2011 Observer Hall of Fame thread

[smkelly]

HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES

Hans Schmidt

INTERESTING variations of the name: Hans Schmidt

IIRC he was the innovator of the evil NAZI heel schtick. He didn't accomplish much in terms of big title wins (like NWA) but he was successful at being someone everyone (patriotic Americans) hated. I dunno enough about the guy though, as I've never seen any matches of him. But judging purely from what I've read, I think he deserves a spot in the HOF.

 

MODERN PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES

Batista

I'm not as high on Batista as most are. It took him a long time to become interesting to me. I remember when he debuted though - just another big WWE muscleheaded steroid guy. He eventually morphed into a solid, entertaining, and pivotal member of the WWE roster, but I wouldn't consider him a HOF caliber performer just yet. Maybe never if he never returns.

 

Edge

While HBK/Ramon pioneered the ladder match in the WWE, it was Edge, along with a supporting cast that truly revolutionized the car-crash ladder matches the WWE has showcased since late 1999. He also has some stellar singles matches under his belt - mostly gimmick matches - but he was a capable worker nonetheless. If anything, he is a WWE HOF kind of guy.

 

Owen Hart

Yeah, I'd vote for Owen. He was an awesome worker when allowed to actually work.

 

Curt Hennig

I'd vote for Hennig too. It is too bad that the later stages of his career were botched by WCW and then by his own stupidity.

 

Pedro Morales

I would vote for Pedro - not on an in-ring basis, but for accomplishments only. VOTE FOR PEDRO~!

 

Dick Murdoch

Yeah, I'd vote for Dick. Awesome worker.

 

Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson)

Definitely HOF material team. I'm actually surprised that the R&R's weren't in the '96 class when just about every major worker/talent was initially inducted.

 

Sabu

Dunno. I'd probably vote for Sabu. He did his thing with hardcore wrestling and was a steady superstar in ECW for most of the non-WWE run of the company. Dave loved Sabu in '94 when Sabu was crashing tables and taking bumps hardly seen in a "bigger" American company. He was the King of the Indies for a time too.

 

Sgt. Slaughter

No doubt, HOF time for Sarge. He was the gimmick match man in the early 80s for the WWF. One of the best "big men" of all-time too.

 

Jimmy Snuka

Dunno about Snuka. His most famous moment was a cage dive. Outside of that...things are blurry.

 

Sting

No doubt about it.

 

JAPAN CANDIDATES

Volk Han

No doubt about it.

 

Kensuke Sasaki

Yeah, Sasaki has had enough good/great matches under his belt.

 

Kiyoshi Tamura

Was the man opposite Han in RINGS.

 

Steve "Dr. Death" Williams

No doubt about it.

 

MEXICO CANDIDATES

Atlantis

No doubt about it.

 

Blue Panther

No doubt about it.

 

L.A. Park

No doubt about it.

 

Vampiro

Is there a case for Vampiro in the HOF? If there is, enlighten me, because when I saw his name I thought it was a joke at first.

 

Dr. Wagner Jr.

No doubt about it.

 

EUROPE CANDIDATES

Big Daddy

I have never heard anything good about BD.

 

Rollerball Mark Rocco

He was a good worker. But I don't know if he is HOF material.

 

Johnny Saint

No doubt about it.

[Guest Slickster]

I think the issue with Edge is "Did he draw money?"

When he was on top as a heel, he was always paired with bigger stars than he was (Taker, Cena, Batista, Hardy).

[Loss]

Edge drew television ratings opposite Ric Flair. Quite a few people can say that.

[Sean Liska]

Edge drew television ratings opposite Ric Flair. Quite a few people can say that.

They were bigger numbers than anyone else has done in the last 9 years. They went on a pretty crazy TV ratings run by modern standards after Edge won the title, including several weeks without Flair.

 

January 9, 2006 4.3

January 16, 2006 4.3

January 23, 2006 4.5

January 30, 2006 4.5

February 6, 2006 4.5

[Mad Dog]

The fact that Sting has to compete with the likes of Edge and Batista for votes really makes me sad.

[Dylan Waco]

The fact that Sting has to compete with the likes of Edge and Batista for votes really makes me sad.

I wouldn't vote for any of them.

[Sean Liska]

The fact that Sting has to compete with the likes of Edge and Batista for votes really makes me sad.

Sting only spent 2 years in a company as successful as WWE has been over the last decade. I'm not a big proponent now on Batista or Edge, but someone deserves credit besides Cena.

[sek69]

We had this exact same conversation last year, and possibly the year before that. Gorilla was not critical to the boom. Hogan was. Vince was. To a lesser degree, people like Piper, Heenan and Savage were. It still would have happened without Gorilla. Dave has said he liked Gorilla personally, but thought he wasn't a good announcer and has explained why. Many times. People who don't want to believe it choose to ignore it.

 

Tell me, what did Gorilla do backstage?

 

 

The reason I brought up Gorilla is because Dave and Bryan have been (justifiably) bashing Michael Cole for killing the product he's trying to sell, especially his constant burial of Daniel Bryan. He gets "boring" chanted during his matches and Bryan has casual fan friends of his telling him they think Daniel Bryan sucks and they both feel it's because Cole is out there calling him a nerd and saying he has no personality every week. Now granted, that's his gimmick and Cole is largely just saying what he's being told to say. I just wonder if that ever makes Dave especially pause when considering Gorilla, for all his faults, at least tried to get guys over. He played a big part in helping Bret get over, even while part of the dastardly Hart Foundation he was putting over how solid Bret was in the ring. When they decided to pull the trigger on his singles push, they could build on the fact that this was the guy who was the fundamentally sound portion of a great tag team. While no one will ever confuse him with Solie or JR on the mic, it does speak to how your lead announcer does have a role in getting your product over with the home audience. Of course Hogan would have been Hogan no matter what, you only have to look at his AWA career to see that. I just think a lot of other guys on the card got a rub of sorts by having Gorilla give them props. Same thing when Jesse would grudgingly admit when a babyface did a good move, it beats the hell out of having Michael Cole literally take a shit on half the roster every week (to borrow a Gorilla-ism). That's why I brought it up again, you now have exactly what Dave seemed to think Gorilla was doing take place every week on WWE TV and it's arguably several times worse than the damage he thought Monsoon was doing.

 

Also I always thought his wrestling career was largely overshadowed by his post-wrestling career. He was one of the better drawing heels of the early WWWF era, but since almost all the footage that exists are either of him way early in his career in Stampede or the tail end of his career in the late 70s. It would seem the bulk of his peak time has been lost to the ether.

 

As far as his backstage role, I was always under the impression that Gorilla was an important guy behind the scenes. Maybe it was just people putting him over after he passed away, and certainly toward the end he wasn't doing much, but I thought he was almost like an agent of sorts and would give advice to guys who were interested in hearing it. Perhaps he just held the wall up, who knows. If that's the case, then strike that portion and just consider the other parts then.

[cm funk]

I did a post on DVDVR several years ago attempting to debunk the idea that Sting wasn't a draw. The basic gist of it was that PPVs headlined by Sting almost always did a better buyrate than other shows in the same timeframe. The reality is that by the time Sting was put into the top spot the industry was on a major downswing, WCW was a mess creatively, they were awful at house card promotion.....sometimes a company itself just won't draw. You can lump him into the same crowd with Hart and Michaels as guys who had the misfortune of getting their run on top at the nadir of the industry.

 

Sting was also a major part of WCW's biggest year (98 may have been bigger financially, not sure, but 97 was the year for WCW).....which led to their biggest PPV buyrate in history. You take a guy who was essentially the babyface ace of a company for the better part of a decade, who helped them stay afloat through the lean years, who sold merch and magazines etc....and who had a major hand in their biggest year......I just don't buy the "Sting doesn't draw" canard. A guy who was that over with those crowds for that long was certainly putting asses in the seats and making the company money. Imagine how bad WCW might have been in 91-93 if they didn't have Sting?

 

And you also have to qualify post-Starrcade '97 as he was absolutely sabotaged from a chance to draw big money on top for the first time. Could he have done it? I don't see why not. But we all know what happened there and it's not worth rehashing.

[WrestlingPower]

Has anyone gotten in Meltzer's ear about representing the indies in the HOF? The independent wrestling scene in the US has been pretty prominent since the late 90s and I think not including a guy like Christopher Daniels on the ballot is an oversight. Even if you write off the indies as being insignificant as compared to national promotions, there are other guys who have gotten in largely due to their body of work so in that way Daniels deserves to be on there as well not to mention he has worked for national promotion for most of the past 6-7 years and headlined some shows.

[Loss]

I don't think Sting is a HOF guy, but he has a better case than many guys already in. On the slippery slope argument, he's a strong pick, but I hate using that as a determining factor.

[Victator]

The fact that Sting has to compete with the likes of Edge and Batista for votes really makes me sad.

Sting only spent 2 years in a company as successful as WWE has been over the last decade. I'm not a big proponent now on Batista or Edge, but someone deserves credit besides Cena.

 

They are maintaining an already successful healthy promotion. Big difference than being the guy keeping WCW or worse yet TNA from oblivion.

[Dylan Waco]

"The company did shitty business but didn't die because this guy stayed around" is not a good argument for a candidate.

 

Sting is a better candidate than a few guys who are already in, and I don't think he is a ludicrous person to debate the merits of, but I would leave "hey, at least WCW didn't go out of business when he was on top!" out of the talking points.

 

As for indy guys, unless someone can be shown to be a draw, fuck that. Danielson would definitely be the strongest candidate in terms of work and I think he would look really whacky in an HoF at this point.

[Phil Schneider]

Chris Daniels? That is pretty crazy. Is there a single way he is a better candidate then say Dutch Mantel? And I can't imagine Dutch even getting on a ballot.

[Dylan Waco]

Buddy Rose isn't on the ballot. Bill Dundee isn't on the ballot. Akira Taue isn't on the ballot. El Dandy isn't on the ballot. One could argue that none of those guys should be in the HoF, but those guys strike me as guys that probably deserve to at least be on a ballot.

 

Chris Daniels strikes me as a guy that should pop up for ballot discussion shortly after the induction of Balls Mahoney.

[Victator]

"The company did shitty business but didn't die because this guy stayed around" is not a good argument for a candidate.

 

Sting is a better candidate than a few guys who are already in, and I don't think he is a ludicrous person to debate the merits of, but I would leave "hey, at least WCW didn't go out of business when he was on top!" out of the talking points.

Just pointing out guys like Batista and Edge did not have to deal with what he did. The guy who not only finished the race carrying a sack of rocks but placed pretty high is impressive.

[Sean Liska]

The fact that Sting has to compete with the likes of Edge and Batista for votes really makes me sad.

Sting only spent 2 years in a company as successful as WWE has been over the last decade. I'm not a big proponent now on Batista or Edge, but someone deserves credit besides Cena.

 

They are maintaining an already successful healthy promotion. Big difference than being the guy keeping WCW or worse yet TNA from oblivion.

 

WWE's numbers were heading the wrong way from 2001-2004. They ran a few MSG shows that drew in the 4,000-5,000 range, and it overall seemed like a company that was fading and didn't have any answers. They got new life and several big years when they elevated Cena and Batista and other guys like Orton and Edge started clicking with the audience.

[Bix]

At least theoretically, someone who would go in solely to mostly on in ring work would have to be so overwhelmingly great in the ring that it outweighs the rest. There are very, very few people in e HOF based solely on that criteria. Daniels flamed out in...what, 2003? 2004? He's just a less successful Jerry Lynn.

[MJH]

Do Triple-A have a HOF?

[Victator]

The fact that Sting has to compete with the likes of Edge and Batista for votes really makes me sad.

Sting only spent 2 years in a company as successful as WWE has been over the last decade. I'm not a big proponent now on Batista or Edge, but someone deserves credit besides Cena.

 

They are maintaining an already successful healthy promotion. Big difference than being the guy keeping WCW or worse yet TNA from oblivion.

 

WWE's numbers were heading the wrong way from 2001-2004. They ran a few MSG shows that drew in the 4,000-5,000 range, and it overall seemed like a company that was fading and didn't have any answers. They got new life and several big years when they elevated Cena and Batista and other guys like Orton and Edge started clicking with the audience.

 

Sting drew the biggest buyrate WCW ever did and was a big part of one of the biggest angles in wrestling history. That trumps anything Edge or Batista have ever done.

[FLIK]

Has anyone gotten in Meltzer's ear about representing the indies in the HOF? The independent wrestling scene in the US has been pretty prominent since the late 90s and I think not including a guy like Christopher Daniels on the ballot is an oversight. Even if you write off the indies as being insignificant as compared to national promotions, there are other guys who have gotten in largely due to their body of work so in that way Daniels deserves to be on there as well not to mention he has worked for national promotion for most of the past 6-7 years and headlined some shows.

I'm one of the bigger Daniels supporters around and fuck, even I think that's insane.

[NintendoLogic]

Buddy Rose isn't on the ballot. Bill Dundee isn't on the ballot. Akira Taue isn't on the ballot. El Dandy isn't on the ballot. One could argue that none of those guys should be in the HoF, but those guys strike me as guys that probably deserve to at least be on a ballot.

 

Chris Daniels strikes me as a guy that should pop up for ballot discussion shortly after the induction of Balls Mahoney.

Funny you should mention Taue. I've been thinking lately that maybe the WON HOF should be like the Rock & Roll HOF and allow multiple inductees. Take Terry Gordy, for example. He's in as a member of the Freebirds, but he also probably merits inclusion as a singles competitor. As for Taue, he might be borderline as a singles guy, but he has a much stronger case as a member of the Holy Demon Army. But Kawada is already in, and in any case, it'd be ludicrous to prioritize Kawada's tag work over his singles career.

[Mad Dog]

I don't think Sting is a HOF guy, but he has a better case than many guys already in. On the slippery slope argument, he's a strong pick, but I hate using that as a determining factor.

This is my point. If Kurt Angle is in, if HHH is going to get in then Sting should be in. His credentials for a HoF spot are a lot stronger than guys already in.

[NintendoLogic]

HHH is already in.

[Sean Liska]

The fact that Sting has to compete with the likes of Edge and Batista for votes really makes me sad.

Sting only spent 2 years in a company as successful as WWE has been over the last decade. I'm not a big proponent now on Batista or Edge, but someone deserves credit besides Cena.

 

They are maintaining an already successful healthy promotion. Big difference than being the guy keeping WCW or worse yet TNA from oblivion.

 

WWE's numbers were heading the wrong way from 2001-2004. They ran a few MSG shows that drew in the 4,000-5,000 range, and it overall seemed like a company that was fading and didn't have any answers. They got new life and several big years when they elevated Cena and Batista and other guys like Orton and Edge started clicking with the audience.

 

Sting drew the biggest buyrate WCW ever did and was a big part of one of the biggest angles in wrestling history. That trumps anything Edge or Batista have ever done.

 

Batista drew the 2nd biggest buyrate in WWE history, and it's a lot harder to do historically good numbers in WWE than WCW. Although there is the issue of international buys inflating things, but it was still huge.