Loss Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Not my Hall of Fame lads. The Hall of Fame itself has been around for a long time now and the arguments why certain acts are and arent in are as old as the hills. The Murdochs and Rock n Rolls are such yearly footballs of discussion I am just taken a back on a forum like this that someone doesnt know their status and the generalised reasoning they havent made it in. I should have said "really drew" not just simply "drew" in the previous post. The point is that it's a bad argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Bruce complained about the Rock n Rolls working such a formulaic, pat match, which misses the point. They perfected the tag formula to such effect that's why everyone is told to copy them. Bryan's "I don't see their influence anymore" argument was odd, as he cited all the current WWE performers claiming that The Ultimate Warrior was their favourite wrestler growing up, not Ricky or Robert, as evidence that influence is overrated as a criteria. But I don't think anyone other than perhaps Mason Ryan is watching Warrior tapes to learn how to work. The problem with Lesnar is the precedent has already been set by the likes of Sakuraba and Funaki going in. He shouldn't go in as without the UFC run, which really shouldn't count, he's a weaker candidate than other stars with hotter short-lived peaks like Batista, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Goldberg, Warrior, etc., but I don't think that'll matter to most Observer voters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 On work *only* the Rock'n Roll are Hof. On influence *only* that are Hof. And they drew. This is just ridiculous. Meanwhile, they're talking about Edge being a deserving candidate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Bryan's "I don't see their influence anymore" argument was odd, as he cited all the current WWE performers claiming that The Ultimate Warrior was their favourite wrestler growing up, not Ricky or Robert, as evidence that influence is overrated as a criteria. But I don't think anyone other than perhaps Mason Ryan is watching Warrior tapes to learn how to work. What's funny about that is that a few seconds earlier Alvarez also pointed out that the guys in WWE developmental are still told to watch R&R matches when they want to learn how to work a good tag match. Re Brock - given there's a fairly big chance he's going to come back to wrestling once his MMA career is over anyways, if only for a limited time, he's a perfect guy to use the "too soon to put on the ballot" argument with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 From Meltzer - Moolah was going to be in the original class of the HOF but he got talked out of putting her in I'm going to say what I said when this came up the last time: My memory if different from Dave's, though not a 180. My recollection is that both of us didn't think she deserved to be in. I mean... folks who have the WON's in the 80s can read what he had to say about Moolah back then, and none of it was positive or would give much indication that he thought she was an all-time great. My recollection is that he was negative to Moolah before I was negative to Moolah. I didn't need to jog anything. Don't know if people need me to be clearer. I can be: Dave didn't think she was a HOFer even before I didn't think she was a HOFer. He really, and strongly, didn't want her in *his* HOF. She never was on the original HOF class list: * Dave didn't have an "original class" written out in advance of us winging through the magazine * he didn't think she was in the second her name came up and was negative towards her * he sure as hell didn't talk to me about candidates after he flew back before I did and wrote up the piece The last is how and when people got on the list: Dave talking with other folks after he got back. I'd add: * Dave needs to remember that he put folks in the Hall in 1997 If he had remorse about being talked out of putting Moolah in the HOF, and took any serious grief over it during the next year that he truly gave a shit about, he could easily have put her into the HOF in 1997. After all, that what he did with several people that we frankly made an error on. Fact is: he didn't give a shit about the Moolah complaints at the time, and strongly didn't want her in the HOF. Beats the shit out of me why he wants to bury the fact that he thought she had no business being in. But if the sole thing about the HOF that he wants to give me credit for is keeping Moolah out, I guess I should be happy about it. Moolah has always been a fucking joke of a candidate. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 The "Brock's MMA stuff counts and it's why he's going in" is pretty depressing. I'd also add that Doc's obit/bio is interesting in the sense that it spends far more time on his non-pro wrestling stuff than it does on what one would think got him voted into the HOF: his All Japan run. I'd hate to do a word count or paragraph count on it. It just runs out of steam in that stretch. That's too bad, because again: it's the reason he's a HOF candidate and in. Reading the piece, one really gets no support for the case that he's a HOFer. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jacobi Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 The "Brock's MMA stuff counts and it's why he's going in" is pretty depressing. I'd also add that Doc's obit/bio is interesting in the sense that it spends far more time on his non-pro wrestling stuff than it does on what one would think got him voted into the HOF: his All Japan run. I'd hate to do a word count or paragraph count on it. It just runs out of steam in that stretch. That's too bad, because again: it's the reason he's a HOF candidate and in. Reading the piece, one really gets no support for the case that he's a HOFer. John Even from the audio, Dave mentioned he didn't vote for Doc, but I think admitted he 'saw his case' and that if all the Japanese people thought he belonged, he accepts that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 The "Brock's MMA stuff counts and it's why he's going in" is pretty depressing. Did the Rock's movie success play a factor in his HOF induction? I'd also add that Doc's obit/bio is interesting in the sense that it spends far more time on his non-pro wrestling stuff than it does on what one would think got him voted into the HOF: his All Japan run. I'd hate to do a word count or paragraph count on it. It just runs out of steam in that stretch. That's too bad, because again: it's the reason he's a HOF candidate and in. Reading the piece, one really gets no support for the case that he's a HOFer. John I had the same issue. I wish more was written about Doc's defining in ring moments and matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 I'd also add that Doc's obit/bio is interesting in the sense that it spends far more time on his non-pro wrestling stuff than it does on what one would think got him voted into the HOF: his All Japan run. Almost all the talk from Meltzer on the radio show was about his amature wrestling/football college days too. Dunno, he did say he specifically he held back on wrighting his obit since he figured he'd get into the hof eventually anyways and he could just write about him then so maybe that's why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 I'm obviously knowledgable about Doc's All Japan, and I found the obit/bio pretty lacking in how it dealt with that core period of his career. I suspect that folks who were knee deep in the Watts Mid-South/UWF project, or have even watch most of the mass of Mid-South/UWF tv that has come widely and easily available over the past 5 or so years, would probably find the Mid-South section pretty lacking / glossed over. I never was super enthused about Doc's as a HOF candidate. But I'm also not going to cry over it. Kind of a Murdoch of Japan type. I think Gordy as an individual candidate was a vastly better candidate, and folks never got around to voting him in and instead had to drag him in with the Birds. I think if you stack the two of them against each other, wouldn't everyone agree that as an individual candidate: Gordy > Doc Or that it's not terribly close? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 The "Brock's MMA stuff counts and it's why he's going in" is pretty depressing. Did the Rock's movie success play a factor in his HOF induction? It's hard to say whether or not that was a factor with some voters. Having said that The Rock is an obvious HoF candidate no matter what. If he died in a fire, quit to sell insurance, moved to India to follow a guru, et he still would have been a slam dunk HoF candidate. It is possible that there were some people that voted for him because they thought he was good in Walking Tall, but I think there numbers would be small and I don't think anyone would point to that as the strength of his candidacy. With Brock his MMA numbers would be the strength of his candidacy. Without them he's got less of a case than Bill Goldberg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 The "Brock's MMA stuff counts and it's why he's going in" is pretty depressing. Did the Rock's movie success play a factor in his HOF induction? None. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 The "Brock's MMA stuff counts and it's why he's going in" is pretty depressing. Did the Rock's movie success play a factor in his HOF induction? It's hard to say whether or not that was a factor with some voters. Having said that The Rock is an obvious HoF candidate no matter what. If he died in a fire, quit to sell insurance, moved to India to follow a guru, et he still would have been a slam dunk HoF candidate. It is possible that there were some people that voted for him because they thought he was good in Walking Tall, but I think there numbers would be small and I don't think anyone would point to that as the strength of his candidacy. With Brock his MMA numbers would be the strength of his candidacy. Without them he's got less of a case than Bill Goldberg. That's well explained Dylan as always but I was half referencing Dave on the radio show with Bruce & Bryan formulating a talking point of Brock as a drawing card in UFC drawing more wrestling fans to purchase Pay Per View than any other (full time) wrester in this era as a means of providing a case for his induction as a Pro Wrestler. How far can that logic stretch, you know? Then you have the fact Sakaraba is in due to the fluidity of MMA and Pro Wrestling had for a stint of time in Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 That sort of logic doesn't help Sgt. Slaughter much as he is sitting way down the list of candidates this year despite being a crossover figure of some magnitude in the 80's. He was also a better draw than Brock (and in my view a better worker and I'm a big fan of Brock's work). If Brock had been picked up by the Vikings and become a Pro Bowler every year I'm sure some people would point to that as something or another when touting his candidacy. But I doubt he'd have much of a chance. MMA = Pro Wrestling in the mind of Dave and co. is really the only reason he is considered a strong candidate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 MMA = Pro Wrestling in the mind of Dave and co. is really the only reason he is considered a strong candidate. Get with the times, Dylan. Any marketed and promoted conflict between two or more individuals ending in an athletic contest is Pro Wrestling. * * Except Kickboxing most of the time, Boxing or any other sport Dave doesnt have time to cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Being someone who watched almost every Mid-South/UWF TV show from 1982-87 yes the Doc bio was severely lacking in that information. Doc wasn't pushed as a main guy until the last year of the promotion but he was involved in big angles and his series with Gordy was legendary. I'm not the biggest R&R fan there is and I think the Fabs & Fantastics are a better in ring team but you can't deny the impact they had on babyface tag teams from 1984-86. Look at all the copycats that came out of it plus Ricky Morton was as good as it got as a babyface worker. They drew huge for Watts & Crockett and in fact they were as big as Dusty at one point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 From the Doc bio: Williams, out of loyalty to Motoko Baba, Giant Baba’s widow, decided to stay with All Japan when Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Taue and Akiyama and most everyone else on the roster left to form Pro Wrestling NOAH. Jesus Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Two things: 1. I think Doc is a really really weak candidate and don't really see why he's in. 2. If Brock Lesner gets into to the HoF, it will become a total joke in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Two things: 1. I think Doc is a really really weak candidate and don't really see why he's in. 2. If Brock Lesner gets into to the HoF, it will become a total joke in my eyes. I don't think Doc is an abysmal candidate but to me he was more of a benchmark candidate than a guy I could ever see voting for myself. Him getting in before Murdoch feels really wrong to me and I'm not nearly as high on Murdoch's candidacy as guys like Will or Phil. I don't disagree with the sentiment on Brock, but it is worth pointing out that Angle when he got in was arguably as bad or worse of a candidate than Lesnar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yeah I don't think Angle should have gone in when he did either. But if we get to the point where Lesner is in and Ricky Morton, Arn Anderson, Tully Blanchard and Barry Windham are not, then the HoF loses pretty much all credibility in my book. I mean it'll just look arbitrary and, frankly, smelling of generic IWC fanboyism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 To me, of the people still on the ballot, the Rock & Rolls and Jerry Jarrett are the most glaring omissions, with Murdoch not far behind. If Cena goes in his first year on the ballot (which is embarrassing if he doesn't), once all of those guys go in, assuming they do, I start to wonder if there's any reason to induct anyone else at all. But yeah, there are guys way down the list like Jim Crockett that have a better case than those getting way higher percentages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 The most glaring omission is Schmidt. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Observer poll results from the Friday update -- Which of these people is the strongest Hall of Fame candidate? John Cena 36.1% Brock Lesnar 23.7% Buddy Rose 14.6% Hiroshi Tanahashi 10.4% Domenic DeNucci 5.0% Sharpe Brothers 3.0% Mario Milano 2.8% Johnny Barend 2.8% Masahiko Kimura 1.7% Amazed that some people find Buddy Rose a better candidate than John Cena, and I loved Buddy Rose, was his friend and trained with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 All things considered, I'm mostly fine with the Hall as it is. I do think there are a few flaws with the voting process . I also, like many of you, think there are a handful of individuals who shouldn't be in. But even then, I tend to go back and forth on guys like Angle, Jericho, and HHH. Right now, I'm heavy into wrestling history, so those three don't "stand up" to the numbers put up by many hall of famers, at least in my eyes (actually HHH probably does, but I'm still recovering from years of hating the guy). Every hall of fame, be it sports, music, etc., has a few questionable inductees in their midst, and the resulting debate over who is "worthy" or not is usually fun and mostly harmless anyway. My main criticism with the Hall is that several individuals should have been inducted years ago. Honestly, when I look at the list of people on the ballot, of the ones I am familiar with (that is, most of the North American candidates), I would be fine with almost all of them being inducted, outside of Batista, Edge, and maybe Moolah. The way things are going, I would venture to say that a large percentage of them eventually will get in, even though it may take several years or even decades. Really, even though my knowledge of some of them is relatively limited, I think Schmidt, Albano, Jarrett, Ventura, Owen, Monsoon, Slaughter, Mr.Wrestling II, Apter, Gary Hart, Morales, the RnR's, Koloff, Crockett Jr., the Assassins, and the Andersons should already be in. Others, like Sting, Murdoch, Hennig, Owen Hart, Arion, Sabu, and Snuka are a notch or two bellow, but still very memorable performers who wouldn't "disgrace" the Hall by being inducted. And mostly for personal reasons (although I don't think his inclusion would be that out of place), I think Jake Roberts, despite drawing power issues, belongs in the Hall. I've also heard that Buddy Rose and Jerry Blackwell have been criminally overlooked Anyway, next years debate should be fun. Lesner getting in may be the final straw that leads to the schism of the Church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 The Lesnar vote will probably end up being a referendum of sorts on the Pro Wrestling = MMA view point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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