The most historic night in the history of this great sport

[Bix]

No, because pro wrestling has been worked in some form forever. The better question is "When exactly did wrestling being worked go from being a way to fleece gamblers to being a way to make matches more entertaining and create programs that would better draw money than shoots?

[MikeCampbell]

There has to be some stuff that has nothing to do with Hulk Hogan or Vince McMahon, right? Wrestling has existed for over a century and it has been quite prosperous at times.

 

I don't know what "night" it happened in 1972, but obviously, Baba and Inoki breaking from the JWA to form All Japan and New Japan changed the game in Japan.

February for Inoki and October for Baba.

 

Chosyu's jump to All Japan in '85 and Maeda and UWF's NJPW invasion in '86 spring to mind as well as they both changed the style of matches in Japan. Chosyu forced them to quicken the pace, while Maeda forced them to work a more realistic looking style.

 

The '81 Tag League final night, with Hansen's surprise jump. I always liked JD Dunn's analogy that it was the Japanese equivalent at the time of Scott Hall showing up on Nitro.

[FLIK]

There has to be some stuff that has nothing to do with Hulk Hogan or Vince McMahon, right? Wrestling has existed for over a century and it has been quite prosperous at times.

 

I don't know what "night" it happened in 1972, but obviously, Baba and Inoki breaking from the JWA to form All Japan and New Japan changed the game in Japan.

Hmmm, for stuff along that route

 

3 most historic things that happened in the history of joshi (besides it's creation) as far as shaping the entire industry.

 

1) Whenever one of the Matsunaga's had the bright idea of investing all the money they'd made into real estate.

2) Lifting the rule forcing wrestlers to retire by 26

3) Deciding to do interpromotional matches

[JerryvonKramer]

Is there an agreed upon first worked match?

I thought pro wrestling has its origins in carnival side-shows and travelling fares in the late 19th century. Is that true or did I make it up and then believe it?

[jdw]

Not really "historic" in the sense of big impact, but pretty cool:

 

4/16 Tokyo Sumo Hall (New Japan - 11,500 sellout): One night Super Junior Cup tournament--Gedo (WAR) b Dean Malenko (New Japan), Super Delfin (Michinoku Pro) b Shinjiro Ohtani (New Japan), Black Tiger (AAA) b Taka Michinoku (Michinoku Pro), El Samurai (New Japan) b Masayoshi Motegi (Social Pro Wrestling Federation), Ricky Fuji (FMW) b Negro Casas (EMLL), Jushin Liger (New Japan) b Hayabusa (AAA), Gedo b Delfin, Wild Pegasus (New Japan) b Tiger, Great Sasuke (Michinoku Pro) b Samurai, Liger b Fuji, Pegasus b Gedo, Sasuke b Liger, Pegasus b Sasuke to win tournament

 

4/16 Tokyo Budokan Hall (All Japan - 16,300 sellout): Satoru Asako b Kentaro Shiga, Yoshinari Ogawa b Tsuyoshi Kikuchi, Rusher Kimura & Mighty Inoue & Mitsuo Momota b Masao Inoue & Haruka Eigen & Masa Fuchi, Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas b John Nord & The Eagle, Johnny Ace b Tamon Honda, Akira Taue b Johnny Smith, Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama b Giant Baba & Stan Hansen & Takao Omori 24:19, Champion Carnival tournament final: Toshiaki Kawada b Steve Williams 25:48

 

ECW Arena show that night, and Spring Stampede the next night.

 

John

[Mad Dog]

No. That's how it started. They would take a guy around and he'd wrestle the locals at the fair. They would cheat if they came across someone who could win the prize money. Hence the rubes and marks phrases wrestlers and promoters use today.

[khawk20]

There has to be some stuff that has nothing to do with Hulk Hogan or Vince McMahon, right? Wrestling has existed for over a century and it has been quite prosperous at times.

Of course. Hogan-Sheik is the most obvious example of a game-changing night that I could think of. There have been numerous game-changing nights throughout wrestling history, which is how I would interpret the question/statement right off the top of my head.

[Jingus]

The problem about attempting to find an "origin" for pro wrestling is that various pseudo-rassling sports and shows have been around for thousands of years. I'm sure the ancient Greeks probably had some fixed or worked matches in their day. Hell, Shakespeare's As You Like It contains a major plot point about an experienced shooter who plans to seriously hurt his opponent in what's supposed to be a friendly exhibition bout.

[ohtani's jacket]

1) Whenever one of the Matsunaga's had the bright idea of investing all the money they'd made into real estate.

They were simply doing what everyone else did in the bubble economy. Whatever they invested their money in, it wouldn't have much much difference in the long run.

[Guest Slickster]

March 12, 1983: Slaughter/Kernodle vs. Steamboat/Youngblood.

It success inspired Starrcade (and later WrestleMania) and changed the focus of the North American industry toward the supercard and ultimately toward pay-per-view.

[rainmakerrtv]

Just a bit of a sidetrack, was just thinking about the significance of Wrestlemania III.

 

While much is rightly made of the significance of it as the first supercard of it's time (national broadcast, clash of the titans main event, workrate classic in Savage vs. Steamboat, storyline capper in Piper vs. Adonis), I've been thinking recently of its significance as marking the end, or at least the beginning of the end, of the first half of the Hogan Rock 'n' Wrestling Era.

 

One aspect of the card that is often forgotten is the significance of the Brutus Beefcake run-in during the Adonis/Piper match, marking Beefcake's babyface turn. It was an odd sort of passing of the torch from the outgoing Piper to Beefcake, who would parlay the rub he got from saving piper into his new Barber gimmick. Hard as it is to remember now, Beefcake was one of the most popular babyfaces of the second half and his turn could be seen as the point where the second level below-hogan babyfaces of the first half would be phased out or pushed down the card (Steamboat, JYD, Tito Santana, George "the Animal" Steele, to a lesser extend Hillbilly Jim), and the rise of the babyfaces of the second half (Beefcake, Jake The Snake, Hacksaw Duggan, later the Ultimate Warrior). Similarly, most of the old guard heels were gone or fading away (Big John Studd, King Kong Bundy, Muraco, Orndorff, Iron Sheik, Adonis), clearing the way for the heels of the second half who would be showing up over the next year or two or rising from the ranks (Rick Rude, Honky Tonk Man, Ted Dibiase, Mr. Perfect, Big Boss Man).

 

The Hogan vs Andre match could be seen as the climax of the first half of the Hogan era. Hogan had spent the time since he won the belt in high profile feuds with usually monstrous heels (the notable exceptions being the sneaky Piper and the turncoat former best friend Orndorff). For the "biggest wrestling show ever", the main event was all of those feuds rolled into one : Hogan defending the belt against his former best friend, a huge "undefeated" legend backed by the devious Weasel. After that, for the next year Hogan would have runs with more monster heels (One Man Gang, Killer Khan, Bundy again) that never really caught the popular imagination, until Andre eventually came back and took his title. From then on, Hogan would go into a cycle of not having the title, taking some time off to make a movie, moving back into the spotlight to eclipse the current title holder, taking back the title, and then doing little with the title before losing it again.

 

Similarly, Steamboat's victory over Savage was the capper of his WWF career, a glorious revenge victory that saw him win his only WWF gold. His title reign would be cut short and he would be gone after the next Wrestlemania. Piper and Adonis would both be gone after WM III (although Piper would return a couple of years later). In hindsight, there is an overall sense of the changing of the guard.

 

Anyhow, just some thoughts.

[flyonthewall2983]

This is totally subjective, but for me it's Montreal. Plain and simple. Nothing to do with Shawn or Bret, but just what Vince did. I've heard all the theories, arguments, half-truths and conjecture but to me it boils down to one thing. He pulled the curtain back for good. He tore it from the ceiling and set the fucker on fire.

[JerryvonKramer]

Just a bit of a sidetrack, was just thinking about the significance of Wrestlemania III.

 

While much is rightly made of the significance of it as the first supercard of it's time (national broadcast, clash of the titans main event, workrate classic in Savage vs. Steamboat, storyline capper in Piper vs. Adonis), I've been thinking recently of its significance as marking the end, or at least the beginning of the end, of the first half of the Hogan Rock 'n' Wrestling Era.

 

One aspect of the card that is often forgotten is the significance of the Brutus Beefcake run-in during the Adonis/Piper match, marking Beefcake's babyface turn. It was an odd sort of passing of the torch from the outgoing Piper to Beefcake, who would parlay the rub he got from saving piper into his new Barber gimmick. Hard as it is to remember now, Beefcake was one of the most popular babyfaces of the second half and his turn could be seen as the point where the second level below-hogan babyfaces of the first half would be phased out or pushed down the card (Steamboat, JYD, Tito Santana, George "the Animal" Steele, to a lesser extend Hillbilly Jim), and the rise of the babyfaces of the second half (Beefcake, Jake The Snake, Hacksaw Duggan, later the Ultimate Warrior). Similarly, most of the old guard heels were gone or fading away (Big John Studd, King Kong Bundy, Muraco, Orndorff, Iron Sheik, Adonis), clearing the way for the heels of the second half who would be showing up over the next year or two or rising from the ranks (Rick Rude, Honky Tonk Man, Ted Dibiase, Mr. Perfect, Big Boss Man).

 

The Hogan vs Andre match could be seen as the climax of the first half of the Hogan era. Hogan had spent the time since he won the belt in high profile feuds with usually monstrous heels (the notable exceptions being the sneaky Piper and the turncoat former best friend Orndorff). For the "biggest wrestling show ever", the main event was all of those feuds rolled into one : Hogan defending the belt against his former best friend, a huge "undefeated" legend backed by the devious Weasel. After that, for the next year Hogan would have runs with more monster heels (One Man Gang, Killer Khan, Bundy again) that never really caught the popular imagination, until Andre eventually came back and took his title. From then on, Hogan would go into a cycle of not having the title, taking some time off to make a movie, moving back into the spotlight to eclipse the current title holder, taking back the title, and then doing little with the title before losing it again.

 

Similarly, Steamboat's victory over Savage was the capper of his WWF career, a glorious revenge victory that saw him win his only WWF gold. His title reign would be cut short and he would be gone after the next Wrestlemania. Piper and Adonis would both be gone after WM III (although Piper would return a couple of years later). In hindsight, there is an overall sense of the changing of the guard.

 

Anyhow, just some thoughts.

Fantastic post Rainmaker!

 

I think you're right that 1987 is definitely the transition year. With the Andre feud being the real capper to the "rock 'n' wrestling" era.

 

You can witness a sea-change from the cast of characters who were featured in the Hogan cartoon ...

 

 

Just to recap: the faces in that show were Junkyard Dog, Captain Lou Albano, André the Giant, Wendi Richter, Superfly Jimmy Snuka, Hillbilly Jim, and Tito Santana.

 

And the heels were Roddy Piper, Iron Shiek, Nikolai Volkoff, The Fabulous Moolah, Big John Studd, and Mr. Fuji.

 

By the time of Wrestlemania 4 almost all these guys are gone already, on their way out or pushed way down the card.

 

I always thought that Vince had a particular fondness for the 83-7 roster and that's why we see COUNTLESS comebacks and second chances for the names listed above. How many Snuka comebacks did we see? How many times were Sheik and Volkoff given jobs when they had no place on the roster (think Sheik in 91-2 as Col. Mustafa and Volkoff in 94). The Big John Studd comeback in 1989. Albano managing the Headshrinkers in 1994-5. Even Hillybilly Jim made a come back in 1995, for god's sake. If you look at the 2004 Hall of Fame, the first one they did in the modern "big deal" sort of style: JYD, Tito, and Big John Studd were all STRAIGHT in there. Piper, Orndorff, Volkoff and Sheik the very next year.

 

I don't think Vince is ever seen as the sentimental type, but he DEFINITELY has a thing for that group of workers.

 

Incidentally, I think the next transition point or paradigm shift happened in 1993.

 

83-87: Rock n roll wrestling era - as discussed above

 

87-93: Global domination era [can you think of a better phrase?] - you can see the big turning point by contrasting Royal Rumble 93 with Survivor Series 93. By the end of the year most of that roster has gone: biggest WWF stalwart names being Hogan, DiBiase, Tito Santana, Bossman, Earthquake (came back for a brief spell in 94), Bam Bam Bigelow, and Repo Man / Smash. And also Flair. Should be mentioned that on air it was a big transition too. Heenan and Mean Gene Okerlund left around this time as well. Gorilla Monsoon had stopped commentating on the A shows and PPVs. Even Sean Mooney had left (remember Todd Pettingal?) I think 1993 might be an even bigger changing of the guard than 1987.

 

94-97: New generation / cartoon era/ dark age - this was a pretty shitty time in general, where the WWF went hyper-cartoony with the many Doinks, crap like Men on a Mission, the Godwins, "Adam Bomb" all that crap. You had Shawn, Bret and Diesel on top of the card, but the rest of the roster was shocking.

[jdw]

I think the key for Mania III is less what happened in the ring, but what happened outside it:

 

Boatloads of $$$ & Prestige for Vince

 

Shortly after it, you had Crocket's World Tag Champ happily walk away from the belts (and a pretty reasonable push) to head off to VinceLand. Rude wasn't the first, nor the last, and other territories like the AWA had been hammered before. But that one struck me after a "good" 1986 for Crocket that they were out of their league.

 

I know folks at the time pointed to Survivor Series / Startcade as the major gae changer, but Mania III and the aftermath struck me at the time as a fan that he was clear Vince was going to win, and JCP was going to be fringey. It felt like for years after, it was just the long, slow defeat after Mania: we couldn't come close to that, and every in JCP who wasn't inner circle knew it as well.

 

John

[Loss]

To that point, what's amazing is the box office the summer after Mania. Crockett was booming because War Games drew, to a point where they were outdrawing the WWF in some markets. The Crockett inner circle seemed to take this as a sign that they were overtaking Vince, but in the WON at the time, Dave even pointed out that the difference is that the WWF still had tons of untapped programs by fall, where in the NWA, by fall, War Games would be over and nothing new would be on the horizon. That proved itself accurate, as fall of '87 saw a major decline in television ratings and arena business for JCP. Not a good lead-in to Starrcade.

[khawk20]

I think the key for Mania III is less what happened in the ring, but what happened outside it:

 

Boatloads of $$$ & Prestige for Vince

 

Shortly after it, you had Crocket's World Tag Champ happily walk away from the belts (and a pretty reasonable push) to head off to VinceLand. Rude wasn't the first, nor the last, and other territories like the AWA had been hammered before. But that one struck me after a "good" 1986 for Crocket that they were out of their league.

 

I know folks at the time pointed to Survivor Series / Startcade as the major gae changer, but Mania III and the aftermath struck me at the time as a fan that he was clear Vince was going to win, and JCP was going to be fringey. It felt like for years after, it was just the long, slow defeat after Mania: we couldn't come close to that, and every in JCP who wasn't inner circle knew it as well.

 

John

I agree with this post 100%. III kicked the WWF into a whole other stratosphere. As much as we wanted to believe that the other promotions could maintain or even gain on the WWF, I think most of us knew it wasn't the reality of the situation after III came and went.

[smkelly]

In terms of just workrate, I'd go with 4/16/94, for pretty obvious reasons.

 

In terms of everything, I haven't a single idea.

[goodhelmet]

In terms of just workrate, I'd go with 4/16/94, for pretty obvious reasons.

 

In terms of everything, I haven't a single idea.

Elaborate

[smkelly]

"In terms of everything" = things like gates (WM 3), importance to continued existence (WM 1), or building foundations for future ideas (Steamboat/Youngblood-Slaughter/Kernodle). Any one of those three could be a viable answer, but as usual, my bias is towards actual in-ring product, ie 4/16/94 (Super J Cup and Kawada-Williams).

[Loss]

The best day for in-ring ever is an interesting conversation. 4/16/94 is being mentioned because of the praise the matches have already gotten, but anyone who has the '92 yearbook who is paying attention knows that 2/29/92 should be in the conversation too -- great matches in the U.S. (SuperBrawl II), Mexico (UWA trios match) and Japan (Kanehara/Maeda in UWFI) on the same day.