Comments that don't warrant a thread - Part 3

[Dylan Waco]

I like Stixx and Haskins

[JerryvonKramer]

Southside Wrestling, Raw Deal 2

Thursday, 7th March 2013

 

Well, I have to say that I was really surprised by just how good this show was. There was a packed house there, about 1,000 people I'd say. Very notably a family audience, lots of kids. LOTS of kids. But I think that helped things as I'll explain.

 

The product is very traditional I'd say. Strong face/heel divide. Every guy on the roster made a big effort with the crowd and never forgot they were there. The heels weren't afraid to heel it up, almost all the faces were super over with the kids. I went to that TNA show at Wembley last year and this just blew that away for the simple reason that it was always obvious who was face, who was heel and the crowd always did their bit to cheer and boo.

 

Also, this promotion has some not bad at all production values: there was a big screen projection over the entrance and every wrestler had theme music and a titantron video. That may be standard in the indies now, I don't know, but I was impressed by it. Seemed like they did more to get over each and every guy than they did at that TNA Wembley show, that's for sure.

 

I'll go match-by-match:

 

NATHAN CRUZ v MARK HASKINS

 

The big guest here was Ted DiBiase who was wearing a WWE 2012 tracksuit and literally couldn't look like he cared less about being there. The mic was a bit wonky going off and on, but Ted's kayfabe reason for being there because he'd made "an investment" in Mark Haskins (face). So he was there as a face and wasn't really playing up his gimmick much. We didn't even get a signature laugh from him.

 

His promo was interrupted by "The Shows Stealer" Nathan Cruz. A well-built guy in shades and a feather boa. He wasn't bad on the mic, kept calling DiBiase an old man and wanted to show him that his investment was a waste of money. He was over with the crowd who were booing the shit of him.

 

Eventually Haskins came out and the match started with Ted as Haskins's manager. He didn't really do anything at ringside or ever get involved. But the match itself was decent. It was well worked, with you simple shine - stretch - finish structure. They took it to the matt a few times. It was nowhere near the spotty indy style I was expecting -- if anything I'd say they worked it like an old 80s match. Both guys were technically sound and both worked the crowd well at different times. Solid opener. Only slightly surprising thing is that Cruz went over clean.

 

Post-match there was some stuff involved DiBiase, but he was so not into it that it sort of fell flat. Essentially Cruz got a mic and taunted him, then Ted got on the mic outside the ring and taunted him back while Haskins snuck up behind and kicked him to retain some of his heat. Thought that was a little awkward.

 

MARTIN KIRBY v LOCO IMBECIL

 

So Loco Imbecil was announced from Mexico City and came out in Lucha gear but with a tux pattern on his all-in-one. He was carrying a pink Hello Kitty bag full of jaffa cakes which he was throwing out to the crowd. There was a big "JAFFA CAKES!" chant which made a laugh a good bit (if you don't know what Jaffa Cakes are my US friends, look them up). As Imbecil got into the ring he tripped over the bottom rope and all the kids laughed. For a comedy gimmick, this guy was pretty funny and really OVER.

 

Martin Kirby came out in a dragon mask and proceeded to kick the shit out of Loco. It was basically a squash match. And the second match in a row a heel went over clean. Good enough for what it was.

 

Post-match Kirby complained about the standard of opposition and called Imbecil "El Retardo".

 

THE GOLDEN TONGUE

 

This was a "Piper's Pit" style segment featuring manager "Hollywood" Harvey Dale, who seemed to be managing about half the roster. He was alright but not exactly Bobby Heenan or anything. His guest was "The Future" MK McKinnan -- a peroxide blonde guy -- who was going to be taking on Noam Dar in the main event. Dale did the whole Piper-not-letting-him-speak thing. Noam Dar hit the ring before long, and he has a thick Scottish accent. Crowd was massively getting on his back about it and he soaked up the hate. He's kind of a bit effeminate/camp but with a sort of indie brit-pop thing going on too. I thought he handled that segment pretty well -- he seemed to be getting a lot more genuine heel heat than McKinnen was getting face heat though.

 

EL LIGERO v STIXX

 

Stixx is a big guy with a chain. El Ligero another luchadore, but in a Toro-style mask. He was REALLY over with the kids. I heard one guy behind me shout "WE LOVE YOU". It was a little bit weird for me seeing this level of markdom after the TNA experience. Ligero did a good deal of hand slapping with the kids.

 

Stixx did a good job of sneering at the crowd. There was one guy in the front row who kept on trying to start a "Let's go Stixx" chant, and Stixx went over and told him to shut up. Ligero was probably the most "spotty" worker on the card, a lot of hurricanranas and flippy stuff. Stixx worked standard power wrestler type spots -- hit a sweet scoop powerslam at one point. This was a decent match. But for the THIRD match in a row the heel went over clean. Stixx pinned El Ligero. I was a bit shocked at that, I mean El Ligero was so over with that crowd and he was jobbed out clean.

 

THE PREDATORS v MAX ANGELUS & TOMMY DREAMER

 

So The Predators are Joseph Conners and Paul Malen and they are the current SWE tag champs. Two rough-looking dudes with buzz cuts and tattoos. Like the rest of the roster, they have decent physiques and were over with the crowd. Max Angelus is the current SWE Champ and he got some big "Max Max" chants and did the best he could in hyping up the crowd. Tommy Dreamer was pretty over with them too, got a big pop coming out and there were a fair few old ECW fans in. The Predators kept goading the crowd by saying they wouldn't be able to keep the chanting up and whenever they stopped one of them would shout "There is Silence!" in quite a menacing way. Thought that was quite cool.

 

This was booked as an "extreme rules" match but started out like a classic southern tag match. After a brief shine, The Predators took over and Angelus played FIP. Thought The Predators had some great looking offense. Rough and rugged style but still technically sound, kinda reminded me of a more technically-minded Sheepherders. They cut the ring in half and Dreamer and the ref did all the usual spots.

 

I should take a sentence or two for the ref here. Not sure of his name but he looked like a ginger Art Garfunkel with tufty hair, but he did a REALLY good job all night. During this match he sent Harvey Dale back to the locker room. I wasn't sure why since this was "extreme rules" but there we go.

 

Then once Dream got in, all hell broke loose. The match tumbled outside and we got a wild brawl. Dreamer got a bottle of coke from someone in the front and spat it in both Predators' faces. Then smashed it over one of their heads and coke went everywhere. I was sitting in the front row and got fucking soaked in coke. I'm probably going to have to dry-clean my coat which I'm a bit pissed off about. Thanks Tommy. He then went and got an actual bin full of actual rubbish and smashed it over a Predators' head. Rubbish went everywhere. There was a guy sitting a couple of seat down from me with a crutch and he grabbed that and used it. They then took it up the steps into the crowd at large. All of this was going over very well. There were kids squealing with delight at some of this standard ECW stuff.

 

I was mainly trying to get coke off my jacket. Angelus seemed to disappear during most of this. He was down injured for ages. Eventually he went and got a trolley full of weapons. Kendo sticks, a table, chairs.

 

He set up a table in the corner but the Predators regained advantage and Angelus took the table turnbuckle spot. It was a pretty flimsy table splintered and shattered everywhere. Whole place was a mess, looked like carnage. Faces ended up getting the win, which wasn't a surprise. Good, wild match that gave the crowd what they wanted from Dreamer while putting over Angelus strong and showcasing The Predators who I was pretty impressed with.

 

Post-match Dreamer did something absolutely disgusting: there was this half-eaten chicken leg that had come out of the bin and he put it in his mouth like a victory cigar. GROSS.

 

----

 

Then it was the interval when I bee-lined it straight to DiBiase's table, I was the first in line. My heart was going as he walked to his chair. I bought a picture that he signed for £10. Was shaking like a leaf when I had this conversation. After the convo I almost forgot to give him the money. It's not every day you meet one of your all-time heroes.

 

---

 

MAD MAN MANSON v T-BONE

 

Mad Man Manson came out in a straight-jacket wearing no boots and HOLY SHIT was this guy over with this crowd and especially the kids. They went mental for him. Then something amazing happened: about 30 or 40 of them ran down to the front and surrounded him. T-Bone like all the other heels on the show was not afraid to show his ass, which he did quite literally at one point when Manson pulled his trunks down Rick-Rude-style.

 

T-Bone was pretty impressive in this match. Controlled the action well. Some nice offense mixed in with matwork. Manson did a lot of crowd-pleasing pantomime-type spots including a spot where he'd get thrown over to the turnbuckle but then swing round to sit on the second rope and speak to the fans. Kids found it absolutely hilarious and it was difficult not to laugh. He did it twice and then went for it a third time but T-Bone got smart to it.

 

T-Bone got the win, which meant FOURTH straight clean heel win in singles matches. He looked good though.

 

ROBBIE X v DARRELL ALLEN

 

This was a cruiser weight match. Darrell Allen is one half of a tag-team called The Bhangra Knights, he was the heel here and did a line in looking at the ladies in the crowd. They started off with a lot of chain wrestling and neat counters. Soon they transitioned into more high spots. And they -- especially Robbie X -- did hit some super cool-looking shit including an amazing flying diamond-cutter-like bulldog of the top rope (the actual top rope not the turnbuckle) for the win. Good juniors match. Great German suplex from Allen at one point. Some very good execution in this match. Robbie X with a rare win for the faces.

 

NOAM DAR v MK McKINNAN

 

This was the main event then. Dar came out to "What's the Story Morning Glory" by Oasis and the heel fan in the front row tried to start a chant singing it. Dar was happy enough to play up to it by going to the other corners of the crowd for more, then he was even happier to proclaim that it was only 4 people. McKinnan just didn't seem that over to me. He was also noticeably pudgier than almost ever other member of the roster -- kinda had the same body as Tommy Rich circa 1989 only a lot smaller.

 

Dar has a lot of charisma. His body and some of his movement kinda remind me a LOT of Lanny Poffo. Something about the way he arches his body back. His schtick often sees him pausing and putting his face up into the limelight. He was probably the best heel on this show in terms of knowing how to get a rise out of the crowd. Not that anyone else was outright bad at that, but Dar seems to have an instinct about him. I'm shocked that he's only 19, he wrestles like someone a lot more experienced than that.

 

This was probably the match of the night. Despite that, I don't think McKinnan brought it much. He looked off the pace a few times, but he did sell really well for a lot of Dar's stuff. Dar was super focused on the leg for almost the whole match. He kept going back to it. He did some mean-looking (and sounding) low dropkicks onto McKinnan's shin. He had a variety of different kicks and low-attacks with which he targetted that leg. Took it to the mat a few times too.

 

There was one genuine *holy shit* moment, where even I -- a quiet observer mostly -- said "SHIT" out loud: both McKinnan and Dar were standing on the apron outside the ropes and Dar gave McKinnan a fisherman's suplex onto the edge of the ring and outside. Pretty amazing spot that I don't recall seeing before anywhere. Dar went back to the fisherman's suplex twice after that, but he does a release version (i.e. it's not a pin move like the way Hennig did it). I think that was the finish actually: two fisherman suplexes from Dar after the one outside for the 3 count. As well as the amazing bump on the apron, McKinnan also took a tumble down the steps -- must have been about 20 feet of steps.

 

So a FIFTH clean heel win. And that was it.

 

Noam Dar feels like a name you should note down, I can see him going places in a few years. ROH definitely, but he might have what it takes to go all the way. He's 19 and he felt like the most polished performer on the entire card -- and that's not a knock on any of the other guys who were mostly all solid.

 

------

 

All-in-all, this show was way way better than I was expecting. In all honesty, it felt strongly like they didn't need DiBiase there as a draw or an attraction, nor Dreamer for that matter -- although he did help bring something different to the mix. We got comedy, some "hardcore", technical matches and cruiser stuff. None of it was spotty. All of it quite well worked with a strong focus on the crowd, who played their part. My only criticism would be the booking: the two most over faces -- El Ligero and Hanson -- were just pinned clean. But in the two big featured singles matches -- the opener and the main event -- the heels also went over clean. I don't really understand that. MK McKinnan really felt like he could have done with that win too, because he wasn't over to the same extent as the other faces. He did get some cheers but they were a little tokenistic. I'm not sure how sold I am on McKinnan in general to be honest, his selling was good but he didn't show much in his offense, or in terms of charisma or connecting with the crowd.

 

I would definitely consider going to see this company again. I mean hell, I enjoyed this more than I enjoyed most of Wrestlemania. There wasn't a bad match on this card. They announced that Sabu would be coming to one of their shows later this year, and Steve Corino is working a few dates for them. And y'know: why not support local wrestling? These guys are doing something right.

[shoe]

Santo is wrestling in Austin tomorrow and I have to work . This sucks so bad.

[Matt D]

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - September 11, 1992 (9,000)

Owen Hart & Koko B. Ware defeated Skinner & Barry Horowitz when Koko pinned Horowitz

The Mountie pinned Tito Santana

WWF Tag Team Champions Natural Disasters defeated the Beverly Brothers

Shawn Michaels pinned Virgil

Razor Ramon pinned Randy Savage after Ric Flair came ringside (Razor's MSG debut)

Bret Hart pinned Papa Shango

The Undertaker defeated WWF World Champion Ric Flair via disqualification

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - November 28, 1992 (12,300)

Lance Cassidy pinned the Brooklyn Brawler

Crush defeated Repo Man via submission with the head vice

Bob Backlund pinned Rick Martel with a small package (Backlund's MSG return after more than an 8 year absence)

The Nasty Boys defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification when Dibiase shoved Jerry Saggs off the top

The Big Bossman pinned Kamala after Kamala accidentally hit Kimchee; after the bout, Kamala chased Harvey Wippleman and Kimchee backstage

Max Moon defeated Terry Taylor

The Undertaker defeated Nailz at the 12-minute mark with the chokeslam

 

Looking at this, why do people think the second card drew so much more than the first? Is it just the Thanksgiving proximity (which was the 26th)? Did that matter still in 1992? Backlund? I guess the Nasty Boys turn just happened, but I hardly think that was THAT hot an angle. the first card had Savage vs Ramon and Flair vs Undertaker, plus Bret. It was probably just the Thanksgiving weekend thing, right?

 

EDIT: there's a bump like that for that weekend in MSG compared to the last show in 1990 and 1991 too, so that's probably the case, card be damned.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - September 11, 1992 (9,000)

Owen Hart & Koko B. Ware defeated Skinner & Barry Horowitz when Koko pinned Horowitz

The Mountie pinned Tito Santana

WWF Tag Team Champions Natural Disasters defeated the Beverly Brothers

Shawn Michaels pinned Virgil

Razor Ramon pinned Randy Savage after Ric Flair came ringside (Razor's MSG debut)

Bret Hart pinned Papa Shango

The Undertaker defeated WWF World Champion Ric Flair via disqualification

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - November 28, 1992 (12,300)

Lance Cassidy pinned the Brooklyn Brawler

Crush defeated Repo Man via submission with the head vice

Bob Backlund pinned Rick Martel with a small package (Backlund's MSG return after more than an 8 year absence)

The Nasty Boys defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification when Dibiase shoved Jerry Saggs off the top

The Big Bossman pinned Kamala after Kamala accidentally hit Kimchee; after the bout, Kamala chased Harvey Wippleman and Kimchee backstage

Max Moon defeated Terry Taylor

The Undertaker defeated Nailz at the 12-minute mark with the chokeslam

 

Looking at this, why do people think the second card drew so much more than the first? Is it just the Thanksgiving proximity (which was the 26th)? Did that matter still in 1992? Backlund? I guess the Nasty Boys turn just happened, but I hardly think that was THAT hot an angle. the first card had Savage vs Ramon and Flair vs Undertaker, plus Bret. It was probably just the Thanksgiving weekend thing, right?

 

EDIT: there's a bump like that for that weekend in MSG compared to the last show in 1990 and 1991 too, so that's probably the case, card be damned.

From what I can infer by past experience, Fall of 1992 is always a slow month for WWF due to competition from football and the fallout of SummerSlam. The build towards the Survivor Series has always been well below the rest of the other three PPVs. Also, the fallout of Survivor Series could have been a reason for the draw. Or maybe Nailz actually appealed to enough of the kids to have made a difference? When I was a kid, we all thought Nailz was a scary bad ass. But he was jobbed to the Big Boss Man at Survivor Series, so no one should have thought of Nailz as a serious monster threat to the Undertaker. Who knows. There could also be a type of randomness at work, as business patterns in 1992 were simply erratic - all nosediving from the time Hogan left in March. That variance from September to November could simply reflect that waning interest, as one would think when business is healthy, attendance is either stable or is on the rise. That'd be an interesting study, I guess - whether the standard deviation of a year's attendance correlates with the general health of the business, as counterintuitive as that sounds.

 

Whatever the case, you'd think Ric Flair and the Undertaker would draw very well. But maybe the chickenshit v. zombie pairing wouldn't have an appeal since you could call that match right before you see it. Flair does some offense. He acts scared. Undertaker zombie walks towards him. Flair cowers. Cheap shot. Taker no-sells some more. So on until it gets to an anti-climatic no finish. Yawn.

[artDDP]

When covering the WWF taking back WCW's booking of MSG the Saturday after Thanksgiving 1994 Pro Wrestling Illustrated mentioned that that is usually a very strong date for the WWF.

[caley]

Is anybody else surprised at what a good promo Ryback is?! Like, last week, he delivers this perfect promo, hitting all the key points about his problems with Cena, making him bad without being whiny, being kinda cool, not screwing up his lines or anything. Just solid. You go back a couple months when he was a face and everything was a tie-in to the 'Feed me more' lines about food and eating and the like and it really shows how WWE is completely incapable of understanding/delivering a face you can root for. There's just a genuine gap between what they think a face should act and sound like and what your average fan wants a face to act and sound like. I mean, take Sheamus for instance. Tonight, Mark Henry comes out and wants to prove he's the strongest man alive with a tug-of-war (And WHO thought that was something they should book on Raw?!). He soundly defeats Tensai and Brodus, then Sheamus comes out and says he wants to challenge him. He is about to be soundly defeated, so he lets go of the rope to make Henry fall down, then kicks him in the face. How is that the actions of a good guy?! Or the Miz! How can anyone think Miz looks/acts like someone the crowd should want to cheer. And that's not even tackling the whole Cenastuff where the crowd has just completely turned on him and they're having to resort to stuff like "Look at the Make-A-Wish stuff, he's a really good guy!" booking (Admittedly, that whole scene was really awesome stuff) but with a guy like Cena, they shouldn't have to have to do stuff like that, but they don't know how to script promos for him that don't make him sound like an unlikable douche. It's really bizarre.

[sek69]

One of the more boggling things in WWE is how they continue to script John Cena in a way that seems to be designed to get him booed. Jokey Cena is fine in small doses, but they have him do it so often it makes it hard to like him since he comes off as so obnoxious. It also ties in to the other main issue I have with WWE, is how they script guys to use verbiage no one would use in real life. It's bad enough booking changes based on what wild hair crawls up Vince's ass on a given day, the writers are so afraid of violating the banned words list they have guys speaking in some strange Newspeak-sounding language.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Cena yelling "Come on, Danial Bryan!" and not "Come on, Danial" or "Come on, Bryan!" when they've teamed, like tonight, is terrible, unless it's some inside rib deal.

[rovert]

You would guess the hotel or travel company got his name messed up over Europe on that one.

[Chess Knight]

I get bothered by WWE wrestlers saying things like they're announcing something (well, they are announcing something, I guess) and it comes off as so inorganic. Two wrestlers are in a yelling match and pretty clearly don't like each other and one of them says "OK, IT WILL BE _MY NAME_ VERSUS _YOUR NAME_ FOR THE WWE CHAMPIONSHIP!" I get it's advertising or whatever and I probably shouldn't be bothered by it but it's just so lame. I feel embarrassed watching it and greatly hope nobody comes into the room when something like that is said.

[Guest Andrews]

Cena yelling "Come on, Danial Bryan!" and not "Come on, Danial" or "Come on, Bryan!" when they've teamed, like tonight, is terrible, unless it's some inside rib deal.

Had to be some sort of inside rib, that's how I'm taking it.

[KrisZ]

Well they are basically brothers in law now

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Looking at this, why do people think the second card drew so much more than the first? Is it just the Thanksgiving proximity (which was the 26th)? Did that matter still in 1992? Backlund? I guess the Nasty Boys turn just happened, but I hardly think that was THAT hot an angle. the first card had Savage vs Ramon and Flair vs Undertaker, plus Bret. It was probably just the Thanksgiving weekend thing, right?

 

EDIT: there's a bump like that for that weekend in MSG compared to the last show in 1990 and 1991 too, so that's probably the case, card be damned.

The Thanksgiving weekend shows in '90 and '91 had Hogan while the previous shows didn't. The '92 jump in attendance was probably for Bob's return.

[caley]

BTW, I wasn't the only one who caught the long awkward silence last night after Jerry Lawler said he'd his heart broken once and JBL and Cole laughed and said "Only once!?" to which Lawler, not as quick on his feet anymore, responded "I wrote a country song about it: 'You Broke My Heart so I Broke Your Jaw'." and it just went deathly quiet. You could practically hear Vince McMahon screaming through the headset!

[flyonthewall2983]

I didn't watch it but it caused a bit of a stir on Twitter.

[cm funk]

Is that bad because he had a heart attack or because he insinuated he punched out a woman? Or did a young Paul E. Dangerously break his heart?

[flyonthewall2983]

The stir on Twitter would indicate door number two.

[caley]

I think he was trying to make a heart-attack joke and when Cole and JBL took it to be about being dumped he fell back on and old line of his that he could've gotten away with in the 80s (maybe early 90s) that basically implies he punched out a woman.

[MikeCampbell]

I took it as a subtle reference to the months-long drama with Stacy Carter in 2001.

[cm funk]

*edit wrong thread

[cabinboy454]

Did Hogan believe the Dungeon of Doom angle would be a moneymaker or was it just him stroking his own ego?

[flyonthewall2983]

A bit of both maybe. And it was a nice excuse to have the same matches over and over with heels he'd worked with before. I think besides Morrus, he'd worked angles with everyone in the group.

[artDDP]

It also could have had something to do with the then-booker being the central heel.

[KrisZ]

NOW this is awesome