WWF announcing debate mega-thread

[JerryvonKramer]

On Monsoon solo being decent, I wonder how much Solie is as revered as he is comes down to the fact that 90% of his stuff was worked solo.

 

How was Solie when he had to interact with colourful characters etc? I mean obviously, Solie was legit great at what he did and there's no argument about him one of the GOAT play-by-play guys for his knowledge of moves and so on, but I just wonder about how he was with a colour man.

 

As I said before, JR in 92 came across as brittle and inflexible in 92 when he had to work with Ventura, and I'd say that's a knock on much-pimped early Ross.

[Loss]

On Monsoon solo being decent, I wonder how much Solie is as revered as he is comes down to the fact that 90% of his stuff was worked solo.

 

How was Solie when he had to interact with colourful characters etc? I mean obviously, Solie was legit great at what he did and there's no argument about him one of the GOAT play-by-play guys for his knowledge of moves and so on, but I just wonder about how he was with a colour man.

 

As I said before, JR in 92 came across as brittle and inflexible in 92 when he had to work with Ventura, and I'd say that's a knock on much-pimped early Ross.

I liked how Ross and Ventura worked together, even if they both hated it. The tension worked for me.

 

Solie worked in a different era. His job was not to entertain fans. It was to try to help sell the idea that what fans were watching was real, and convince them to buy tickets. Whether he did that by himself or in the company of others is really unimportant, but an announcer being funny would have been frowned upon during that time period.

[JerryvonKramer]

I liked how Ross and Ventura worked too, but they worked because Ventura was smart and flexibile enough to adapt his style, not the other way around.

 

Did Solie happen to do any announcing in his WCW run? I used to love his news updates.

[Matt D]

WCW Prime has Solie/Dusty for a while in 95 before he had a hissy fit over Angelo Poffo entering the HOF and drunkenly stumbled out of the company. (Or is that just a wrestling myth too)

 

I want to hear some Solie/DDP from Florida for some reason.

[Loss]

Ross and Solie called Power Hour together for a little while in late '89, and also called Clash 9. Each had some good calls ("Five letters. Two words. I Quit" in Solie's case), but I thought they were too alike to be effective. It was cool though hearing them each try to outdo the other in how strongly they could gush over Luger.

 

For PBP guys working together, I think Jim Ross and Bob Caudle were a GREAT team, just because their styles were so different. Caudle wasn't as emotional, but he was good at explaining things in ways that were easy to understand. I still love the Bash '89 call of Steamboat/Luger with Caudle using the "take my ball and go home" analogy so perfectly.

[Matt D]

Have we talked about Rod Trongard yet?

[khawk20]

Have we talked about Rod Trongard yet?

[Ricky Jackson]

As a kid I really liked Trongard calling the AWA shows from Vegas. I thought he had a great voice, still do. He just *sounded* like a sports announcer, and I thought he made the AWA shows seem more important than they really were. I know he is universally hated around here, a worst announcer of all time candidate. His WWF work sucked, no doubt. In the last few years I've watched more of his AWA work and some of it is pretty bad. Still, I have a soft spot for the guy mainly because of nostalgia for my youth.

[Matt D]

I've head a bunch of Trongard/Superstar over the last couple of days and it's a weird pairing. I agree that he "sounded" right. And he also seemed to know what he was doing in there. It was his calling. That doesn't mean he was any good, but it sure as hell stands out when put against guys like Sean Mooney.

[PeteF3]

Getting back to Solie with partners, his GCW partnership with Roddy Piper (who pre-dated Ventura as far as being a national, permanent heel color man) is generally well-thought-of. Solie's dignified, low-key approach combined with Piper's manic screeching sounds like a train wreck but they did have chemistry together and it's a big part of what made the angle where Piper saves Solie from Don Muraco so memorable.

 

Solie & Buddy Colt were a longtime team in Florida but Colt didn't add much. It was thought that a cripple like Colt couldn't be a heel announcer so he was made into a babyface, which didn't suit him at all.

 

Solie & Bobby Heenan at various times in WCW was a train wreck. Actually the biggest problem is Solie laughed at Heenan too much, even when Heenan was making fun of him directly.

 

I'd like to know if Solie & Ventura ever teamed up. They were in WCW together for awhile and I'm curious if either one did at least a fill-in on the other's show.

[JerryvonKramer]

Yeah, I'd be very interested to see / hear that also. I suspect Ventura would be really respectful and on best behaviour.

 

At the same time, I suspect Solie would overlook or not respond to any outrageous claims Jesse made about himself.

 

I'd be very surprised if Jesse berated Solie like he did with McMahon and Schiavone. He worked Monsoon differently too -- he was more respectful with him than he was with McMahon, always.

 

I reckon there MUST be a random Saturday Night or something with Solie and Ventura. There must be.

[JerryvonKramer]

Oh of course, Tully vs. Funk legends match from Slamboree '94.

 

Might rewatch just for the commentary.

[jdw]

FWIW, I watched the 3/23/83 MSG show last night, in particular the Backlund-Muraco match. Monsoon was on commentary, solo. He was decent.

 

Maybe having to do the job by yourself is condusive to calling the action better, I don't know. I do know how much Monsoon and McMahon changed as announcers when they had colour guys with them, although in fairness the over-the-top announcing atmosphere of later-80's WWF broadcasts didn't become like that because of an addition to the booth.

 

Still, it was interesting to hear Monsoon as a solo guy.

Looking back at what I wrote about the two 1983 MSG matches between Don & Bob, here's what I said about the various announcers. Looks like Vince & Gorilla at the table at the Feb match, with Kal doing backstage. Gorilla solo in March.

 

02/18/83 Bob Backlund vs Don Muraco

 

Gorrilla starts talking out of his ass about never seeing Bob use the headlock as much as he's using it here, all of a minute into Bob's control segment. Typical Monsoon being an idiot.

 

 

[...]

 

Don transitions to offense with something between a belly-to-belly and a spinebuster. Muraco is terrific in working a slow transition, with Vince picking up on it after a bit to point out that Don was still feeling the effects of the headlock.

 

[...]

 

Cool post match as they cut to Kal Rudman who is in position to interview Don right at the MSG curtain. Kal and Don is always solid gold, and Don's all fired up here. But the great thing is the shot shows right up the aisle to the ring, and you can see Bob getting more and more pissed. You can see him move through the ropes, and MSG Production cuts to a ringside camera just in time to see Bob coming off the apron to the floor. Don't is still on the mic talking to Kal when Bob comes running up behind Don to nail him. Kal is awesome:

 

"Call security!!! Call security!!! Call security!!!"

 

Seemed to touch on three things that I pretty consistently do with WWF matches from the era:

 

* Vince = really great in small little ways

 

* Kal = Campy Greatness

 

* Gorilla = ass

 

 

03/20/83 Bob Backlund vs Don Muraco

 

Don finally takes over after Bob feeds him a low blow. The strike is perfectly legal in a TDM, though it's a sign of just how shitty of an announcer that Gorilla was that after calling the low blow he indicates the ref can award the match to Backlund for that. Finally, about 40 seconds after the spot, it sounds like someone told Monsoon that it's a freaking TDM and no holds are barred. In classic Monsoon fashion when he's been wrong, he makes no correct, just pretends he didn't fuck up and instead starts talking about how everything is legal in the match. A good announcer would have pointed out that now that he thought about it, the ref was right to not award the match as no holds are barred, and while it could normally get Muraco DQ'd, it doesn't happen tonight. And weave into the storyline that it was Backlund who wanted this match, and it's the risk that he took.

 

Anyway, Don follows with a nice reverse splash off the ropes for a two count(!). When Muraco is stomping Backlund on the apron, Monsoon complete's his full 180 degree Cover His Ass turn by getting on the ref for warning Don. You see, Gorilla knows the rules of the match, and Worley is now the one who is the fuck up. And people wonder why I think Gorilla was a dogshit announcer and Vince was great. Go back and watch the Backlund vs Patera TDM in MSG and pay attention to how Vince is perfectly insynch with Backlund and Patera as the start laying down the storyline of the "no holds barred" concept of the match. He nails it. Gorilla doesn't until it's pointed out to him. Prick.

Yeah... that about Gorilla isn't uncommon, and really is annoying. Earlier in the walk through of the match I pointed out that Fink was very clear in the pre-match that it was a TDM, so Gorilla can't fall back on the excuse that it wasn't announced. He just was being Gorilla here.

 

I've heard him in another solo booth earlier in the decade in MSG... which I could remember what it was, but seem to recall it was on one of Frank's Round Robin or Backlund & More tapes. Anyway, Gorilla goes off riffing about himself rather than the match, undercuts the wrestlers... just is a general prick in it. I wish I could remember the specific match, because it would make seeking out that entire MSG card interesting just to see how he was from start to finish, dealing with the curtain jerkers and midcard filler.

 

I'll admit that Dick Graham & Kal Rudman in Philly *weren't* good. Despite all the wrestling matches they called over the years, they weren't exactly "inside wrestling" guys who knew the art of work and storytelling the wrestlers were up to, and could craft their announcing to be insynch with it. But they *tried*, they sure as hell were enthusiastic about it, they had a good deal of fun with it, and seemed to enjoy playing along. They are massively campy fun at their best, and at their worst are so-bad-they're-good to a degree. Once one gets past the fact that they're "not good" relative to the greatness of Lance or the solid quality of Ross At His Best and accept that they're a pair goofy... they're actually fun when you pick up on their goofiness.

 

"He hit him THERE!!!!"

-Kal Rudman

 

I mean... that's just great shit.

 

John

[jdw]

Have we talked about Rod Trongard yet?

 

Tell us what you really think, Kevin.

 

John

[kjh]

Ventura's WCW run came up on Wrestling Observer Radio today regarding the heat between him and Jim Ross. Dave said that Jesse can't be told anything, thinks he's the smartest guy in the world, doesn't take criticism well, he was very good at that point in time at the ability to be entertaining while half assing it, shut down when Watts and Ross gave him pointers on how they wanted him to announce, and thought Jesse sucked by the time they sent him home because he didn't care anymore (shocking some smarks that didn't read the Observer at the time who he happened to chat about it somewhere).

[Ricky Jackson]

Yeah, I watched the Bob/Don 83 TDM recently, and coupled with the Tito/Savage No DQ, Gorilla's seeming ignorance of what type of match he is calling is really annoying.

[S.L.L.]

My reaction to Rod Trongaurd was always that he sounded like a more eloquent Neil Hamburger. That, and that he totally sucked.

[Matt D]

I swear at one point in the last day I heard him call a near fall as "1. 2. Et tu, Brute!" and I have no idea why. But it just slipped in subliminally until I really thought about it.

[JerryvonKramer]

Ventura's WCW run came up on Wrestling Observer Radio today regarding the heat between him and Jim Ross. Dave said that Jesse can't be told anything, thinks he's the smartest guy in the world, doesn't take criticism well, he was very good at that point in time at the ability to be entertaining while half assing it, shut down when Watts and Ross gave him pointers on how they wanted him to announce, and thought Jesse sucked by the time they sent him home because he didn't care anymore (shocking some smarks that didn't read the Observer at the time who he happened to chat about it somewhere).

 

If a guy can be THAT good while half-assing it, then he's the best announcer of all-time in any sports.

[Jingus]

Regarding Solie, Scott Hudson once told me something interesting. Apparently the backstage reputation on Gordon is that he's a lot better at calling canned matches in a studio than live matches at ringside. Solie supposedly always wanted to be prepared for what was coming, to know where the match was going so he could plan out his talking points ahead of time.

 

Maybe having to do the job by yourself is condusive to calling the action better, I don't know.

It is. By yourself, you have all the time in the world. There's no collaboration; you control the entire commentary all by yourself. It's harder to fill time without a partner, but it's infinitely easier to craft the psychology of a match into any shape you want. Just look at Joey Styles solo versus Joey Styles with any color commentator.

 

In fact, there's a guy who doesn't get enough props anymore. By himself, Joey was a master at getting over gimmicks and personality in an incredibly efficient way. He could talk for about ten seconds and make the audience completely understand the goals and mindset of any worker on the roster. He was incredibly efficient, using just a few well-chosen phrases to imbue large amounts of exposition and information (and also noteworthy is that he's one of the few announcers who is sometimes willing to just shut up for a minute and let silence reign during the action). Yeah, a lot of his psychology was pulled out of thin air or his ass or anything other than what's happening in the ring, but he had to cover up for a lot of illogical bullshit and blown spots in ECW. He's one of the better improvisers I've ever seen at covering up or explaining something on the spot.

 

Here's a fun example. At one point in that ECW/WWE rivalry, Joey and the Raw announcers were all calling a battle royal. Lawler or Cole or someone starts ragging on the ECW "athletes", and how they don't stand a chance against real superstars. Joey responds and is clearly about to go into one of his old prepared spiels, talking about Balls Mahoney's amateur wrestling background... but right then, Balls gets eliminated. Without missing a beat, Styles switches over to a story about Sandman beating up guards in prison, and uses it to illustrate why he's got plenty of experience in fighting in a closed environment where you've got a chaotic brawl with no room to maneuver like a battle royal. It was such a little thing, but so smoothly and seamlessly done that I've always remembered it.

 

Yeah, I watched the Bob/Don 83 TDM recently, and coupled with the Tito/Savage No DQ, Gorilla's seeming ignorance of what type of match he is calling is really annoying.

That is indeed one of Gorilla's biggest flaws. Sometimes he just wasn't paying any damn attention, and would stubbornly insist that a guy got disqualified long after Fink said it was a countout, or whatever.

[El-P]

In fact, there's a guy who doesn't get enough props anymore. By himself, Joey was a master at getting over gimmicks and personality in an incredibly efficient way. He could talk for about ten seconds and make the audience completely understand the goals and mindset of any worker on the roster. He was incredibly efficient, using just a few well-chosen phrases to imbue large amounts of exposition and information (and also noteworthy is that he's one of the few announcers who is sometimes willing to just shut up for a minute and let silence reign during the action). Yeah, a lot of his psychology was pulled out of thin air or his ass or anything other than what's happening in the ring, but he had to cover up for a lot of illogical bullshit and blown spots in ECW. He's one of the better improvisers I've ever seen at covering up or explaining something on the spot.

Agreed. In a recent shoot interview, Shane Douglas gives him tons of credit for working in really tough conditions, that don't compare at all with what WCW and WWF announcers were working with at the same time, and pulling it off despite all the bullshit. Joey was a big part of getting the ECW product over. I think he got exposed as soon as the first PPV, and his character became a bit annoying after 1998. He was at his best on his own before that.

[jdw]

Ventura's WCW run came up on Wrestling Observer Radio today regarding the heat between him and Jim Ross. Dave said that Jesse can't be told anything, thinks he's the smartest guy in the world, doesn't take criticism well, he was very good at that point in time at the ability to be entertaining while half assing it, shut down when Watts and Ross gave him pointers on how they wanted him to announce, and thought Jesse sucked by the time they sent him home because he didn't care anymore (shocking some smarks that didn't read the Observer at the time who he happened to chat about it somewhere).

 

If a guy can be THAT good while half-assing it, then he's the best announcer of all-time in any sports.

 

I'm guessing you haven't listened to a lot of sports over the years. Jesse isn't remotely close to the best.

 

John

[jdw]

Yeah, I watched the Bob/Don 83 TDM recently, and coupled with the Tito/Savage No DQ, Gorilla's seeming ignorance of what type of match he is calling is really annoying.

That is indeed one of Gorilla's biggest flaws. Sometimes he just wasn't paying any damn attention, and would stubbornly insist that a guy got disqualified long after Fink said it was a countout, or whatever.

 

Yeah, and like I pointed out above, he had easy outs to cop to being wrong. It actually connects with the fans listening, and even the storyline. I gave an example above:

 

"A good announcer would have pointed out that now that he thought about it, the ref was right to not award the match as no holds are barred, and while it could normally get Muraco DQ'd, it doesn't happen tonight. And weave into the storyline that it was Backlund who wanted this match, and it's the risk that he took."

 

That would come across well.

 

John

[Loss]

In fact, there's a guy who doesn't get enough props anymore. By himself, Joey was a master at getting over gimmicks and personality in an incredibly efficient way. He could talk for about ten seconds and make the audience completely understand the goals and mindset of any worker on the roster. He was incredibly efficient, using just a few well-chosen phrases to imbue large amounts of exposition and information (and also noteworthy is that he's one of the few announcers who is sometimes willing to just shut up for a minute and let silence reign during the action). Yeah, a lot of his psychology was pulled out of thin air or his ass or anything other than what's happening in the ring, but he had to cover up for a lot of illogical bullshit and blown spots in ECW. He's one of the better improvisers I've ever seen at covering up or explaining something on the spot.

Agreed. In a recent shoot interview, Shane Douglas gives him tons of credit for working in really tough conditions, that don't compare at all with what WCW and WWF announcers were working with at the same time, and pulling it off despite all the bullshit. Joey was a big part of getting the ECW product over. I think he got exposed as soon as the first PPV, and his character became a bit annoying after 1998. He was at his best on his own before that.

 

I was always under the impression that every line he had was fed to him by Paul Heyman.

[Jingus]

I've heard that before, but firstly: I don't know if it's true. By all accounts, Heyman was always running around backstage doing a million different things at once, so it would've been hard for him to constantly play Joey's ventriloquist. Away from Paul E, Styles did okay announcing in the WWE... at least whenever Coachman wasn't talking over him or Vince wasn't screaming in his headset. And even if he was fed the lines, he still deserves credit for speaking them in a compelling manner. Having good material to work from isn't the same thing as being good at fulfilling its potential. To etch a comparison: you could have some untalented backyarders go out to the ring and do a move-for-move cosplay of 6/9/95, but it probably wouldn't be any damn good. Even if they devoutly followed the script for the greatest match ever, it doesn't make them great wrestlers. Styles has had plenty of great calls (the first One Night Stand may be one of the best announcing jobs I've ever heard), and I don't think it matters to the finished product whether those lines were scripted for him. And like I said, he's been in plenty of live situations where he had to instantly invent an explanation to cover something up and he usually shined in those moments.