The Beginner's Guide To Lucha Libre

[FLIK]

Luchadores tend to struggle with one fall matches so I think any change in the number of falls would take some getting used

I think it's worked fine for AAA and some of the lucha indies. Many modern CMLL matches are practically 1 fall matches anyways. Instead of 2 min fall, 5 mins of replays & commercials, 2 min fall, 5 mins of replays & commercials, 10 min fall, i'd rather just have a 14 min 1 fall match with no interuptions.

 

As for the original topic

 

This is a very partial list of the best lucha stuff i've seen

 

AAA

 

8/28/1992 Angel Azteca, Solar I & Super Astro vs Blue Panther, El Cobarde & El Indómito

10/9/1992 Super Astro vs Blue Panther

11/6/1994 Benoit, Scorpio & Santana vs Estrada, La Parka & Blue Panther

11/6/1994 El Hijo Del Santo & Octagon vs Art Barr & Eddie Guerrero

6/6/2010 (Winner gets La Parka Name) L.A. Park vs La Parka

 

CMLL

 

8/11/1991 (NWA World Middle Weight Title) Atlantis © vs Blue Panther

4/3/1992 Atlantis vs La Fiera

7/3/1992 (Vacant CMLL World Middleweight Title) El Dandy vs Negro Casas

7/16/1993 Chris Jericho & Ultimo Dragon vs Negro Casas & El Dandy

12/6/1996 (Hair vs Hair vs Mask 3 Way) El Dandy vs Negro Casas vs El Hijo Del Santo

1/7/1997 (CMLL Minis Title) Damien El Guerrero © vs Cicloncito Ramirez

8/15/1999 Arkangel, Zumbido & Ultimo Guerrero vs Solar, Oriental & Mr. Niebla

9/28/2001 Juventud Guerrera Fuerza Guerrera Universo Dos Mil & Dr. Wagner Jr vs Villano 4 Black Tiger El Hijo Del Lizmark & Negro Casas

3/2/2012 (Hair vs Hair) Blue Panther vs Negro Casas

 

Also a mention for 2005 CMLL TV from around mid year on as watching that is what first got me into lucha in a big way beyond the ocasional match here and thear and whear I think I first "got" lucha period. It's anchored by 2 really great feuds in Perro Jr & Sr, Pierroth & co vs Cien Caras, Mascara Ano 2000, Universo 2000 which produced a lot of good brawls and Mistico with various partners (Atlantis, Wagner, Santo, Casas, Panther, etc...) vs various combos of Ultimo Guerrero, Bucanero, Averno, Mephisto, Olimpico, Tarzan Boy, etc... which produced a lot of good "workrate" action style matches.

 

Indy

 

11/01/2002 Shu El Guerrero & Negro Navarro vs Skyde & Solar

1/17/2009 Solar I, Super Astro & Ultraman vs Black Power, Negro Navarro & El Signo

1/17/2009 Scorpio Jr. & Shu el Guerrero vs Los Villano IV & Villano V

9/11/2011 (Hardcore Match) Sexy Lady vs Ludark Shaitan

9/17/2011 Psycho Circus vs Fake Doink the Clown, Giant Clown & Beast the Clown

10/15/2011 Nicho El Millonario vs Negro Navarro

1/15/2012 Blue Panther, Atlantis & Solar vs Ultimo Guerrero, Felino & Negro Navarro

2/25/2012 Hijo del Santo & Villano IV vs Angel Blanco Jr. & Hijo del Solitario

3/8/2012 Sexy Lady & Alan Extreme vs Ludark Shaitan & Golden Magic

 

And if we're counting Hamada's UWF in Japan

 

6/1/1990 (UWA Light Heavyweight Title) Gran Hamada © vs Perro Aguayo Sr

6/7/1990 (UWA Middleweight Title) Yoshinari Asai © vs Negro Casas

11/17/1990 Yoshihiro Asai & Kato Kung Lee vs Blue Panther & Black Power

11/17/1990 (UWA 6 Man Tag Titles) Los Brazos vs Gran Hamada Blackman & Kendo

[Loss]

I just wanted to bump this to say that I think OJ's greatest contribution to this thread - even more than match recommendations - has been in providing some explanation of the lucha libre mythology. Good work. That's the beginners guide I needed when I started diving in back in 2005.

[Exposer]

To be honest, there was never much of period for me after I started watching lucha where I had to "adjust to the style." I suppose I had to grasp the 2/3 falls and tag concepts but even those didn't adversely effect me. I'm not kidding when I say this. I convinced myself to watch lucha last summer after Dylan pimped it to me pretty hard. One of the first matches I watched was MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana from 1983. That was a fucking awesome match and there was never a transitional period of "Why did they do that?" Lucha mat work never caught me by surprise either except that it is fucking incredible. I guess I never really understood the difficulties in trying to understand lucha or any type of transition period.

[Big Rob]

The best match I have ever seen live was El Hijo del Santo vs Blue Panther, the first match they had against each other in Colchester, England back in 2004. I still have issues getting into much of the lucha libre that I watch, but this was breathtaking, and both men busted their arses for the crowd. That would definitely be a good place to start when trying to break in to lucha.

[Kronos]

Fantastic info in this thread, and I look forward to spending some time with the suggested matches.

[Kronos]

Here's a question I have:

 

A lot of times, the tag matches seem to start off slowly. The guys will take turns doing some exhibition matwork and maybe a few strikes. It's all very mellow and myturn-yourturn. Then as the match goes on, they kick up the intensity. I have been considering this "slow starting" to be a weakness of the match, when I come across it. I have seen it enough times now in 2011 and 2012 matches, though, that I wonder if it's just a convention? Guys like Terry and Panther simply get to take turns running through some transitions and spots with the younger guys, who get to show what they can do?

 

Is this just something I should get used to seeing?

[ohtani's jacket]

A lot of the maestro tags are worked like exhibition matches and a lot of the matwork is poor. In a sense it's a convention because that's how they've been laying the matches out for several years now, but that doesn't mean it's good. It is probably apparent to you by now when guys like Terry and Navarro are working a story and when they're doing a maestro exhibition. The only way you can really defend the your turn, my turn matwork is to look at it as some form of one-upmanship where they're daring each other to physically hurt one another. Kind of like a battle of machismo.

[Kronos]

A lot of the maestro tags are worked like exhibition matches and a lot of the matwork is poor. In a sense it's a convention because that's how they've been laying the matches out for several years now, but that doesn't mean it's good. It is probably apparent to you by now when guys like Terry and Navarro are working a story and when they're doing a maestro exhibition.

Hmm. So you're saying that Terry/Che was not a maestro exhibition? Hehe.

 

 

The only way you can really defend the your turn, my turn matwork is to look at it as some form of one-upmanship where they're daring each other to physically hurt one another. Kind of like a battle of machismo.

Glad to know it's not something I am imagining. I thought I might wanna get clear on this concept before I got too much deeper into the voting over at WKO.

 

"Let's start with a bit of chain wrestling -- especially a waistlock -- and then go to the mat. I'll try a few gentle submission holds. How about one keylock and then some form of anklelock or cloverleaf? Then we'll gently transition over to you doing the same thing? Don't worry if you're slow setting up the legs into your submission -- I'll wait for you and even help if you need. Then we'll stand and face off and either tag in our partners or actually start wrestling the match for real."

 

That's actually not too different that what the Indyriffic guys do in the US -- only they rush through their sequences so it looks "cool".

[ohtani's jacket]

Personally, I don't think Terry is as good a mat worker as he is a brawler. His selling is sublime and he can work holds all right, but his matwork against guys like Trauma II and just about anyone he's been paired against in a Navarro/Solar tag is consistently disappointing. Navarro tends to make the your turn, my turn matwork more compelling than Terry because of his personality, but the focus on Navarro v. Solar is often to the detriment of the rest of the match. Panther I think is overrated at this stage of his career and Casas was never a great mat worker, but I'm in the minority with these opinions.

[NintendoLogic]

Would it be possible to split the singles matches in OJ's primer into title matches and stipulation matches? They're two completely different styles.

 

Also, a question. Are there any notable lucha matches based around targeting a body part? I know the psychology is different in Mexico, but I figured I'd ask.

[ohtani's jacket]

This is off the top of my head. I might forget some and I can't be bothered looking up the particular title.

 

Title matches

 

Ray Mendoza vs. Tatsumi Fujinami, El Toreo, 8/13/78

Gran Cochisse vs. Satanico, 9/14/84

Angel Azteca vs. El Dandy, 6/1/90

Atlantis vs Blue Panther, 8/9/91

Los Infernales (MS-1, Satanico & Pirata Morgan) vs. Los Brazos, 11/22/91

El Dandy vs Negro Casas, 7/3/92

Mascarita Sagrada vs Espectrito, AAA 3/12/94

Espanto Jr. vs. El Hijo Del Santo, 5/14/92

Rey Misterio Jr. vs Psicosis, AAA 9/22/95

Cicloncito Ramirez vs Damiancito El Guerrero, 1/7/97

Negro Navarro vs. El Dandy, IWRG 11/18/01

Mistico vs. El Averno, CMLL 1/30/05

Zatura vs. Trauma II, 6/18/09

Virus vs. Guerrero Maya Jr, CMLL 6/7/11

 

Wager matches

 

MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana, 9/23/83

Sangre Chicana vs. Perro Aguayo, 2/28/86

Espanto Jr. vs. El Hijo Del Santo, 8/31/86

Trio Fantasia v. Thundercats, (Masks vs. Masks), 12/8/91

El Hijo Del Santo vs. Negro Casas, 9/19/97

Atlantis vs. Villano III, 3/17/00

Blue Panther vs. Villano V, 09/19/08

Negro Casas vs. Blue Panther, 3/2/12

 

I can think of examples of guys targeting a body part during a match but not as the focus of the match itself.

[Loss]

Atlantis/Emilio from 8/11/92 has Emilio targeting Atlantis' arm starting in the first fall, and it continues throughout the match, with Atlantis rallying support for a big comeback. In that case, I would say that is what the match is built around.

 

That match is not without its flaws, but the parts that are done well are done really, really well.

[JerryvonKramer]

As someone who has literally just been exposed to lucha for the first time properly TODAY. Here are some questions that would be great to have answered in this thread:

 

1. What are the major promotions? Is there an equivalent to a lucha WWF / NJPW and a lucha WCW / AJPW? What are the other important promotions? What are the major indies?

 

2. Who are the really big stars historically and now? Is there an equivalent of a Hogan or a Rock? Or even of a Flair or a Jumbo?

 

3. Who are the pimped workers both historically and now?

 

I think the answers to these questions would make the lucha that is cropping up on the yearbooks easier to navigate in terms of knowledge and expectations.

[Graham Crackers]

In general http://luchawiki.org/ is a great resource so if you see a name you can look it up there.

 

There are only two current "major promotions." CMLL (aka EMLL) is the oldest active wrestling promotion in the world. There is also AAA which started in 1992 and lead to a lot of CMLL talent jumping ship. There was also UWA (aka LLI) which closed down in 1995 but was the other major promotion in the 70s and 80s. It should be noted that these major promotions all lend their stars out to indies and local promoters.

 

http://luchawiki.org/index.php?title=CMLL

http://luchawiki.org/index.php?title=AAA

http://luchawiki.org/index.php?title=UWA

 

El Santo is the obvious biggest name in lucha history. I have read some great Steve Sims articles on lucha history but I don't think we have enough information on who the biggest historical draws were after Santo. More lucha history in this thread including some discussion on who was/is a draw: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=15975

 

Jerry, I think you're watching the 1990 yearbook, right? El Dandy was a big star then, is generally regarded as a great worker, and he has a great feud with Angel Azteca that year. The Rayo De Jalisco Jr vs Cien Caras mask vs mask match was also a record gate in Mexico City. Rayo and Cien Caras are huge charismatic stars and traditionally were not regarded as good workers. I don't think that's 100% fair because I love that match, I've actually grown to really like Cien Caras, and Rayo is definitely capable in big matches even if that isn't often.

[PeteF3]

I'm somewhat of a lucha novice myself but I've at least seen a little and followed some more. I think a quick Lucha Rules 101 would be helpful as I noticed JVK was taken by surprise by the 2 out of 3 falls stip in the '90 yearbook's first match:

 

- Most matches are 6-mans and these are invariably 2 out of 3 falls, captains' rules. To win a fall you either have to defeat the designated captain or both of his partners. Many falls end with all 3 guys being pinned at once or in rapid succession.

 

- Piledrivers are illegal and are sold big time. The martinete (tombstone) is also illegal and is an almost automatic stretcher job.

 

- If a wrestler leaves/is thrown out of the ring one of his partners can immediately take his place.

 

- Removing an opponent's mask is an automatic DQ. The low blow leading to a DQ is a very common finish, as is the rudo feigning getting low-blowed and getting his opponent disqualified.

 

- Submissions are common and EVERYBODY submits no matter how big of a star they are, at least for non-decisive falls--there's no stigma attached to it like there was for a long time in the U.S. Not a lot of "fighting" in the big submission finishers, either--once it's applied, more often than not the fall is quickly over.

 

- Mask vs. mask, mask vs. hair, or hair vs. hair matches are usually the biggest singles matches, and in terms of gates/drawing I think it's safe to say they're a bigger deal than title matches.

 

- Lucha mats are harder than elsewhere in the world, so you're going to see a lot of the rolling bumps that get luchadores to somewhat derisively be called "tumblers." It's definitely safer than taking flat back bumps but it does take some getting used to as a viewer.

[Bix]

Also:

 

- Each fall is referred to as a "Caida." Primera Caida, Segunda Caida, and if necessary, Tercera Caida.

 

- Modern AAA subverts this, but title matches are, traditionally, their own "style." A singles title match, regardless of the participants, will usually be very technical. Someone like Perro Aguayo in a title match will be much different from Perro Aguayo in other matches, especially hair & hair vs mask matches.

 

- Hair vs Hair, Mask vs Mask, & Mask vs Hair matches are known as "Luchas de Apuestas," or stakes matches. So if you see a Lucha fan talking about "Apuestas matches," he's talking about hair and mask matches in general.

 

- There are a lot of production quirks that may annoy you, like endless replays between falls and crowd shots out of nowhere.

[NintendoLogic]

Steve Sims had a column in the Observer for a while, and it covers a lot of the Lucha 101 type stuff.

 

http://z11.invisionfree.com/wrestling_ko/i...?showtopic=2331

[Eduardo]

As far as commentators go, Dr. Alfonso Morales is pretty great play-by-play guy, both in lucha libre and boxing. So smooth, great professional. Has such an authoritative voice, when I'm watching boxing with my friends, they all love him too. Arturo Rivera has a lot of schtick but overall it's not really my cup of tea. If Asian wrestlers are working, expect the word "Chino" (longtime Mexican slur that started as an insult for half-indian/half black and indians but eventually became a slur for any Asian). Mexican culture has a weird attitude towards Asians, and I've heard Rivera say uncomfortable stuff like "how can this guy see with those eyes". I haven't put too much thought about Leobardo Magadan. I think tomk has put over Javier Llanes before in his writings, he is really great too.

 

Back in the day, sometimes going to the top rope in a title match was put over as a huge deal. Wrestlers would sometimes turn to the fans, large portions of fans would usually urge the wrestler not to take such a huge risk. It was put over as really high risk. Good example would be Panther vs Astro, where Panther ignores the fans and goes up, crashes. Another good example is Casas vs Dragon, where Casas either legitimately slips or takes the best looking worked slip I've ever seen.

[NintendoLogic]

So I've gone on one of my periodic lucha kicks. Rather than try to wrap my head around the title matches, I've decided to focus on lucha brawls, which I figured would be more up my alley. MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana remains the gold standard, but I also found the following matches worthy of note:

 

Sangre Chicana vs. Perro Aguayo (2/28/86)-Based on what I've seen of him, I think Sangre Chicana might be the greatest brawler I've ever seen. He's certainly the greatest tecnico brawler. His left hook could be the greatest punch of all time. And his selling, both of immediate impact and of exhaustion and cumulative damage, is some of the best I've seen.

 

El Dandy vs. Pirata Morgan (9/23/88)-One of the all-time great rudo performances from Morgan. I lost count of how many times he had Dandy pinned and then picked him up to inflict more damage. The first time he does it, you think he's kind of a jerk. By the fourth or fifth time, you're practically begging Dandy to come back and kick his ass. Also, Dandy busts out the greatest no-hands plancha of all time.

 

Santo/Espanto could be up there as well, but it isn't on Youtube anymore.

[jpchicago23]

What would be some recommendations for some great lucha brawls? I've seen the MS-1 Chicana match and loved. From what I've read and seen clips of I like Pirata Morgan and Jerry Estrada as well

[Loss]

My favorite brawls:

 

El Dandy vs El Satanico (EMLL 12/14/90)

Konnan, Perro Aguayo & Rayo de Jalisco Jr. vs Cien Caras, Mascara Ano 2000 & Sangre Chicana (CMLL 03/01/92)

Satanico vs Pirata Morgan (AAA 11/26/93)

El Hijo del Santo, Scorpio Jr & Bestia Salvaje vs Negro Casas, El Dandy & Hector Garza (CMLL 11/22/96)

El Hijo del Santo, Scorpio Jr & Bestia Salvaje vs Negro Casas, El Dandy & Hector Garza (CMLL 11/29/96)

[soup23]

I think Dandy vs. Satanico is a great stand alone match but enriched by watching that feud develop.

 

Going through the Crockett matches and I was watching Flair vs. Windham from Worldwide and had a sense that it was a brawl disguised as an NWA championship wrestling match. I get the feeling that Dandy vs. Satanico is the opposite as it is a stakes brawl with many aspects that include brawling, but also a beautiful wrestling match with traditional elements.

[Dylan Waco]

Actually on of my all time favorite Lucha brawls was from last year

 

My comments copied from WKO

 

Angel Blanco Jr./El Hijo del Solitario v. El Hijo Del Santo/Villano IV TXT 2/25 YES

 

Fucking five thousand times YES. I will wait for the pro-shot to be sure, but right now I have this ahead of Casas v. Panther fairly easily. That is not a knock on Casas v. Panther either, this match is just fucking awesome. Totally wild, escalating brawl, with all four guys juicing, some of the nastiest punches ever, some crazy spots and a great finish.

 

Villano IV was just insanely great here hitting two wild topes where he splatted on the floor, eating some sick chairshots, selling gut kicks and punches like he was being crippled with pancreatitis, showing awesome fire and his own brand of stiffness during the face come back, clinging onto dudes for single legs when he had nothing left to give, et. On top of this the visual of his bloody head was insane as it looks like Abdullah the Butcher after taking shrapnel from a clusterbomb.

 

The rudos were really tremendous asskickers here, stalking around like total pricks and throwing some savage shots. Blanco has an awesome standoff exchange with Villano IV both during the match and in the tremendous post match brawl that are up there with my favorite moments in wrestling in the last ten years. Solitaro has been a great foil for Santo over the last couple of years and really was tremendous, coming off as a guy livid at the existence of Santo in particular. At one point he crushes him with a punch to the chest that Santo sells like Solitaro is Ox Baker and he is a desperate Fritz Von Erich trying to get more cash flow to pay off his kids coke debts. Later he takes an awesome bump off of a revenge chairshot and his timing on that finishing spot was perfect.

 

Speaking of which Santo was fucking Santo. He is the real deal. He can take punishment, bleed buckets, hit his highspots, sell his ass off, make his comebacks, et and it never stops being exciting. His dives looked great, he had the aforementioned Fred Sanford sell job, he was just right at playing the victim but without relinquishing the nobility of his name and act. And man that finish. What a champ to take that chairshot and splat after that much blood loss and that crazy a match. Getting stretched pretty tightly for the fall was a nice sacrifice as well.

 

Post-match brawl with blood soaked guys competing to get hepatitis by smacking each others heads around was also tremendous.

 

Good luck topping this 2012

 

Tons of good IWRG stuff has been sadly taken down by Black Terry Jr. which is a shame, but this should still be easy to find from 2010 AAA. Arguably the best match in promotions history and very likely the best singles match of that year (at minimum)

 

Again comments from WKO

 

L.A. Park v. Mesias AAA 12/5

 

Yea LA Park was good as fuck in that match. He was a great base for Mesias, took some shockingly sick bumps (the sliding face plant on the floor especially), and just generally seemed committed to taking every bit of offense like it was a shotgun blast. The slow motion on that Mesias tope made the forearm shot look really brutal. I also loved his rise from the dead spot where he comes back into the ring and just plants his legs into Mesias legs to pull him into a submission. Match probably would have been just as good with slightly less stuff in the stretch run, but it was sort of reminiscent of Togo v. Ken Kid in the sense that it was a lengthy match carried by a veteran prick heel and even the extraneous bullshit going on around him was not going to stop him from having a great match.

[ohtani's jacket]

What would be some recommendations for some great lucha brawls? I've seen the MS-1 Chicana match and loved. From what I've read and seen clips of I like Pirata Morgan and Jerry Estrada as well

Check out:

 

Sangre Chicana vs. Perro Aguayo, 2/28/86

Espanto Jr. vs. El Hijo Del Santo, 8/31/86

Trio Fantasia v. Thundercats, (Masks vs. Masks), 12/8/91

 

Pirata Morgan vs. Dandy, El Faraon and Masakre are worth watching. Satanico vs. Pirata Morgan is a thing of beauty. Check out Santo vs. Parka if you like masks turning crimson.

[NintendoLogic]

Personally, I don't really care for brawls that have too much wrestling. I like my brawling straight with no chaser. Your mileage may vary on that front.

 

As for matches, I'd recommend El Hijo del Santo vs. Brazo de Oro from 1991. It's my second-favorite lucha brawl.