Comments that don't warrant a thread - Part 3

[The Chief]

 

 

Cesaro looks like a professional wrestler

Dick Murdoch can go fuck himself I guess.

Murdoch looks like an ass kicker. Hero doesn't, which doesn't really work when your gimmick is that you knock people out. I think there's a big difference between fat guys who drink beer and guys who just look out of shape. I see a lot of people being up Dusty as a counterpoint to Hero, but even in his later days Dusty was a big dude. Yeah he was fat but he had big arms, shoulders, etc. Hero just looks weak. He might be a great wrestler but you run the risk of making it look like anybody can do this job when you put people who look like that on TV.

[Steenalized]

 

 

Chris Hero, fuck sake...

 

Kinda scary how fast that happened, but why should I care if he can still perform?

 

 

Remember how much better Big Show is when he's only billed as 500lbs? Less weight, more conditioning, more conditioning? Better matches.

 

Big Show is about seven feet tall and has huge weight swings that are going to massively effect mobility. Hero has shown he can still perform even when he gets heavy. Not saying that there's zero effect, but looking fat doesn't mean you can't go out there and put on a show. Like someone said, Dick Murdoch, and scores of other great wrestlers at that, can go fuck themselves, right?

[Steenalized]

 

 

Cesaro looks like a professional wrestler

Dick Murdoch can go fuck himself I guess.

Murdoch looks like an ass kicker. Hero doesn't, which doesn't really work when your gimmick is that you knock people out. I think there's a big difference between fat guys who drink beer and guys who just look out of shape. I see a lot of people being up Dusty as a counterpoint to Hero, but even in his later days Dusty was a big dude. Yeah he was fat but he had big arms, shoulders, etc. Hero just looks weak. He might be a great wrestler but you run the risk of making it look like anybody can do this job when you put people who look like that on TV.

 

This aesthetic argument I do get. Hero's KO gimmick probably looks better when he's lean or if he bulked up.

[Coffey]

Speaking of Chris Hero & the ROH Pure Title reminded me of one of my favorite moments in ROH: during an ROH Pure Title Match, the power went out for a short time. Chris Hero informed the ring announcer to tell the referee that during the blackout, his opponent had used all of his rope breaks. It was just a funny moment making the best of a bad situation.

[FedEx227]

 

Chris Hero, fuck sake...

 

Kinda scary how fast that happened, but why should I care if he can still perform?

 

 

People have been trained (by WWE) to only accept wrestlers as peak physical conditioned athletes when it's largely bullshit. Some guys can perform just as well even with a little flab.

 

The problem I see, is devotion and that's why I'm okay that WWE wants their guys to at least look like they are in decent shape. You're married to your body in that company and you should at some level want to look good, want to workout and want to be at your athletic peak if possible.

 

Doesn't affect my enjoyment whatsoever, but I totally understand their reasoning.

[SomethingSavage]

I'm an avid weight-lifter myself, but I have buddies who absolutely CANNOT wrap their minds around the sort of discipline that goes into dieting or exercising - much less keeping a regular routine. So I get it.

 

I get the line of thinking that some people just DO NOT care to get up & put the time into a gym session or whatever. Totally understandable. But when it goes hand-in-hand with your line of work - say, when you're an athlete or doing physical work - it kind of goes with the territory.

 

And, let's be real. There's so many options. It's not like you HAVE to lift heavy iron. You can be lean and look "ripped" enough just through smart nutrition and HIIT cardio. There's also body-weight training, etc., etc., etc.

So, in that case, if he just lets himself go when left to his own devices - then yeah. It kind of gives off the impression that he just doesn't want to put in the work that goes along with his occupation. And that's a shame, because Hero is clearly devoted to his craft in other areas.

[Fantastic]

I'm an avid weight-lifter myself, but I have buddies who absolutely CANNOT wrap their minds around the sort of discipline that goes into dieting or exercising - much less keeping a regular routine. So I get it.

 

I get the line of thinking that some people just DO NOT care to get up & put the time into a gym session or whatever. Totally understandable. But when it goes hand-in-hand with your line of work - say, when you're an athlete or doing physical work - it kind of goes with the territory.

 

And, let's be real. There's so many options. It's not like you HAVE to lift heavy iron. You can be lean and look "ripped" enough just through smart nutrition and HIIT cardio. There's also body-weight training, etc., etc., etc.

 

So, in that case, if he just lets himself go when left to his own devices - then yeah. It kind of gives off the impression that he just doesn't want to put in the work that goes along with his occupation. And that's a shame, because Hero is clearly devoted to his craft in other areas.

 

I agree with everything said here. Looking like shit creates the impression you just don't care.

[(BP)]

The sentiment at the time was they asked Hero to something, and he didn't do it, so he was done. Now, if he can get away with making a great living on the indies and look like that, more power to him. Although, his stomach looks uncomfortable. Like, I've had a gut at various times in my life, and pictures like that keep me working out.

[BillThompson]

There's not a thing unprofessional about the way he looks. This is like the whole "beards are unprofessional" nonsense. It's a stupid social construct that needs to get the heck out of town.

[SomethingSavage]

Body fat is stored energy. It's excess glucose. In that sense, it's good for professional athletes to have some. I'm not a guy that wants everyone to look ultra-ripped and super lean, because you generally feel miserable. You're temperamental. You're edgy. And - what's worse - you usually drive yourself to stress, which can drive your body into a catabolic state ANYWAY. And that just means you have to work harder to convince your body to hold onto what muscle mass it DOES have, because it's constantly fighting to eat up that mass (or ANYTHING) to remain in an anabolic state.

 

So yeah. Carbs and sugars are essential in giving athletes that explosive strength and power. Proteins and fats simply cannot be converted as quickly OR efficiently into that kind of energy.

 

To that end, I have no qualms with guys having excess body fat here and there. But if you honestly look at THAT particular picture of Hero and believe he appears fit & healthy, then it's a waste of time explaining anything further.

I'd be happy to discuss it more in-depth, but really. Come on, man. A protruding potbelly not only paints the image of a guy that doesn't give a shit (and KUDOS if that's the gimmick), but it also means he's not maximizing his true potential as a performer.

 

Likewise - and to be completely fair and impartial - I would say the same thing if a guy was worried more about appearing super lean and dehydrated. Because there's no way in hell they're going to go out there and perform at their PEAK without the kind of glucose reserves that (yes) goes with a little extra water under the skin and above the skeletal muscles. And sure. Maybe it's not the sexiest thing on the days when it happens to hide your abs, but hey. It happens.

[BillThompson]

Again, you're talking about a social construct. The idea that someone with a potbelly isn't maximizing their potential as a performer is a laughable concept to me.

[Steenalized]

Body fat is stored energy. It's excess glucose. In that sense, it's good for professional athletes to have some. I'm not a guy that wants everyone to look ultra-ripped and super lean, because you generally feel miserable. You're temperamental. You're edgy. And - what's worse - you usually drive yourself to stress, which can drive your body into a catabolic state ANYWAY. And that just means you have to work harder to convince your body to hold onto what muscle mass it DOES have, because it's constantly fighting to eat up that mass (or ANYTHING) to remain in an anabolic state.

 

So yeah. Carbs and sugars are essential in giving athletes that explosive strength and power. Proteins and fats simply cannot be converted as quickly OR efficiently into that kind of energy.

 

To that end, I have no qualms with guys having excess body fat here and there. But if you honestly look at THAT particular picture of Hero and believe he appears fit & healthy, then it's a waste of time explaining anything further.

 

I'd be happy to discuss it more in-depth, but really. Come on, man. A protruding potbelly not only paints the image of a guy that doesn't give a shit (and KUDOS if that's the gimmick), but it also means he's not maximizing his true potential as a performer.

 

Likewise - and to be completely fair and impartial - I would say the same thing if a guy was worried more about appearing super lean and dehydrated. Because there's no way in hell they're going to go out there and perform at their PEAK without the kind of glucose reserves that (yes) goes with a little extra water under the skin and above the skeletal muscles. And sure. Maybe it's not the sexiest thing on the days when it happens to hide your abs, but hey. It happens.

No one is claiming Hero looks like he's about to be on the cover of a fitness magazine or that he's the picture of (as Bill would point out, the societal construct) of health. But having a gut doesn't mean he's going to blow up 5 minutes into a match. It doesn't mean he suddenly isn't a good wrestler. It's a nonsense argument to say otherwise. Hero doesn't need to be at 12% bodyfat to maximize his wrestling potential.

[SomethingSavage]

Somebody PLEASE point out where I said the guy would blow up 5 minutes into a match or even slightly indicate that he would? I'm begging ya.

 

I've seen plenty of Hero. I've seen RECENT Chris Hero matches. And the guy hasn't shown much change in his quality of work. So it's all a moot point.

But I never said anything about his work suffering. I said he isn't maximizing his potential as a performer with a gut like that. And he isn't. The fuel in the tank is only half full when you look like that. Similarly, I also stated the same for guys who go TOO LEAN and put hold onto no energy reserves whatsoever. Never once said Hero's work was weaker now versus before. But nah. I was more or less addressing the issue of body fat in wrestling.

 

I read the part you went out of your way to bold. I stand by that statement. That's not an image of a guy that you'd classify as fit & healthy. Period. Both in the sense of a "social construct" and a "biological" one. Because hey. That's science. That's the human body.

 

Did I say he was knocking on death's door? Nope. Did I say he was morbidly obese? Don't think so. Did I even partially IMPLY that he couldn't work as a result? Nope. If anything, my point about guys being TOO LEAN kind of hinged on the notion that the "ideal" body type should be met somewhere in the middle.

[Steenalized]

Your point is that he looks too fat to "maximize his wrestling potential," which is nonsense. There are plenty of guys who are/were fat and were great wrestlers and plenty of guys who look like a million bucks that can't wrestle worth a lick. You can run marathons and still look awful, you can look lean (but healthy) and gas out fast. His work, as far as anyone has mentioned, has been unaffected. The argument that he's squandering his potential is baseless, pure conjecture because you think a lean-muscle aesthetic is preferential. Generally, I'd agree that it *is* preferential. But that isn't a reason to doubt Hero or act like this is a big deal, particularly because Hero has definitely been heavy before.

[SomethingSavage]

Your point is that he looks too fat to "maximize his wrestling potential," which is nonsense.

 

Again, I'd love for you to go back and point out where I ever ONCE stated that less fatty looks equated to better wrestling potential. If anything, all I said was that taking EITHER body image to the extreme was detrimental to the overall performance of an athlete. And it is. Again, that's not some kooky social construct that just recently popped up in our culture. That's science. I'm sorry you disagree with biology, bro. I really am.

 

There are plenty of guys who are/were fat and were great wrestlers and plenty of guys who look like a million bucks that can't wrestle worth a lick. You can run marathons and still look awful, you can look lean (but healthy) and gas out fast. His work, as far as anyone has mentioned, has been unaffected.

 

I actually pretty much stated ALL of that myself. So I appreciate you agreeing with me, since I sort of fail to see just WHO you're arguing with at this point.

 

Because, again, all I ever pointed out was how the body runs off of excess stored energy. That's it. Never even specifically spoke about Hero, other than to say that this one particular picture of him - which I never saw before today, so I can't say that I've fairly even seen him compete in THAT shape - is not the image of a fit & healthy guy. And it isn't.

 

I know that there have been spindly-armed, potbellied wrestlers in the past. I know they've had outstanding matches and been promoted as legitimate ass-kickers. But where did you see me dispute ANY of that? Oh. You didn't? I'll carry on then.

 

Tell you what though. If you really and honestly believe in your head that carbs, glucose, and (as a DIRECT result) body fat has nothing to do with maximizing peak performance and having "gas in the tank" - then talk to MMA fighters sometime. Chat with a strength coach. Talk to a power lifter.

 

I dare you to speak with someone from a real combat sport or anything REMOTELY athletic outside of the pro wrestling bubble. In the real world, that's how this stuff works. Hell, AMATEUR wrestlers and PRO cage fighters - the closest things to being cut from the same cloth as pro wrestling - have literally KILLED THEMSELVES trying to master the perfect formula and cycle to time their diets just to be in top form. If glucose really plays no part in peak performance, then why the hell do you CONSTANTLY hear so many of these MMA fighters talking about how the slightest adjustment in their diets or training before a big fight has made all the difference? It's hardly a throwaway assumption.

 

Just for the record, I really hold no preference on the matter. If a guy can perform and entertain me, then I really couldn't care any less what he looks like. When potbellied Hero snaps off a crisp rolling elbow to the jaw, and his opponent sells it like it's nap time? Then I'm all over that shit. Does it matter to me that it came from a guy who looks like he spends 75% of his time in a rocking chair on his front lawn with a cold beer in one hand & a bag of Funyuns in the other? Nope. Not in the slightest.

[Dylan Waco]

Thank God Buddy Rose disagreed with biology, he was a better wrestler for it.

[SomethingSavage]

Damn it, Dylan. You hilarious son of a bitch, you.

[Dylan Waco]

Also wrestling is not MMA or power lifting. A strength coach wouldn't know jack shit about pro wrestling unless he was a wrestler or a wrestling fan, so I'm not sure why I would give a fuck what they had to say about diet, training, et. and how it relates to what is literally a theatrical performance.

 

This is not to say that I don't want people to be in good shape, have good cardio, et. but the implication behind the argument presented seems to be "workrate = good work," which I disagree with. If that's not the implication than I am either completely missing the point, or it's not being explained very well.

[Matt D]

 

[SomethingSavage]

Your points are all valid, Dylan. But nah. I never intended to imply that work rate = good work. In fact, the ONLY time I referenced "good work" and those standards at all was to say that Hero has shown me NO SIGNS of his own work suffering as a result of the gut he's gained.

 

You could point out that I pretty much implied that work rate is directly related to conditioning however. And that's why I mentioned the strength coaches, MMA fighters, outside sources, and so on.

 

But you're absolutely right. Anyone that's a fan of a specific guy's performance really shouldn't give two shits about any of that stuff. At the end of the day, if you were entertained then that's all that matters. Of course, I pretty much closed my last post on that note. So I kind of fail to see where the disagreement lies in much of anything. I actually think we're almost all in agreement.

 

The only thing I even came here to say in the first place was that body fat in the pro wrestling context has some MAJOR misconceptions. Body image in pro wrestling has scaled back & forth from marginally unrealistic expectations to MAJORLY unrealistic expectations. And I just wanted to clarify that taking body fat to EITHER extreme - whether it be super-vascular lean mass or sloppy fat - is detrimental to the work rate. And it is.

 

Of course, I suppose you're right about the art behind the performance. And I never meant to undersell that, but I guess I can kind of see how it'd seem like I did just that. I mean, specifically in the cases of guys like Vader or Bigelow, you could certainly say that their images ENHANCED their performances. They'd still look and behave like monsters, but some of those spectacular spots aren't nearly as awe-inspiring when they're done by slim or trim monsters instead of the super heavyweight ones.

[Steenalized]

 

Your point is that he looks too fat to "maximize his wrestling potential," which is nonsense.

 

Again, I'd love for you to go back and point out where I ever ONCE stated that less fatty looks equated to better wrestling potential. If anything, all I said was that taking EITHER body image to the extreme was detrimental to the overall performance of an athlete. And it is. Again, that's not some kooky social construct that just recently popped up in our culture. That's science. I'm sorry you disagree with biology, bro. I really am.

 

There are plenty of guys who are/were fat and were great wrestlers and plenty of guys who look like a million bucks that can't wrestle worth a lick. You can run marathons and still look awful, you can look lean (but healthy) and gas out fast. His work, as far as anyone has mentioned, has been unaffected.

 

I actually pretty much stated ALL of that myself. So I appreciate you agreeing with me, since I sort of fail to see just WHO you're arguing with at this point.

 

Because, again, all I ever pointed out was how the body runs off of excess stored energy. That's it. Never even specifically spoke about Hero, other than to say that this one particular picture of him - which I never saw before today, so I can't say that I've fairly even seen him compete in THAT shape - is not the image of a fit & healthy guy. And it isn't.

 

I know that there have been spindly-armed, potbellied wrestlers in the past. I know they've had outstanding matches and been promoted as legitimate ass-kickers. But where did you see me dispute ANY of that? Oh. You didn't? I'll carry on then.

 

Tell you what though. If you really and honestly believe in your head that carbs, glucose, and (as a DIRECT result) body fat has nothing to do with maximizing peak performance and having "gas in the tank" - then talk to MMA fighters sometime. Chat with a strength coach. Talk to a power lifter.

 

I dare you to speak with someone from a real combat sport or anything REMOTELY athletic outside of the pro wrestling bubble. In the real world, that's how this stuff works. Hell, AMATEUR wrestlers and PRO cage fighters - the closest things to being cut from the same cloth as pro wrestling - have literally KILLED THEMSELVES trying to master the perfect formula and cycle to time their diets just to be in top form. If glucose really plays no part in peak performance, then why the hell do you CONSTANTLY hear so many of these MMA fighters talking about how the slightest adjustment in their diets or training before a big fight has made all the difference? It's hardly a throwaway assumption.

 

Just for the record, I really hold no preference on the matter. If a guy can perform and entertain me, then I really couldn't care any less what he looks like. When potbellied Hero snaps off a crisp rolling elbow to the jaw, and his opponent sells it like it's nap time? Then I'm all over that shit. Does it matter to me that it came from a guy who looks like he spends 75% of his time in a rocking chair on his front lawn with a cold beer in one hand & a bag of Funyuns in the other? Nope. Not in the slightest.

 

To the first point: "I said he isn't maximizing his potential as a performer with a gut like that. And he isn't. The fuel in the tank is only half full when you look like that." That is to say, Chris Hero having a less fatty look would mean he is closer to fulfilling his wrestling potential. It seems like you're arguing you have to be at 100% peak physical condition to maximize your "wrestling potential", which like Dylan said, is close to say work rate has a one-to-one relationship with good work.

 

Your point, and I'll grant you you're not the one who first posted the picture and made a topic about it, also looks like it includes "Chris Hero got fat and that makes him a lesser performer because it's unprofessional/it looks unathletic/it looks unappealing/people might think he isn't taking wrestling seriously." Okay, it's not the image of health and fitness. No one thinks it is, but it also doesn't mean he's in bad shape and thus unable to wrestle. Which brings it to the ultimate point: who cares if he got heavier?

 

Also, not to just brush aside your points about MMA/combat sports and what not, but I that is an entirely different event aside from pro wrestling. I don't get what your ranting is about there, since obviously prize fighters have to be in elite shape. I've had amateur boxing matches and even in three three minute rounds being in the better shape of the two guys is half the battle. But this is PWO, so I'll leave this aspect of the conversation to rest.

[SomethingSavage]

Haha. Hardly ranting about anything.

 

But like I said - I can see if it came across that I thought work rate correlated to good work. And that's not the case, so I'm sort of stuck defending something I didn't INTEND to imply in the first place. And I'm not interested in doing that, so yeah.

 

Basically just came here to address the body fat issue, like I said before. And I've done that.

 

I think we're all pretty much on the same page about everything else, although I still say that his look COULD create the impression with others that he doesn't care much. Or, in the WWE's case, that he doesn't care enough in their eyes. And that's a shame, since anyone who knows Hero knows he's dedicated to the craft enough to tweak his style, train students, and so on.

[PeteF3]

Who would win a marathon between Buddy Rose, Chris Hero, and Roy Nelson? Could any of them beat that Kobayashi guy in a competitive eating contest? Could Kobayashi beat Nelson in a fight?

[JerryvonKramer]

My views:

 

1. I understand Something Savage's point, he's made some good ones, but wrestling has never been presented solely as an athletic contest.

 

2. Wrestling has always had two faces: the catch-as-catch-can technical and athletic contest and the side-show carny attraction. In its roots, there was always an element of the wrestling star taking on anyone who walked in the ring off the street from the audience.

 

3. Those contests of wrestler vs. bloke off the street, started off as shoots, but later could be worked. So the guy off the street was secretly a worker too.

 

4. In addition, you've got that carnival aspect too, so as well as the technical star, you've always had the big or exotic characters. Giants, freaks, Sheiks, "flamboyent" types, etc.

 

5. So by the time most of us started watching wrestling, you have this lovely potpourri of guys from seemingly all sorts of backgrounds, some from sports backgrounds, some from "parts unknown" and some people who seem like they've just walked in off the street (think of gimmicks like Tugboat or Big Josh, even Mick Foley had a bit of that)

 

6. In addition, you have the bar-room brawler type. Wrestling isn't always about the best athlete, but the person who might win in a fight. Guys like Dick the Bruiser, The Crusher, Dick Murdoch or Harley Race who might have drank a 6-pack of beer or two, but could still knock your head off. That's a different version of "worked" toughness.

 

7. You also have the concept of the veteran. Guys who are past their prime physically, but who get by on ring smarts. Chris Hero surely is getting to this stage of his career now.

 

So ...

 

8. I think wrestling could probably do with more fat men in general. That feeling of variety you get from the 70s and 80s has slowly gone missing down the years and it's added to the vague sense many of us have about the product being homogenized.

 

Wrestling should stay true to that mixture of worked athletic contest and carny nonsense it's always been.

[kjh]

Re: Hero maximising his potential as a wrestler, there's no way he'll get another chance in WWE at age 34, with or without the gut. Can't really blame him for letting himself go a bit, as having your wrestling dreams crushed is a bitter pill to swallow.