Tim Evans Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Tracy Smothers 1. Dirty White Boy 2. Brian Lee 3. Jerry Lawler 4. Freebirds 5. Ian Rotten Sting 1. Flair 2. Vader 3. Luger 4. Hogan 5. Vampiro I have a soft spot for the Sing/Vampiro feud. Easily the best thing Vamp ever did besides getting beaten up legit by Pirata Morgan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 Martel: 1) Bockwinkel 2) Tsuruta 3) Dino Bravo 4) Santana 5) A many-way tie with guys including Hansen, Hayes, Garvin, and Tama(Tonga Kid, whose matches with Martel in the WWF are really compelling to me for some reason) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 What about Pat Patterson for Backlund? Only seen the MSG cage match but that was outstanding. The two main evented MSG four times in a row, with the cage match as the blowoff. And looking at Cawthon's page, it looks like Patterson built up a brass knuckles storyline that pays off in the cage match, which I hadn't known about before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 Martel: 1) Bockwinkel 2) Tsuruta 3) Dino Bravo 4) Santana 5) A many-way tie with guys including Hansen, Hayes, Garvin, and Tama(Tonga Kid, whose matches with Martel in the WWF are really compelling to me for some reason) What are the Martel/Bravo and Martel/Hayes matches worth watching? I've seen the Martel/Hayes from St. Paul with Crusher at ringside but I didn't like it very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 Martel: 1) Bockwinkel 2) Tsuruta 3) Dino Bravo 4) Santana 5) A many-way tie with guys including Hansen, Hayes, Garvin, and Tama(Tonga Kid, whose matches with Martel in the WWF are really compelling to me for some reason) What are the Martel/Bravo and Martel/Hayes matches worth watching? I've seen the Martel/Hayes from St. Paul with Crusher at ringside but I didn't like it very much. That Crusher at ringside match was supposed to segue into Crusher/Martel vs. Hayes/Gordy the next month in St. Paul, but the idea went over very poorly. It ended up being Hennig/Martel vs. Hayes/Gordy, though I'm not sure if the switch with Crusher was done because nobody wanted to see it or if Crusher and Verne had another one of their blow-up-walk-out sessions. anyhow... The one before that in St. Paul is the first one I think of for Hayes. The whole dynamic there is that the average fan believes that Martel should handle Hayes with ease, yet he doesn't...Hayes gives him plenty of trouble even before pulling out knucks to score the win. It's compelling in the sense that you are made to spend the whole match muttering "C'mon! how can he be losing to this bum!" to yourself. There are similar matches with Hayes in Chicago and IIRC Vegas in that vein, along with a Buddy Roberts-Martel match with the same dynamic that is actually pretty good (Roberts won a coin flip with Hayes to get the match as a sub for either Gordy or King Tonga, I can't remember which one no-showed). It was a similar dynamic to Martel vs. Garvin, although the matches against Jim were a lot better to watch from strictly a back-and-forth match standpoint, IMO. The Bravo matches in 83 were extremely big in Quebec. Verne in Martel's corner, Brito (I think) in Bravo's corner...felt really important. Both were faces at the time. It had the vibe of, say, Hogan-Warrior at Wrestlemania, in the sense that both had their backers, and those that liked them equally were torn on who to root for. There are parts of at least one and I think two matches available. I believe those matches were big enough that Verne at least partially based his decision to give Martel a run with the belt on the emotion that they generated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 For Sting, I'd argue: 1. Vader 2. Flair 3. Cactus Jack 4. Regal 5. Great Muta He may not have had ongoing issues with the last 3 but if I had to do a "best ever Sting matches" list, outside of Flair and Vader, I don't see what else would come above those. If you think about it, for such a top babyface, Sting was pretty much directionless for large stretches of his career, wasn't he. I mean ANGLES wise, this would be a lot easier to do for Hogan than it is for Sting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 What about Pat Patterson for Backlund? Only seen the MSG cage match but that was outstanding. The two main evented MSG four times in a row, with the cage match as the blowoff. And looking at Cawthon's page, it looks like Patterson built up a brass knuckles storyline that pays off in the cage match, which I hadn't known about before. I'm not a fan of the Backlund-Patterson cage match. I've seen the Philly matches (10/20/79 and 11/17/79) and they're really disappointing: "Fifth of Gin Selling" was coined by Frank to describe Pat laying around doing nothing in them. On the other hand, the second July MSG match (07/30/79) is available, and I think it's pretty good. It's odd because it's their longest available match going nearly 30. But they put together what I thought was a real good match the last time I watched it. With the opponents I selected, I tried to go with some folks who had multiple good matches available and also few dogs. The 1979 Bob-Valentine blow off is disappointing/mediocre, but there are so many good matches between them along with at least one true classic (the 1979 draw) that it's makes Greg an obvious opponent. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 That Crusher at ringside match was supposed to segue into Crusher/Martel vs. Hayes/Gordy the next month in St. Paul, but the idea went over very poorly. It ended up being Hennig/Martel vs. Hayes/Gordy, though I'm not sure if the switch with Crusher was done because nobody wanted to see it or if Crusher and Verne had another one of their blow-up-walk-out sessions. anyhow... The one before that in St. Paul is the first one I think of for Hayes. The whole dynamic there is that the average fan believes that Martel should handle Hayes with ease, yet he doesn't...Hayes gives him plenty of trouble even before pulling out knucks to score the win. It's compelling in the sense that you are made to spend the whole match muttering "C'mon! how can he be losing to this bum!" to yourself. There are similar matches with Hayes in Chicago and IIRC Vegas in that vein, along with a Buddy Roberts-Martel match with the same dynamic that is actually pretty good (Roberts won a coin flip with Hayes to get the match as a sub for either Gordy or King Tonga, I can't remember which one no-showed). It was a similar dynamic to Martel vs. Garvin, although the matches against Jim were a lot better to watch from strictly a back-and-forth match standpoint, IMO. I think the Hayes TV match wasn't from Vegas but Atlantic City, IIRC. That one was pretty good, but it was kind of a set up match. Will have to track down the other St. Paul match, and of course the Bravo matches because those sound good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 Here's an interesting one: Scott Steiner I think most people would think his best stuff came from tag team work. So when you can only name five people, do you use two slots to name both members of a tag team? Do you go to some of his WCW solo stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 Here's an interesting one: Scott Steiner I think most people would think his best stuff came from tag team work. So when you can only name five people, do you use two slots to name both members of a tag team? Do you go to some of his WCW solo stuff? I'll give it a shot... 1. DDP - their US title matches were actually pretty good, some nice mid-card stuff. 2. Brother Ray - the brief 2007 feud with Team 3D resulted in some of The Steiners' best matches in years. 2. Brother D'Von - " " 4. Goldberg - had some pretty competitive matches and if I recall correctly - Steiner actually beat Goldberg by TKO. 5. Booker T - their program in 2000 was one of the only things worth watching in WCW at the time. Randy Savage 1. Ricky Steamboat - could it be anyone else? 2. Ric Flair - they always had really solid matches. 3. Jake Roberts - excellent match psychology and very competitive. 4. Hulk Hogan - for the sheer amount of audience investment in their matches 5. Ultimate Warrior - the storytelling in their Wrestlemania match was among the best the WWF had seen at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 1. Ricky Steamboat - could it be anyone else? What about Tito? Steamer and Savage have the 'Mania III match, but were any of their other matches nearly as well received? (Honest question, BTW) The Tito/Savage IC Title feud in '86 produced quite a few well-received matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 I think Ted DiBiase deserves a mention for Savage. Their 1988 series around the horn seems REALLY underrated to me (all the matches on the Macho Madness tape from 88 are at least ***1/2 to **** imo). And there are some nice continuity pieces too: their involvement in any Royal Rumble together, including the implied bribery (in was it 90?). I think Ted runs Warrior close for that 5th spot. With Warrior it's just two memorable matches really (WM7 and SS92), with Ted is was a long-running thing. If we did Top 5 for DiBiase, Savage would definitely be one of them. Something like: 1. Duggan 2. Hogan 3. Savage 4. Jake 5. Virgil (?) JYD (?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 1. Ricky Steamboat - could it be anyone else? What about Tito? Steamer and Savage have the 'Mania III match, but were any of their other matches nearly as well received? (Honest question, BTW) The Tito/Savage IC Title feud in '86 produced quite a few well-received matches. Yep. Actually, for Savage I'd put : 1 - Steamboat 2 - Santana 3 - Flair 4 - DDP 5 - Warrior DDP rejuvenated Savage like no one else could have in 1997. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 1. Ricky Steamboat - could it be anyone else? What about Tito? Steamer and Savage have the 'Mania III match, but were any of their other matches nearly as well received? (Honest question, BTW) The Tito/Savage IC Title feud in '86 produced quite a few well-received matches. Savage-Steamboat feud arc would be best represented by this: A. 11/01/86 Boston: Pre-Injury B. 11/22/86 Superstars: Injury Angle Match (taped 10/28/86) C. 02/15/87 Toronto: Revenge Match D. 02/23/87 MSG: Elimination Match F. 03/29/87 WrestleMania: Title Change Savage-Tito feud arc is probably best represented by: A. 01/11/86 Boston B. 02/08/86 Boston Title change C. 03/16/86 MSG D. 04/22/86 MSG No DQ E. 05/19/86 MSG with Bruno as Guest ref F. 06/14/86 MSG Savage & Adonis vs Santana & Sammartino G. 07/12/86 MSG Savage & Adonis vs Santana & Sammartino (Cage) Savage-Steamer is a tighter arc with the best highpoints: monster angle (which comes after they've worked a good Nitro-style match on Superstars), terrific revenge match in Toronto, legendary climax at Mania. Savage-Tito is more sprawling because the title change is in Boston which the cleaner storyline is in MSG. Since the first Boston sets up the title change, you need it. The MSG No DQ is the one truly great stand out, while the others are all generally good. The cage is a very good payoff and a helluva lot of fun, but it's not really up at the Mania level. They're both great. There are other Savage-Steamer matches, going all the way back to 1985 and around the horn during the feud. They don't really add to the feud arc, but there are other solid matches. I point to those five as simply the clearest and cleanest in representing the feud. There are also other Tito-Savage matches. Same thing: those seven do the best job of representing the feud, and even it is a little stretched. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 jdw - what about Ted in 88? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 I really love Tito as a Savage opponent (the April '88 No Holds Barred Match from MSG is really excellent), but Steamboat feels like a clear #1 Savage opponent. I used to be pretty down on their WWF feud, but I went through it all again a couple years ago and came out of it with a totally different opinion. The Wrestlemania match felt like a contender for top 5 in company history, the Toronto lead-in was as good as I remembered (that was the one match from the feud I thought was "great"), and the surrounding matches were all generally at least "good." I don't think Savage/Tito ever had a match as good as Savage/Steamer from Wrestlemania, but I do think the 4/88 Savage/Tito match from MSG is right there with anything else Savage and Steamboat did together. I'm with the people putting Page in a top 5 for Savage opponents, too. I watched the three PPV matches from '97 months ago and thought they were all a total blast. My stock in Page has went up huge over the last year, and the Savage series is a big reason why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 In some ways Page is Savage's soulmate when it comes to putting together a match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 I actually forgot about both guys' need to meticulously plan everything beforehand. The cool thing about that is the fact those matches came off as being as loony and uncooperative as anything I recall seeing from them anywhere else (at least I think they did...my memory might be off). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 The cool thing about that is the fact those matches came off as being as loony and uncooperative as anything I recall seeing from them anywhere else (at least I think they did...my memory might be off). Yep. They didn't look scripted, they looked messy and chaotic, which was the purpose. The best stuff on top in WCW during the nWo years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 jdw - what about Ted in 88? I've only written up the MSG cage match, and I really didn't like it at all. I talked about it in Match #18 of the WWF Thread on tOA. I've seen several others, and I've always been left wanting something more from them. They're a bunch on the list of things to watch, and perhaps they'll hit the spot. Pretty sure I have the first 20 disks of Corey's Savage set which covers 80s Savage in the WWF. Hogan-Savage-o-rama is the core of what I'll watch whenever I pick it back up (soon given College Football is over until the bowls). John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 I don't think Savage/Tito ever had a match as good as Savage/Steamer from Wrestlemania, but I do think the 4/88 Savage/Tito match from MSG is right there with anything else Savage and Steamboat did together. I tend to think that Savage-Steamer from Mania, Savage-Steamer in Toronto and the 4/86 Savage-Tito from MSG are pretty much heads and shoulders above everything else in the two feuds. One kind of wishes that the two house show matches had bigger settings, such as Mania II (for Savage-Tito) and SNME (for Savage-Steamer in Toronto) which would have them both viewed as legendary epic classics matches. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 Yeah, I agree with that. There's a handful of Tito/Savage matches on Corey's Savage set that all had a lot of the same positives as the 4/86 MSG match, but none of them hit the same high notes. The regular singles matches before the feud really kicked into gear obviously weren't trying to hit those same notes anyway, but there's at least one more no holds barred match (pretty sure it's from Boston...possibly one from Philly as well) that had plenty of "good stuff" in it. Just lacked what made the MSG match really top tier (although fuck if I remember what that was now...been about 3 years since I watched them). I remember the non-stip matches all being decent to good as well. They all sort of blend together in my head now, though. EDIT: Wasn't there another Savage/Tito match from Toronto that popped up on dailymotion not long ago that is supposedly really good? Or is that another Savage/Steamboat match? Which in fairness would also be really interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted December 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 How would Lawler rate as a Savage opponent with people here? I won't to go through and get caught up on all the names in this thread this week, but for now I'll pick Rick Martel 1. Nick Bockwinkel 2. Buddy Rose 3. Jumbo Tsuruta 4. Jimmy Garvin 5. Brad Rheingans Bock and Buddy is a toss up and honestly when I rewatch the Buddy matches soon I could see flip flopping there. The Bock matches are fresher in my mind and I like them a lot so I went with it. I like all the Jumbo v. Martel matches, whereas some people don't and think that had at least one really great match. Garvin was a really good opponent for Martel. They had several good matches and their best match together might be my favorite Garvin match ever. Rheingans only has one match v. Martel on tape but it is FUCKING AWESOME Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 I realize it's not where your head's been at, but what do you think about Santana/Martel. They were married for over a year, no? Okay it just FELT that long. He did wrestle Ron Garvin all throughout the summer of 90 and that sounds fairly interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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