Break it down 1: Best faces

[JerryvonKramer]

Ok, I've been taking in the old Raven Secrets of the Ring shoots and thought it might be an idea to discuss who is best at each of the components we get in a typical match structure.

 

So here I want your picks for who you think was or is particularly excellent at each of the following things. If you can give examples of what they do well that would be fantastic. Thought it could be fun to see what sort of things people value. So let's start as the Raven series does with faces:

 

Best shine

 

Best selling (heat segment)

 

Best hope spots

 

Best fire

 

Best comeback

 

I might as well give some of my own picks:

 

Best shine: this is a very tough one to think of, but I'm going to say pre-Crow Sting. The crowd was so hot for him and he'd have the energy of Warrior running in with good-looking offence and the heel was almost guaranteed to draw heat from pulling out a cheap shot to break his momentum.

 

Best selling: got to be Steamboat hasn't it? I'd actually like to mention Hogan here though. At least in the 80s, he spent 90% of his matches getting beaten up and I can't think of many better at drawing the sympathy of the crowd. He always looked like he was really hurt up until hulking up. He might not have flung himself around the ring or taken punches as if they were gun shots like Steamboat, but he did always sell effectively and did enough to make both his opponent look good and to have the crowd 100% on his side.

 

Best hope spots: Again I find it hard to look past Steamboat here, and also late 80s/ early 90s Sting, but I'll try to be more interesting. For the sheer amount of different ones he has, how about Shawn Michaels? He was great at these when he was in The Rockers, but is at his best when working against big men -- like a Kane or an Undertaker, when he seems like he's completely dominated.

 

Best fire: I've been watching All Japan recently and I like Jumbo's fire, but it's difficult to look past Terry Funk for this. To be honest, I could have said Funk for all of them, but don't think there's a better fired up face than Funk in early 80s AJPW.

 

Best comeback: Boringly, I'm going to go with Hogan. It's so iconic that I can't think of who might do it better. Look forward to seeing the suggestions of others.

[goodhelmet]

I like the topic but not the way you are attempting to break it down segment by segment.

[Loss]

But ... my answers would be Ricky Morton, Ricky Morton, Ricky Morton, Ricky Morton and Ricky Morton. In that order.

[El-P]

Onita, Onita, Onita, Onita and Onita.

You can mix in some Chigusa Nagayo at any point.

 

(yeah, I'm petty, but I'm disapointed not to have thought of Loss' answer before he did)

[Tim Cooke]

Add in Lawler, Tommy Rogers, El Hijo del Santo (best comeback), MX (hope spots - since they basically set up the opposing teams hope spots in their matches).

[Kostka]

I'd go with Lawler for best comebacks. The dropping the strap was pretty iconic and featured better (obviously) punches and selling than Hogans.

[El-P]

I don't care much for any comeback that consist of no-selling. Lawler dropping the strap equals Warrior shaking the ropes to me.

[MJH]

Best comeback is Misawa.

 

Best fire is Kobashi.

 

Best selling? Too many to name. Steamboat is great theatrically, ie; live, selling to the crowd, but how often are you convinced he's in actual pain? Tweener/De Facto Face Hokuto was sensational. Kobashi, Misawa could sell. I don't think there's a better rag doll to get beaten up on than Toyota. Kikuchi is great too. Morton... and you can't overlook the uber-successful babyfaces like Hogan, Chigusa, etc etc... whose act often hinged on it.

 

Best shine/hopespots: Aside from WWE set-shines/etc, it's often a combination of both guys bringing spots. But who I think Kobashi is the best offensive babyface without doubt.

[El-P]

Best selling? Too many to name. Steamboat is great theatrically, ie; live, selling to the crowd, but how often are you convinced he's in actual pain?

He's really the face equivalent of terry Funk drunk selling or Dick Murdock's antics, or Hennig's überbumping. Bret Hart was a much more realistic seller than Steamboat.

 

Best selling ? Kawada. Hokuto.

[Childs]

Rey is really great at hope spots and pacing a comeback. He's the quintessential babyface of the last 10 years.

[NintendoLogic]

I would distinguish between "selling" and "babyface selling." The former is intended to convincingly convey pain and vulnerability. The latter is intended to generate sympathy and build anticipation for the comeback. The two often overlap, but they don't have to. Kawada was great at the former, not so much at the latter. Not that he couldn't, it just wasn't what he was going for.

 

Also, I would submit that Warrior and Goldberg had the best shines. It's just that most of their matches consisted entirely of the shine segment.

[Loss]

The first 10 minutes of every 20 minute-long Rock & Roll Express match has tons of heel lack of coordination spots, good offense and more often than not some good comedy too. That's my reason for picking Ricky Morton in that category.

[Dylan Waco]

I think best shine is the RnR Express for the reason Loss mentions. I don't think you can give that entirely to Ricky because Robert was in on a lot of that and the double teams were often the biggest "pop" spots during the shine segments.

 

Agree with child on Rey and hope spots

 

Best babyface selling is Morton, though Terry Funk is right on his heels.

 

Fire and comeback have a lot of contenders. I am a huge mark for Terry Funk and think he was great at both. Lawler would be right there.

[Mad Dog]

I don't care much for any comeback that consist of no-selling. Lawler dropping the strap equals Warrior shaking the ropes to me.

I liked how Sting always did the no sell. He'd beat the hell out of the guy for a few seconds but would go back to selling all the damage if the heel withstood his flurry of offense. I dislike how Shawn Michaels did it. He'd do the kip up and suddenly the whole match leading up to that never happened.

[NintendoLogic]

Misawa was good at that too. There'd be times when he'd hulk up and elbow the fuck out of the other guy, but he'd go back to selling once the adrenaline rush passed.

[Paul Jacobi]

I don't care much for any comeback that consist of no-selling. Lawler dropping the strap equals Warrior shaking the ropes to me.

I liked how Sting always did the no sell. He'd beat the hell out of the guy for a few seconds but would go back to selling all the damage if the heel withstood his flurry of offense. I dislike how Shawn Michaels did it. He'd do the kip up and suddenly the whole match leading up to that never happened.

 

 

Having watched a ton of Shawn, this isn't exactly true. If so, it's more in his 90's run than his comeback, where he'd always go back to selling (usually clutching his back, etc)

 

I also think singling out Shawn is unfair, since that's practically main WWF/E babyface 101 to sell, kind of, if not totally blow it off, then go to the finish. See Hogan, Warrior, Bret, Cena, Austin, Rock, etc. That's their style.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Loss]

After recently watching all of his 1996 footage (the yearbook has every single PPV title defense and notable TV match from Shawn that year), I actually agree with Paul. He wasn't as effective as a babyface for many reasons that would derail this thread to get into, but the no-selling after the comeback wasn't really the issue with him most of the time, nor was it the way that matches were laid out. I think the bigger issue is that Shawn just wasn't likable enough to be a great babyface, and him trying to be likable felt forced.

 

I can see why Shawn spent most of his time as a singles star as a babyface, meaning I see why Vince thought that was a better fit for him. But really, being a heel played to his strengths so much more. I like Shawn during 1996, for example, and thought he was a good champ who did his best when challenged with terrible booking, weak opponents and a crowd that was turning on him because of how he was presented. But I like Shawn in 1997 as a self-absorbed, disrespectful riot starter so much more. He was definitely a very good babyface at times and it's not insane to put him in the conversation, but for me, I can think of so many guys who pull those things off better. Shawn was miscast for almost his entire career; I wish he had spent more of his peak years as a heel.

[ohtani's jacket]

The most important category should be least nauseating.

[El-P]

I can see why Shawn spent most of his time as a singles star as a babyface, meaning I see why Vince thought that was a better fit for him. But really, being a heel played to his strengths so much more. I like Shawn during 1996, for example, and thought he was a good champ who did his best when challenged with terrible booking, weak opponents and a crowd that was turning on him because of how he was presented. But I like Shawn in 1997 as a self-absorbed, disrespectful riot starter so much more. He was definitely a very good babyface at times and it's not insane to put him in the conversation, but for me, I can think of so many guys who pull those things off better. Shawn was miscast for almost his entire career; I wish he had spent more of his peak years as a heel.

Agreed. Shawn was an asshole in real life, and great wrestling characters are an extension of what you really are. Shawn as a face could work for a minuet or two because he was flashy. But his personnality was just repulsive, he was a whiner, a cheater, a manipulative little jack-off bitch. That's why I also think his best run as far as character goes remains Summer/Fall of 1997. He was much more fun as a heel than a face.

[Mad Dog]

I don't care much for any comeback that consist of no-selling. Lawler dropping the strap equals Warrior shaking the ropes to me.

I liked how Sting always did the no sell. He'd beat the hell out of the guy for a few seconds but would go back to selling all the damage if the heel withstood his flurry of offense. I dislike how Shawn Michaels did it. He'd do the kip up and suddenly the whole match leading up to that never happened.

 

 

Having watched a ton of Shawn, this isn't exactly true. If so, it's more in his 90's run than his comeback, where he'd always go back to selling (usually clutching his back, etc)

 

I also think singling out Shawn is unfair, since that's practically main WWF/E babyface 101 to sell, kind of, if not totally blow it off, then go to the finish. See Hogan, Warrior, Bret, Cena, Austin, Rock, etc. That's their style.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

 

He was just the example I could come up with. I hated how the Rock did it too. I didn't mind Hogan though, when he missed the leg drop he always ran out of steam and usually lost. Granted, that seemed to happen in WCW more than the WWF.

[Matt D]

My favorite no-sell comeback of all time was Piper's. He sold it as if he was out of control and punch-drunk. I buy it more somehow.

[NintendoLogic]

Shawn was an asshole in real life, and great wrestling characters are an extension of what you really are.

If this was the standard, there would be no babyfaces in wrestling.

[El-P]

Shawn was an asshole in real life, and great wrestling characters are an extension of what you really are.

If this was the standard, there would be no babyfaces in wrestling.

 

[FLIK]

Re Shawn, i'll just say that watching in my early teens in 96-97 when I didn't have the internet or know any behind the sceens "well he's REALLY not a nice guy" type stuff I had no problem buying him as a face and was a big fan.

 

I haven't really gone back and re-watched a ton of that stuff since it aired so not sure my opinion would change any today either.

[El-P]

Re Shawn, i'll just say that watching in my early teens in 96-97 when I didn't have the internet or know any behind the sceens "well he's REALLY not a nice guy" type stuff I had no problem buying him as a face and was a big fan.

I had been a big fan of his first heel turn, and wasn't thrilled to watch him as a face. Not that I knew he was a dickhead in real life, but things never clicked to me with Shawn as a babyface in 95/96. He was just a natural heel.