

[Mr Wrestling X]

Taz in 2000, pretty much says it all. Taz went from being a killer in ECW to jobbing to everyone in the WWF. Consider how promising Taz(z)'s WWF career started, he debuted at the 2000 RR, defeating the undefeated Kurt Angle by submission no less. He was then allowed to go over and take the ECW championship belt from Mike Awesome, before returning to defend it in the WWF. Instead, Tazz was squashed by Triple H in a champion vs champion match, Tazz then dropped the belt to Tommy Dreamer and returned to the WWF, where he was thrown into the messy hardcore division and did nothing worth note until 2002, where he briefly held the tag titles with Spike Dudley...Now Taz, who went from wrestler to acclaimed commentator works for TNA, a rumored result of Vince McMahon's control freak nature over the headset.

[smkelly]

Yeah, Taz is a good one. I think the financial improvement might offset the win/loss ratio, though.

 

He got injured fairly quickly in the WWF and he looked very small in comparison to the "other heavyweights." I was disappointed that Vince and co. didn't know what to do with Taz because he did have potential to be a superstar. IIRC though, it was pretty much Taz's choice to step away from the ring because of injuries previously sustained.

[MikeCampbell]

I really liked Tazz's heel run in Summer 2000, but they pretty much killed him dead by having Lawler and JR outsmart him at Summerslam. Then he got thrown together with Raven to accomplish nothing special, and then was turned babyface again (I don't even remember if there was a real angle to do it) to feud with RTC.