Al Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Looking at the Wrestling Observer Match of the Year Awards, I was a bit surprised to see Ramon/Michaels won match of the year in 1994. Misawa/Kawada has such a mythical quality that I just assumed it had won that year. Which leads me to ask, at what point was Misawa/Kawada praised as the greatest match of all time? Almost immediately, or did it take time to filter through the smart wrestling community? Is it still considered the greatest match of all time? A related question I had pondered earlier. If you were to ask a smart wrestling fan in say, 1950, what would their response be? 1960? 1970? I think it'd be interesting to track the evolution of the GOAT question. Was Rogers/O'Connor seen as the greatest match as it was seen by a mass audience? Did fans regard matches such as Thesz/Rikidozan or Thesz/Leone that they might not have seen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 It's never been considered the greatest match of all time. It's always been considered the greatest match of all time. Which one it is depends on the question being asked, and to whom. I mean... think about it. Look at the awards polls and see where other matches people have cited as the GOAT have placed: 04/89 Flair vs Steamboat 06/89 Jumbo vs Tenryu 06/90 Jumbo vs Misawa 12/92 Yamada & Toyota vs Kansai & Ozaki 04/93 Hokuto vs Kandori 06/94 Misawa vs Kawada 06/95 Misawa & Kobashi vs Kawada & Taue 12/96 Misawa & Akiyama vs Kawada & Taue xx/xx Any Lucha Match Ever Pick your own personal GOAT Match and look up where it finished. Conduct a GOAT poll on this board or say DVDVR or what ever similar, non-Consenus board you want to, and you're likely going to find that the GOAT Winner there and/or most of the Top GOAT Placers didn't win the WON MOTY. In turn, you'll likely be able to find some people who not long after the matches took place saying something to the equiv: "This is the best match I've ever seen." "This just might be the best match I've ever seen." "If _____ is the best match ever, this is ever bit as good / doesn't take seat to it." Etc. So... It's never been considered the greatest match of all time. It's always been considered the greatest match of all time. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 I'll be honest. I've always likened John's posts more to War and Peace than A Tale of Two Cities Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 A related question I had pondered earlier. If you were to ask a smart wrestling fan in say, 1950, what would their response be? 1960? 1970? I think it'd be interesting to track the evolution of the GOAT question. Was Rogers/O'Connor seen as the greatest match as it was seen by a mass audience? Did fans regard matches such as Thesz/Rikidozan or Thesz/Leone that they might not have seen? Those three examples are more on the lines of Hogan-Andre rather than Misawa-Kawada. I seem to recall someone who was in Chicago in the era and saw several Rogers-O'Connor matches mentioning that the title change (which is the one circulating) wasn't their best. I tend to think it's a pretty disappointing match. It's literally impossible for us to know what would win the MOTY/GOAT in those eras from a WON Era viewpoint, with WON Era level of availability of matches. We truly don't know who the workers are that would have tickled the WON Voters like we've seen in the WON Era. If we look over the list of WON MOTY winners, or more so the top 3-5 of serious candidates, we'll find in terms of workers a small percentage of "WTF?!?" level workers. But that I mean that you don't typically see Lex and Sting getting up there unless they're in there with opponents that are generally considered really good workers by WON Voters. And if there is say a Sting vs Jake Roberts match that ended up finishing #2 in a WON MOTY award, there would be something instantly memorable about it that pushed it up. Instead, you're likely to see those guys up there with someone the voters dig a lot. Flair. Or Sting & Lex vs the Steiners coming in the same year the Steiners won it with Hase & Sasaki... in other words, the Steiners were at their peak of WON Voters loving their style of work. Projecting back to the 50s and 60s... really hard. It's hard even to do it for the 70s because it's difficult to project what US Matches would be widely available if wrestling were taped like it was in the second half of the 80s into the early 90s (wider TV, Big TV Shows, PPV, commerical tapes, etc). Who really knows what the 70s equiv of Freebirds vs Von Erichs six man tag that did well in the 1983 and 1984 polling would be. We can project a little for Japan because there's more of that available for us to look at, and we have a general idea of what did air: basically the same type of stuff that did in the 80s and 90s. What we don't have is everything that aired on TV. So while we pop for Jumbo-Funk in 1976, we're not really certain that there aren't other really great All Japan matches buried in the vault that a WON-style Voter would have "seen" in 1976 if there was "tape trading" in 1976 like there was in 1989 where the great/pimped matches made their way over here. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 I'll be honest. I've always likened John's posts more to War and Peace than A Tale of Two Cities "Historians are like deaf people who go on answering questions that no one has asked them." -Tolstoy John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 In turn, you'll likely be able to find some people who not long after the matches took place saying something to the equiv: "This is the best match I've ever seen." "This just might be the best match I've ever seen." I've used varations of these about 3-4 times in my Too Short comments watching the All Japan set. My feeling is that criticism in general is rather good at seperating stuff into about 4 categories The cream Very good "somewhere in between" Shit Most critical systems can do that. Most critical consensuses can get you there. Most individuals can do that with ease. What they are less apt at doing is distinguishing between two creams or two shits. What's better Citizen Kane or the largley forgotten 1968-film Candy? Obviously Kane. What's better Citizen Kane or The Godfather Part 2? Well how do you even begin to answer that? I veer between thinking you can work out a definitive system and thinking that it's a fool's game and that the best you can do is come up with lists of cream of equal greatness that do different things. I lean towards the latter increasingly these days. I also think that among fans IN GENERAL that Steamboat - Flair is automatic default GOAT pick. There are layers of fandom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 I think most fans in general haven't seen Flair-Steamboat. Hardcore fans? Sure, they've seen it. Fans back in 1989? To a degree... a large number of fans... but the WWF was the bigger promotion and there wasn't always 100% cross over. Fans buying DVD? The Flair dvd and others that it's been on have sold well... but not in the numbers that watch the TV shows. The 2/89, 4/89 and 5/89 Flair-Steamer matches were nearly 23 years ago. A quarter century. How many generation of WWF/WWE fans have come and gone sense then? Nearly the entire Monday Night Wars generation has come and gone. :/ I don't think there would be a consensus among most "wrestling fans" that Flair-Steamer is the best match of all time if, for example, you blind polled folks at house shows for the next six months (i.e. getting a good sample). That's not the perfect sample because more people watch at home, but it might be the *cleanest* sample you can get because it's less likely to get influenced by outside sources as you'd get in online voting. 23 years ago... it's really ancient history. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 While I agree that the majority probably haven't seen it, it's got a rep and mystique and is constantly pimped as being the GOAT on WWE tv and elsewhere. A lot of people haven't seen The Godfather or Kane either but they'll be aware of them talked about as GOAT films. I'd imagine your average fan will at least be vaguely aware of the holy trilogy, less so of Misawa vs. Kawada, or indeed any match from Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 A lot of people haven't seen The Godfather or Kane either but they'll be aware of them talked about as GOAT.. For just a moment there, I thought you were saying this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 A lot of people haven't seen The Godfather or Kane either but they'll be aware of them talked about as GOAT films. I'm not so sure, especially with Kane. I don't recall anyone ever discussing it while I was in K-12: teachers or student. It was discussed in college, but only in the circle that took Film As Art classes... or whatever the hell they were called back in the mid-80s when get got good & stoned and go watch revivals at the Rialto and Nuart Theatres. I can't say that it's come up in many conversations with other people post-college. Yohe is a massive film fan, so he knows about Kane. But... It's not really a widely discussed or cited movie in the US anymore for the "masses". There's a generation of guys who don't know about Jordan's greatness because it was 1982-98, and that's already 14 years ago. He is the guy in the Haines ads, and folks on Sports Center talk about him a lot... but 14 years ago is old history. Think about the coverage this week of Ali's bithday. He was champ for the last time back in 1979. I was 13 at the time. He's an iconic person in my life. But lordy... it's staggering that it was 30+ years ago, and that lots of people don't know who he is. Kane was 70 years ago. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Besides, the Greatest match of all Time is Magnum TA vs. Tully Blanchard "I Quit Cage Match" from Starrcade 1985. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 I think John severely underestimates the general awareness of various iconic figures. I absolutely knew what Citizen Kane was when I was growing up. Hell, there was an episode of Tiny Toons dedicated to spoofing it. And a generation not knowing about Jordan...seriously? Jordan? Seriously? Christ, Babe Ruth had been dead for 33 years when I was born and I knew about him. With all that said, if you polled current fans as to the greatest match of all time, some Shawn Michaels match would probably come out on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Kane is involved in the GMOAT ? Wait.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 I think John severely underestimates the general awareness of various iconic figures. I absolutely knew what Citizen Kane was when I was growing up. Hell, there was an episode of Tiny Toons dedicated to spoofing it. I knew about it when I was growing up. How many of your friends talked about it? You know the chuckle heads you grew up with... seriously, how many of them knew much about the movie? And a generation not knowing about Jordan...seriously? Jordan? Seriously? I believe there's some stuff that's popped up in the past few years of folks who don't know Jordan much beyond "the shoes" and "he's suppose to be great, right"? Hoops fans? Sure. But how much of the population watches hoops? Christ, Babe Ruth had been dead for 33 years when I was born and I knew about him. Slightly different era. You were born in 1981. Do think the kids born in 1991 or 2001 know/knew all the stuff that you did when you were a kid? I'm sure they could quickly find it on their iPhone via the wiki if you asked. But knew about him in the way that you did? Baseball isn't even that popular in the culture that it was in say 1991. Good... 1991, Twins vs Braves... 20+ years ago... I'm getting too damn old. With all that said, if you polled current fans as to the greatest match of all time, some Shawn Michaels match would probably come out on top. Agreed. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted January 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 What I mean is if you polled people in 1961, knowing only what they knew then, what would they have said? Do agree with the problem of ancient history. I think if you polled the average fan today, they would tell you Michaels/Angle or Michaels/Undertaker from Wrestlemania. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 What I mean is if you polled people in 1961, knowing only what they knew then, what would they have said? There was very little national coverage. The Mags were just starting up, and were limited in how many people read them. People across the nation didn't see Rogers-O'Connor, just heard about it... if they heard about it. So for the most part, people would vote for their local great match that was either recent or something referred to by the local pbp man. Even something like Thesz-Leone was past history in Los Angeles when the promotion was focused on Carpentier then Blasie then Destroyer. New York might be a little different because Bruno's dynasty went on so long. But if people were randomly asked at the Garden for the GOAT, it's hard to think of the Misawa-Kawada jumping out at them. Perhaps Bruno-Buddy was talked about because it was the start of Bruno's run. There also was the famous riot match. But I'm wondering how much Rocco had already been written out of New York wrestling history by 1971 because the focus was always on the present. Does that make any sense? Once Backlund was done in the WWF, his was largely written out. Less for "spite" (though who knows with Vince), but more in the tradition of the promotions focus in the present. Long time fans in Florida might was on about Brisco-Funk. Solie might talk about it. But in 1988 when the WWF was essentially taking over Florida, the kids and fans they were drawing probably didn't know a whole heck of a lot about Brisco-Funk. Vince, Jesse, Gorilla, Bobby, Gene... they weren't saying anything about it. In the US, "wrestling history" tended to be about the Moment. The past was only useful to build up the now. What happened elsewhere only matter if it could help sell here. Drove me nuts when I was looking stuff up. History degree, massive fan of sports history... and digging into the old results in the papers, their references to history were sporadic and usually wrong. It was a beast to try to track down stuff back then. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Al's question was about smart fans specifically, not just fans. I would guess that hardcore fandom didn't exist until VCRs in households became a common thing. Not sure what the 70s fan club types would have thought was the best match ever. Maybe Brisco/Dory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 I think John severely underestimates the general awareness of various iconic figures. I absolutely knew what Citizen Kane was when I was growing up. Hell, there was an episode of Tiny Toons dedicated to spoofing it. And a generation not knowing about Jordan...seriously? Jordan? Seriously? Christ, Babe Ruth had been dead for 33 years when I was born and I knew about him. With all that said, if you polled current fans as to the greatest match of all time, some Shawn Michaels match would probably come out on top. You know, when I finally saw Citizen Kane as an adult, I realized I had already seen almost the entire movie through parodies done on the Simpsons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 What's better Citizen Kane or The Godfather Part 2? Well how do you even begin to answer that? That's easy. They're both overrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Citizen Kane is actually more relevant to this thread than some may realize. In the first decade or so after its initial release, it wasn't considered one of the greatest movies of all time. George Hearst's vendetta against the film hurt its theatrical run, with many newspapers refusing to advertise it and many theaters either not showing it for long or not showing it at all. Wasn't until the film was rereleased in the 1950s that many critics got to see it for the first time, and thus a legend was born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 I would like to interject that talking about what kids today know is a fairly moot point. I worked the past 4 years at a public high school, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt.....these kids are fucking stupid. Self entitled, over privileged, egocentric....and really stupid. That doesn't really have much to do with anything, but it makes me feel better to say it....sorry. However, to make a better point, a lady I worked with whose son went to the school was a wrestling fan. He thinks Randy Orton is the best wrestler alive, he thought that the Chikara I loaned him was "gay" and he thought most of the matches on the Ric Flair DVD that WWE put out were "long and boring" Ugggh.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Al's question was about smart fans specifically, not just fans. I would guess that hardcore fandom didn't exist until VCRs in households became a common thing. Not sure what the 70s fan club types would have thought was the best match ever. Maybe Brisco/Dory? Assuming footage were as readily available then as it is today, Jumbo probably would have done very well. In addition to being a great wrestler, he performed moves like headscissors takedowns and missile dropkicks that were incredibly high-end by the standards of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 What's better Citizen Kane or The Godfather Part 2? Well how do you even begin to answer that? That's easy. They're both overrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 However, to make a better point, a lady I worked with whose son went to the school was a wrestling fan. He thinks Randy Orton is the best wrestler alive, he thought that the Chikara I loaned him was "gay" and he thought most of the matches on the Ric Flair DVD that WWE put out were "long and boring Not liking Chikara doesn't surprise me, it's a niche product that doesn't have universal appeal. Thinking Randy "Mr Chinlock" Orton is the best ever but having no patience for Ric Flair matches is puzzling however. What's better Citizen Kane or The Godfather Part 2? Well how do you even begin to answer that? That's easy. They're both overrated. That reminds me, i've never seen either, really should stop being lazy and get around to it one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted January 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Citizen Kane is a fine film IMO. Probably slow by today's standards but it's solid and has a LOT of value in repeat viewing. The Godfather movies are good, but I don't personally enjoy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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