The JTTS

[JerryvonKramer]

All the talk of Tito recently has made me think more about the role of the JTTS. Now typically, this guy was not a scrub, but a "name" who had been in the game for a long time winding down his career putting over younger guys:

 

Tito in 93

Greg Valentine in WCW

Virgil's entire career after the DiBiase feud

Iron Sheik as Col. Mustafa

Hercules after the 1980s

Dino Bravo in 91/2

Terry Taylor in most of his major fed incarnations

Nikolai Volkoff in 1994

Ronnie Garvin in most of his WWF run

 

You get the picture.

 

Now, I've often wondered about what is THE POINT of having this lower midcard level? It sort of makes sense if you book it like so:

 

Show 1: Greg Valentine over jobber

 

Same show: Up and comer over jobber

 

Next week: Up and comer over Greg Valentine

 

But so many times, that never happened. The JTTS would often NOT get any jobber matches. Much more likely:

 

Show 1: Up and comer over jobber

 

Show 2: Up and comer over Greg Valentine

 

Show 3: Up and comer over jobber / another JTTS

 

Now, to ME all that does is make Greg Valentine look like a jobber.

 

I've never fully understood the importance of a JTTS.

 

Take a look at almost any JTTS match. They ALL have one thing in common: total lack of heat. These are guys that are so far away from any push that they don't give a shit about them.

 

In a funny way, the crowd care MORE about the more vocal jobbers - your Iron Mike Sharpes - or your token offence face jobbers - your SD Joneses. If SD Jones made a comeback in, say, 1986, the crowd would love it. If Virgil made a comeback in 1994, they'd say "who cares?"

 

Point I'm making is that the JTTS seems counter intuitive. Who is it really helping?

 

I can understand this:

 

All TV appearances: Greg Valentine beats jobbers

 

PPV appearances: Greg Valentine puts over up and comers

 

THAT makes sense. That's setting someone up as still a legit threat and having them put over another guy.

 

I don't see what Valentine putting someone over on TV is doing.

 

Any thoughts?

[Al]

It's more of a showcase, IMO. The JTTS match doesn't give a rub to the up and comer necessarily. Rather, the up and comer is getting an extended look thanks to a more competitive squash match. The wrestler gets 5-15 minutes of television time, gets to show off more of his arsenal and wrestling skills, becomes more familiar to the audience when he wrestles a competitive match. Plus it has the benefit that you can put a competitive match on a syndicated show without shaking up the landscape. Randy Savage vs. Koko B. Ware. The audience gets a ten minute match, they pop a bit for Koko, the Macho King wins and nothing has changed. But you've filled a spot and kept interest during the rest of the show with its jobber matches and interviews.

[Mad Dog]

You get a rub from the JTTS if the announcers do their job.

 

I'll use Greg Valentine as an example. You talk up how he's a former Intercontinental and former Tag Team Champion and how he's been in there and beaten some of the top talent in the world. Then you talk about how it would be a real feather in the cap of the up and comer. Then in following weeks you talk about how up and comer made a real statement by beating a guy like Valentine. You also need Valentine to have won enough on television recently to make it seem like he's still relevant though.

 

When I had 24/7 the role of the JTTS was a lot more clear. They'd play arena shows and the opening match always had S.D. Jones in the late 70s and early 80s and that transitioned to Lanny Poffo in the mid 80s and then transitioned to Koko in the late 80s, early 90s. So in that sense, those three were the openers that were over and would warm the crowd up by jobbing to the latest heel climbing the ranks and get everyone hyped for the rest of the show.

[flyonthewall2983]

Is this just a term used by smart fans or is it backstage lingo as well?

[Mad Dog]

It's strictly net lingo as far as I know.

[JerryvonKramer]

I didn't know that. I guess it figures. No one is going to tell a worker "Hey, Tito, you're strictly a jobber to the stars now".

 

I wonder IF, however, the likes of Vince or Dusty or any other booker used the term in the office between themselves.

[khawk20]

Some ended up being JTTS because the WWF paid more than where they were coming from as established stars. Brad Rheingans and DJ Petersen going from the AWA to the WWF are a good example of that.

[ButchReedMark]

I wonder IF, however, the likes of Vince or Dusty or any other booker used the term in the office between themselves.

I'd doubt it. Doesn't seem like the kind of thing they, or anyone I can think of booking wrestling at that time, would say to me.

[Mad Dog]

I think they typically referred to jobber matches as enhancement work or enhancement talent.

[jdw]

It's strictly net lingo as far as I know.

JTTS is a hardcore fan term as far as I know. Don't recall if it was in some of the newsletters before it hit the usenet (rec.sport.pro-wrestling).

 

Jobber is of course a term wrestlers use and didn't come from the sheets or usenet.

 

Folks came up with JTTS to describe the SD Jones type of jobber, though years after SD ran his course.

 

John

[rainmakerrtv]

It's strictly net lingo as far as I know.

JTTS is a hardcore fan term as far as I know. Don't recall if it was in some of the newsletters before it hit the usenet (rec.sport.pro-wrestling).

 

Jobber is of course a term wrestlers use and didn't come from the sheets or usenet.

 

Folks came up with JTTS to describe the SD Jones type of jobber, though years after SD ran his course.

 

John

 

SD Jones always seemed more of a full on jobber rather than JTTS, albeit a high level one with name recognition. I'd figure the JTTS as more Tito Santana post-Strike Force, or Hillbilly Jim in his later years.

[jdw]

SD and the Italian Stallion were at the top of the jobber food chain. They'd do jobs to the stars, if they were in tags it would be their partner eating the job. Stallion would work some house shows if I recall correctly when JCP worked a split crew, and would get wins over similar low guys and of course job to the stars.

 

John

[rainmakerrtv]

SD and the Italian Stallion were at the top of the jobber food chain. They'd do jobs to the stars, if they were in tags it would be their partner eating the job. Stallion would work some house shows if I recall correctly when JCP worked a split crew, and would get wins over similar low guys and of course job to the stars.

I get what you are saying, but I would still consider SD a full on high level jobber. I recall somebody doing a search for any SD victories, and only found a couple, which were pretty clearly jobber vs jobber matches on house shows. For me, the JTTS would get regular squash match victories on the TV shows, but when the higher lever guys had matches with them on a TV show, you had no doubt that the JTTS was going to lose.

 

To put this in a bit of perspective :

I first watched WWF wrestling in 1985, between Wrestlemania and WM2, then stopped when they changed around the tv shows on our local station, then started up again in 1987 around Survivor Series and have been watching wrestling ever since. Now, that first period of watching wrestling had a bit of a warped perspective. First of all, one of the shows I watched I was convinced was AWA, but it was actually Quebec International, because of the presence of AWA champions Rick Martel and the Road Warriors. But the WWF show was particularly bizarre because it was Maple Leaf Wrestling, which was a Canadian only WWF show (when I started watching again in 1987, it was the same show as Superstars). On this show (which I later found out was taped in Hamilton), guys who were jobbers in the rest of the WWF were a lot higher level. Lanny Poffo, George Wells, even Steve Gatorwolf, all regularly won matches. I was actually distressed when I visited my grandparents who got WWF shows from the US and saw George Wells (of whom I was a big fan) as part of a jobbing tag team. In this environment, I still never saw SD Jones win a match (although he did get a couple of interview segments).

[Log]

With the exception of the very top guys (Cena, Orton, etc.) aren't pretty much everyone JTTS's nowadays?

[Mad Dog]

It's strictly net lingo as far as I know.

JTTS is a hardcore fan term as far as I know. Don't recall if it was in some of the newsletters before it hit the usenet (rec.sport.pro-wrestling).

 

Jobber is of course a term wrestlers use and didn't come from the sheets or usenet.

 

Folks came up with JTTS to describe the SD Jones type of jobber, though years after SD ran his course.

 

John

 

SD Jones always seemed more of a full on jobber rather than JTTS, albeit a high level one with name recognition. I'd figure the JTTS as more Tito Santana post-Strike Force, or Hillbilly Jim in his later years.

 

S.D. Jones was a JTTS in the 70s but settled more into a high level jobber as the 80s progressed. But there was a point where he beat jobbers and some low level mid-carders.

[jdw]

Here are two data sets.

 

The first are SD's known matches from just January. I don't want to run it into the ground with the full year or even half a year: that would be a lot of stuff. But this is a pretty reasonable example.

 

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/primetime86.htm

 

WWF @ New Haven, CT - Coliseum - January 6, 1986

SD Jones defeated Terry Gibbs

 

WWF @ Poughkeepsie, NY - Mid-Hudson Civic Center - January 7, 1986

All American Wrestling - 2/2/86: SD Jones pinned the Gladiator at 3:35 with a headbutt

Championship Wrestling - 2/1/86: The Iron Sheik & Nikolai Volkoff (w/ Freddie Blassie) defeated Jim Powers & SD Jones at 2:43 when Powers submitted to Sheik's Camel Clutch

 

WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - January 11, 1986 (19,710; sell out)

Televised on the PRISM Network

Hercules defeated SD Jones

 

WWF @ Toronto, Ontario - Maple Leaf Gardens - January 12, 1986

SD Jones defeated Moondog Spot

 

WWF @ Brantford, Ontario - Civic Centre - January 13, 1986

Maple Leaf Wrestling - 2/8/86: Terry Funk (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned SD Jones at 3:37 with a clothesline after Jones became distracted by Hart

 

WWF @ Detroit, MI - Joe Louis Arena - January 17, 1986 (20,000; sell out)

SD Jones pinned Terry Gibb

 

WWF @ Landover, MD - Capital Centre - January 18, 1986

Prime Time Wrestling - 2/3/86: SD Jones pinned Rene Goulet at 12:23 with a headbutt

 

WWF @ Richfield, OH - Coliseum - January 19, 1986

SD Jones defeated Rene Goulet

 

WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - January 20, 1986 (4,500)

SD Jones fought Tiger Chung Lee to a time-limit draw

 

WWF @ Fresno, CA - January 22, 1986

Hercules defeated SD Jones

 

WWF @ Anaheim, CA - Convention Center - January 23, 1986

King Tonga defeated SD Jones

 

WWF @ Houston, TX - Summit - January 24, 1986 (10,000)

Hercules vs SD Jones

 

WWF @ South Bend, IN - Athletic & Convocation Center - January 25, 1986

Hercules defeated SD Jones

 

WWF @ Lake Placid, NY - Olympic Center - January 29, 1986

Lanny Poffo vs. SD Jones

Some thoughts:

 

He worked on a fair number of shows rather than just come in for the tapings and do jobs.

 

On the house shows, he typically beat lower ranked jobbers such as Terry Gibbs.

 

Rene Goulet, Moondog Spot and Tiger Chung Lee are sort of at the same level as SD. Tiger was sort of the top heel at that level, then probably Spot. Goulet was on his way to being a road agent. SD as a face would beat Goulet, which he'd split things up a bit with Spot and Lee.

 

With the stars on house show, Jones was typical in with newer guys coming in or guys between programs. So in this month he had matches with Tonga/Haku and Herc, putting them over.

 

Poffo was also a JTTS level guy.

 

The long win over Goulet that aired on Primetime wasn't unusual. You'd get JTTS matches on Primetime.

 

At the TV tapings for what aired in syndication, he would job... or his team would job. Though there is the win over the Gladiator on All American Wrestling.

 

Nothing out of the ordinary here for what I remember from the time period.

 

* * * * * * * * *

 

The second data set is s 1986 Primtime, at least what Graham has compiled so far. Looks like he's missing 5 or so shows, and possible a few others are incomplete. Still, it's a pretty good set of results.

 

The value in it is that Primetime aired a lot of house show matches. They were selective on airing top of the card matches, so you'd get a lot of mid-card stuff and undercard stuff from house shows. So it gives an idea of what SD was doing through out the year without having to sift through card after card of results.

 

Another way of doing this would probably be to look at the MSG, Philly and Boston cards. It's 30+ cards. He's not going to be on all of them, but one might find 10+ results for him. They all would be non-TV jobber matches, so it might be an even truer view into how he was booked. I find this a bit more useful because it goes outside just those three arenas, and also pulls in some of the syndication matches that got re-aired on Primetime./

 

2/3/86:

SD Jones pinned Rene Goulet at 12:23 with a headbutt (1/18/86; Capital Centre)

 

4/8/86:

Don Muraco & Mr. Fuji defeated SD Jones & King Tonga at 14:36 when Muraco pinned Jones with the tombstone (Global Warning DVD) (2/28/86; Sydney, Australia; Entertainment Center)

 

5/26/86:

Bret Hart pinned SD Jones with a backbreaker (5/19/86; Madison Square Garden)

 

6/9/86:

SD Jones & Paul Roma defeated the Menace & Jim Haley at 3:50 when Roma pinned Haley with a powerslam (5/12/86; Poughkeepsie, NY; Mid-Hudson Civic Center)

 

7/7/86:

Harley Race pinned SD Jones at 4:45 with a powerslam (Race's return after a 6-year absence) (5/4/86; Maple Leaf Gardens)

 

7/21/86:

SD Jones & Paul Roma defeated Mike Brown & Paul Berger when Roma pinned Brown after being thrown by Jones at 4:55 (6/24/86; Poughkeepsie, NY; Mid-Hudson Civic Center)

 

8/4/86:

SD Jones pinned Rusty Brooks with a reverse sunset roll up at 3:10 (12/17/85; Poughkeepsie, NY; Mid-Hudson Civic Center)

 

8/25/86:

SD Jones & Paul Roma defeated Gino Carabello & Terry Gibbs when Roma pinned Carabello after being thrown by Jones at 5:29 (8/5/86; Poughkeepsie, NY; Mid-Hudson Civic Center)

 

10/9/86:

SD Jones pinned Mr. X at 8:09 with a standing headbutt from the middle turnbuckle (9/22/86; Madison Square Garden)

 

10/21/86:

SD Jones & Paul Roma defeated the Menace & Jim Haley at 3:50 when Roma pinned Haley with a powerslam (5/12/86; Poughkeepsie, NY; Mid-Hudson Civic Center - reaired)

 

11/3/86

Brutus Beefcake pinned SD Jones at 5:35 with a running kneelift (10/19/86; Houston, TX; Summit)

 

11/11/86:

SD Jones pinned Moondog Spot at 9:33 with a headbutt (10/20/86; Madison Square Garden)

 

12/17/86:

Adrian Adonis (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated SD Jones via disqualification at 2:13 when Roddy Piper - who was watching from ringside - attacked Adonis; after the bout, Piper and Adonis had to be seperated by several wrestlers (Wrestling Challenge - 11/20/86; Rockford, IL; Metro Centre)

 

12/23/86:

SD Jones pinned Iron Mike Sharpe at 8:25 with a backslide (12/6/86; Boston Garden)

Some thoughts:

 

I'd forgotten the SD & Power JTTS Tag Team push. Wins of straight jobber teams on three different TV tapings that made it over to Primetime.

 

Win over Rusty Brooks in Poughkeepsie would have been a TV taping.

 

Similar collection of SD wins over other jobbers at house shows: Goulet (Cap Centre), Mr. X (MSG), Spot (MSG) and Iron Mike Sharpe (MSG). That again gives us a little flavor of how he was used on house shows when not facing a star.

 

Similar collection of loses to stars on house shows: eating the fall when teaming with Tonga opposite Muraco & Fuji, Bret (MSG), Race (Maple Leaf), Beefcake (Houston).

 

Similar collection of TV jobs: Adonis on Challenge.

 

* * * * * * * *

 

Overall, that what I typically thought of as a JTTS rather than just a Jobber.

 

John

[rainmakerrtv]

Didn't he also tag with Andre at least once against the Heenan Family? Yeah, I guess then he would be more JTTS.

 

Was Lanny Poffo for any significant period JTTS rather than upper level jobber? He was pretty much just a job guy when I got back into watching wrestling , but in more recently seeing footage from slightly before that period, I did see he was in at least one notable angle match however peripherally (a 6 man with the Can-Am Express vs the Dream Team and Adrian Adonis that laid some ground work for the later Brutus Beefcake face turn.)

[PeteF3]

Poffo had a gimmick (poetry and Frisbees), a nickname, and did get some house show wins (specifically I remember seeing him win on Prime Time over Jose Estrada and Sika). Even in quick syndie matches he got an offensive flurry that a regular scrub wouldn't get. That's enough for him to definitely be at SD's level, even before the Genius push.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think both SD Jones and Lanny Poffo in 80s WWF were either the highest-level jobbers or the lowest-level JTTS. I don't think SD Jones was that far above Iron Mike Sharpe and I bet if jdw did a similar break down of results for 1986, we'd see a few wins for Sharpe too. Poffo has a stronger case because he had a very distinctive style and a gimmick and mic time. He was more of a JTTS than a jobber, whereas I'd argue SD Jones was more of a pure jobber than JTTS.

 

To make a comparison:

 

Virgil in 1992 was pretty much a JTTS and by 1993 he was a low-level JTTS.

 

But Virgil in 92/3 was still ABOVE the level of SD Jones or Lanny Poffo in the mid-80s.

 

So if Jones and Poffo were either side of the jobber/ JTTS borderline in 1986, who were the JTTS of that time? Let me have a look at the roster on Solie.

 

http://www.solie.org/wwf86.txt

 

(interestingly, SD Jones is not listed on the roster, but Poffo is)

 

 

Jimmy Jack Funk

Billy Jack Haynes

Paul Roma

Jim Powers

Koko B. Ware

The Killer Bees

Tony Garea (on his way out)

 

Even though he is not listed, I know the fed were using former Tag champ Gentleman Jerry Valiant as a JTTS around this time - he jobs, for example, to Uncle Elmer on one of the early SNMEs.

 

I don't know what Valiant's deal was though. He may have been brought in on one-off deals to to jobs.

 

Bottomline: ANY of the above would be going over SD Jones or Lanny Poffo one on one.

 

And ANY of the above would be jobbing to the likes of Dino Bravo, Hercules,Corporal Kirshener, or Nikolia Volkoff.

 

Fast forward a few years and those same names - plus Greg Valentine and Tito Santana - would be at the same sort of JTTS level.

 

Incidentally, I think the roster was STRONGER around 1988-1992 sort of period. The 86 roster was thin in comparison. I mean if Greg Valentine and Tito are at the BOTTOM of your card, that's a pretty strong roster.

 

On that note, over in JCP, I think the roster was always thinner until the Turner buyout. So in 1986, you've got quite a stacked upper midcard and main event roster, but then there's pretty much NO ONE at JTTS or lower midcard level.

 

Watching the horseman set, there's a lot of pure scrubs jobbers in there. Sam Houston was probably a midcarder strictly speaking.

 

They had A LOT more guys at the SD Jones sort of "top jobber" level: your Pistol Pez Whatleys, Rocky Kings, and Italian Stallions.

 

I'm prepared to be proved wrong by stats, but I don't think ANY of those guys ever got TV wins ever.

[Mad Dog]

On that note, over in JCP, I think the roster was always thinner until the Turner buyout. So in 1986, you've got quite a stacked upper midcard and main event roster, but then there's pretty much NO ONE at JTTS or lower midcard level.

 

Watching the horseman set, there's a lot of pure scrubs jobbers in there. Sam Houston was probably a midcarder strictly speaking.

You had to watch all of the JCP television to see the whole roster. You really just saw the top acts on World Championship Wrestling but if you really break down the roster in 1985-86 it was fairly huge.

 

Sam Houston actually got a pretty sizable push in JCP. He won the Mid-Atlantic Heavyweight Championship when they were trying to make that belt matter again.

[jdw]

I think both SD Jones and Lanny Poffo in 80s WWF were either the highest-level jobbers or the lowest-level JTTS. I don't think SD Jones was that far above Iron Mike Sharpe and I bet if jdw did a similar break down of results for 1986, we'd see a few wins for Sharpe too.

Sharpe was a heel JTTS.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that we need to take out 1990s mindset and set it aside when looking at the 80s.

 

There were tons of pure jobber matches on TV in the 80s.

 

As the 90s moved along, there were fewer pure jobber matches, and former "stars" effectively became the JTTS. Kanyon and Spike Holly were the JTTS guys by the end of the 90s, but they actually had tv pushes as characters, and got wins and programs over guys at their level.

 

In the 80s, guys like SD and Sharpe and Horowitz were never pushed like even a Kanyon or a Holly was. Just a different beast. On the other hand, they were working around the horn, jobbing to the stars and working more competitive with guys on their level. The WWF was running three crews at the time: lots of spots on cards.

 

 

Poffo has a stronger case because he had a very distinctive style and a gimmick and mic time. He was more of a JTTS than a jobber, whereas I'd argue SD Jones was more of a pure jobber than JTTS.

Before the heel turn, he was a JTTS. I suspect that if we looked at his matches in 1986 we'll find essentially the same thing as SD. The primary difference would be that Lanny would have more tv squash match wins against straight jobbers than SD did.

 

 

To make a comparison:

 

Virgil in 1992 was pretty much a JTTS and by 1993 he was a low-level JTTS.

 

But Virgil in 92/3 was still ABOVE the level of SD Jones or Lanny Poffo in the mid-80s.

Virgil got a push to challenge Bret on TV soon after Bret won the title in what another poster reminded us was Bret's "fighting champion" push.

 

Virgil was a mid-card / undercard guy in 1992:

 

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/92.htm

 

He had programs with guys like Repo and Skinner. He got pure squash matches beating the real jobbers. He actually looked like he was programmed twice with Shawn, once right before Shawn won the IC.

 

If he was a JTTS, it was purely by the 90s definition where Jobbers were going away. By 1993 you had Raw, and the WWF started to book TV a bit differently. They also were in the process over the course of the early 1990s in scaling back the house show business significantly: from three crews to two crews and eventually to just one. They're not really a one-to-one comp with guys in the 90s.

 

So if Jones and Poffo were either side of the jobber/ JTTS borderline in 1986, who were the JTTS of that time? Let me have a look at the roster on Solie.

 

http://www.solie.org/wwf86.txt

 

(interestingly, SD Jones is not listed on the roster, but Poffo is)

 

 

Jimmy Jack Funk

On the hell side, yes.

 

 

Billy Jack Haynes

No. Billy got a push. Wins over Beefcake, Sheik, Orton, Herc, Adonis, Volkoff, Kamala (right as Kamala's feud with Hogan started) and Muraco. Got TV challenges of Savage for the IC and didn't job.

 

The feud with Herc was pushed into 1987, including a match at Mania at a time when they didn't give JTTS singles matches. He was pushed all through 1987, and started 1988 teaming with Patera feuding against Demolition.

 

Billy was a midcarder. WWF midcard faces tend to win as many as they lose.

 

Paul Roma

Jim Powers

They were JTTS similar to SD. They then got a tag push as low ranked face team. Watch their match with Arn & Tully: they don't work like JTTS, and instead pretty much dominate the match in annoying fashion. I'd put the tag team at the low end of undercard/midcard. Before that they were prelim / JTTS guys.

 

 

Koko B. Ware

Not in 1986. Same as Haynes: he got a push. Lots of wins over "stars", and even got to challenge Savage on a house show. Undercard/midcard guy who got pushed.

 

 

The Killer Bees

Not at all. Their first match of the year was challenging the for the Tag Title on a Kiel show... and they didn't job to the Dream Team. It wasn't their only title shot of the year. They beat the Dream Team regularly when they dropped the titles. The unending feud with the Hart Foundation, and they didn't lose all of them. Matches with Sheki & Volkoff when they were pushed.

 

The Bees were a very pushed tag team for years.

 

Tony Garea (on his way out)

Yes. Didn't work a lot, though.

 

Even though he is not listed, I know the fed were using former Tag champ Gentleman Jerry Valiant as a JTTS around this time - he jobs, for example, to Uncle Elmer on one of the early SNMEs.

 

I don't know what Valiant's deal was though. He may have been brought in on one-off deals to to jobs.

Jerry worked very little in 1986: well under 20 known matches... it may be under 10 since I'm going through the Ctrl+F really fast.

 

 

Bottomline: ANY of the above would be going over SD Jones or Lanny Poffo one on one.

Garea wouldn't work with SD: they were in the same boat.

 

Jimmy Jack Funk was really two different beasts: teaming with Dory, and on his own.

 

On his own, he had several jobs to Poffo. With Dory... he jobbed to SD & Roma in a few matches in Australia.

 

Roma and Powers were on the same face side as SD and Poffo, pretty much the same level until their tag push.

 

 

And ANY of the above would be jobbing to the likes of Dino Bravo, Hercules,Corporal Kirshener, or Nikolia Volkoff.

Considering Haynes got wins over Herc and Volkoff, I'd rethink this one. I'd have to look through Koko again, but he was at or above the level of most of those guys. They treated Bravo a bit differently, but he was something of a special case.

 

Incidentally, I think the roster was STRONGER around 1988-1992 sort of period. The 86 roster was thin in comparison. I mean if Greg Valentine and Tito are at the BOTTOM of your card, that's a pretty strong roster.

Hard to say. People run their course. By late 1986 and early 1987, Sheik had run his course. We're talking about a World Champ who headlined against Hogan all over the place, and he was an undercarder.

 

That happens with national promotions. You run through talent. The 1986 roster was rather deep.

 

On that note, over in JCP, I think the roster was always thinner until the Turner buyout. So in 1986, you've got quite a stacked upper midcard and main event roster, but then there's pretty much NO ONE at JTTS or lower midcard level.

There always were JTTS. Sam Houston on some level was a JTTS in JCP. They just weren't running as many cards as the WWF, so it's no always easy to see. Italian Stallion was a JTTS.

 

They had bottom of the card folks, like almost all of Paul Jones' Army. Come on... Shaska Whatley? Rude & Raging elevated Jones out of the mess, then they gave him the Powers of Pain. What kept Jones Army out of being obvious JTTS was that Dusty did a pretty decent job of keeping the Jones vs Boogy Woogy feud really focused. It was an undercard feud that had its own storyline going on.

 

They had lots of prelim guys who would be JTTS if they were tossed into matches with stars:

 

 

Watching the horseman set, there's a lot of pure scrubs jobbers in there. Sam Houston was probably a midcarder strictly speaking.

Not at all. Prelim guy. Here's the first card out here when they re-pushed as a national promotion:

 

JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - August 28, 1986 (10,000)

Debut at the venue

Hector Guerrero defeated the Barbarian

Jimmy Valiant defeated Shaska Whatley

Wahoo McDaniel defeated NWA National Heavyweight Champion Tully Blanchard to win the title

Dick Murdoch defeated NWA TV Champion Arn Anderson

The Road Warriors defeated Ivan Koloff & Krusher Kruschev

Magnum TA fought NWA US Champion Nikita Koloff to a no contest

NWA Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson defeated Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey

NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Dusty Rhodes via disqualification

 

Wahoo was a midcarder. Ron Garvin was a midcarder as 1986 wore on and his feud Tully finished. Hell, JCP was so "loaded" that Arn was a midcarder in a sense until he got the tag belts with Tully. The top of the card typically was combinations of this:

 

* Flair World Title Match

* Dusty Match

* World Tag Title Match

* US Title Match

* Road Warriors Match

 

They could bleed together to a degree: Dusty in with Flair, or Flair & Horseman vs Dusty & TA. But the top of the cards were often pretty loaded, and you'd end up with Barry Windham (in 1987) or Arn and Tully as singles (in 1986) in the mid-card.

 

The WWF had more "talent", but it was spread around three crews. JCP did some split crews:

 

JCP @ Fayetteville, NC - September 6, 1986

Tim Horner fought Bill Dundee to a draw

Rick Rude defeated Allen West

NWA National Heavyewight Champion Wahoo McDaniel defeated Baron Von Raschke via disqualification

Bobby Jaggers & Dutch Mantell defeated Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey

Magnum TA defeated Jimmy Garvin

Dusty Rhodes defeated Tully Blanchard

 

JCP @ Baltimore, MD - Civic Center - September 6, 1986

Denny Brown defeated George South

Misty Blue defeated Linda Dallas

Jimmy Garvin defeated Sam Houston

The Warlord defeated Thunderfoot #1 & #2 in a handicap match

Baron Von Raschke defeated Todd Champion

Ole Anderson & NWA TV Champion Arn Anderson defeated NWA Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson

Tully Blanchard defeated NWA Mid Atlantic Heavyweight Champion Ron Garvin

NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Dusty Rhodes

 

JCP @ Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - September 6, 1986 (4,500)

Don Kernodle pinned Steve Regal

Buddy Landell defeated the Italian Stallion

Dutch Mantell pinned the Barbarian

Bobby Jaggers defeated Shaska Whatley via disqualification when Paul Jones tripped Jaggers

Ivan Koloff & Krusher Kruschev defeated Manny Fernandez & Hector Guerrero

Jimmy Valiant defeated Paul Jones in a lumberjack match

NWA National Heavyweight Champion Wahoo McDaniel & Dick Murdoch defeated Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey via disqualification when Condrey used Jim Cornette's tennis racquet as a weapon; after the bout, McDaniel & Murdoch assaulted Eaton & Condrey with the weapon

NWA US Champion Nikita Koloff defeated Magnum TA in a steel cage match

 

But that's kind of a double shot/split crew combo where Fayetteville was a matinee, and elements of that crew went to Philly while other elements when to Baltimore for the evening show.

 

 

They had A LOT more guys at the SD Jones sort of "top jobber" level: your Pistol Pez Whatleys, Rocky Kings, and Italian Stallions.

 

I'm prepared to be proved wrong by stats, but I don't think ANY of those guys ever got TV wins ever.

Whatley beat jobbers on TBS all the time in 1986. He was above the jobber level. Here's 1986 for WCW:

 

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/wcwsaturdaynight86.htm

 

I'd be surprised if you find any jobber appearances by him.

 

Stallion didn't get many TV wins. He did at house shows against other jobbers below him. He's a pretty direct analogy to SD.

 

Rocky was a jobber. Not as clear as the Mulkey level of getting his ass handed to him, but below Stallion in 1986.

 

John

[jdw]

You had to watch all of the JCP television to see the whole roster. You really just saw the top acts on World Championship Wrestling but if you really break down the roster in 1985-86 it was fairly huge.

 

Sam Houston actually got a pretty sizable push in JCP. He won the Mid-Atlantic Heavyweight Championship when they were trying to make that belt matter again.

It was a pretty minor push. I'm not saying that is was a non-existent push, but was just to give him something to do. I'd be hard pressed to say that he was as pushed in JCP as Koko was in the WWF.

 

I do agree that it wasn't a small roster. Just that the WWF's was massive.

 

Still, one can look at that Forum card I posted above to get an idea of the depth in the promotion when they pulled the crew together for a show:

 

JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - August 28, 1986 (10,000)

Debut at the venue

Hector Guerrero defeated the Barbarian

Jimmy Valiant defeated Shaska Whatley

Wahoo McDaniel defeated NWA National Heavyweight Champion Tully Blanchard to win the title

Dick Murdoch defeated NWA TV Champion Arn Anderson

The Road Warriors defeated Ivan Koloff & Krusher Kruschev

Magnum TA fought NWA US Champion Nikita Koloff to a no contest

NWA Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson defeated Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey

NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Dusty Rhodes via disqualification

 

TA vs Nikita and Warriors vs Russians were major feuds... and those were under Flair-Dusty and R'n'R vs MX. That's a modern PPV level card Then mix in Arn-Murdoch and Tully-Wahoo as the *midcard*? Valiant vs Whatley looks like a nothing prelim 25 years later, but Valiant vs Jones was a long running, heated blood feud that everyone watching JCP new the jist off.

 

In a way, this was similar to the WWF where you had storylines up and down the card. Even something as far down the ladder as Herc vs Haynes had a storyline, and if you went to a WWF card you knew what it was about. You'd get some matches just rolled out, but a lot of them had storylines that were pushed in the mix on Superstars, Challenge and Primetime.

 

John

[Mad Dog]

I think Koko got a title shot against Savage on Wrestling Challenge around the time Haynes did. It might have been non-title though.

 

Valiant/Whatley got some play on Worldwide. Whatley turned on Valiant in an interview and cut off some of his hair. It sucked and everything but it was a B show feud that spilled onto World Championship Wrestling here and there.

[Cox]

.

 

As the 90s moved along, there were fewer pure jobber matches, and former "stars" effectively became the JTTS. Kanyon and Spike Holly were the JTTS guys by the end of the 90s, but they actually had tv pushes as characters, and got wins and programs over guys at their level.

I don't know if that was intentional or not, but it definitely makes sense. Spike Dudley and Crash Holly were on the same basic level for most of their WWE stints.

[El-P]

They treated Bravo a bit differently, but he was something of a special case.

What do you mean by Bravo being a special case ? I'm intrigued.