Ring of Honor Wrestling

[Mad Dog]

It's funny how Davey went from (in certain circles) being talked about as one of the best in the world a few years ago to pretty much being totally off the radar now.

 

I think being shuffled off to TNA did him in.

 

I honestly never liked him and said when he was starting out that he was everything wrong with indy wrestling. I think my decreased interest in RoH was directly linked to his rise up the card and the promotion was suddenly interesting again when he was gone.

[sek69]

I'm wondering how much say ROH has in their arrangement with New Japan and how that affects opinions on their booking. Dave stated Adam Cole and Adam Page being in the Bullet Club were NJ calls, and it seems ROH guys seldom go over in interpromotional matches unless it's someone like Gedo doing the job. ROH's big shows for the last year or so have basically been promoted as "Come see the stars of New Japan (and some guys from ROH too if you want)" and it hasn't really helped matters when it comes to making new stars.

[Mad Dog]

Yeah, I'm starting to feel like the New Japan deal has outlived it's usefulness.

[Timbo Slice]

There are myriad problems with ROH's current business model, and they are now in a really troubling situation in that they're completely subservient to NJPW talent on their own shows and can only really push guys as clingers on to something that is beginning to run its course in the Bullet Club. There isn't a single ROH talent seen on the level of NJPW talent, and while people point to the Fish win over Ishii, Ishii never even defended the belt before that to help put the belt over.

 

I think Delirious doesn't realize that NJPW is basically using them to test the waters of a possible US expansion (Grimmas brought the theory up to me and I totally agree), because it's obvious that crowds are there more to see NJPW talent than ROH talent, and that the over acts in the company are mainly over because of their Japan exposure (including Cheeseburger, who somehow has transcended any ROH booking into being perhaps the most over talent in the company). Plus, ROH is now entrenched with them and it's more symbiotic than ever, so going forward, with guys like Cole getting pushes basically to keep him from jumping to NXT, they're continuously booking themselves into a corner. They've had Kamaitachi, who's developed a rep and is respected even by fans who don't like lucha that much, and he's been a total nonfactor. Not to mention the refusal to push guys like Castle, Dijak and Cheeseburger while they're hot.

 

There are booking cycles, and it's only been a year since their TV was absolutely on fire, but this feels like the beginning of quite a down cycle for ROH, especially with the Evolve/NXT relationship heating up and their ability to tell a coherent story in a way ROH just can't right now. They're isolating themselves in favor of a relationship with a company that looks down on them while they think they're on somewhat equal footing. That's not a good look for them.

[Mad Dog]

Their misuse of Dalton Castle just blows me away. He should have been beating Strong or Lethal to get the TV Title at the end of last year not spinning his wheels doing nothing.

[soup23]

There are myriad problems with ROH's current business model, and they are now in a really troubling situation in that they're completely subservient to NJPW talent on their own shows and can only really push guys as clingers on to something that is beginning to run its course in the Bullet Club. There isn't a single ROH talent seen on the level of NJPW talent, and while people point to the Fish win over Ishii, Ishii never even defended the belt before that to help put the belt over.

 

I think Delirious doesn't realize that NJPW is basically using them to test the waters of a possible US expansion (Grimmas brought the theory up to me and I totally agree), because it's obvious that crowds are there more to see NJPW talent than ROH talent, and that the over acts in the company are mainly over because of their Japan exposure (including Cheeseburger, who somehow has transcended any ROH booking into being perhaps the most over talent in the company). Plus, ROH is now entrenched with them and it's more symbiotic than ever, so going forward, with guys like Cole getting pushes basically to keep him from jumping to NXT, they're continuously booking themselves into a corner. They've had Kamaitachi, who's developed a rep and is respected even by fans who don't like lucha that much, and he's been a total nonfactor. Not to mention the refusal to push guys like Castle, Dijak and Cheeseburger while they're hot.

 

There are booking cycles, and it's only been a year since their TV was absolutely on fire, but this feels like the beginning of quite a down cycle for ROH, especially with the Evolve/NXT relationship heating up and their ability to tell a coherent story in a way ROH just can't right now. They're isolating themselves in favor of a relationship with a company that looks down on them while they think they're on somewhat equal footing. That's not a good look for them.

 

 

I disagree with the statements regarding Kamaitachi, Castle, Dijak and Cheeseburger.

 

Kamaitachi has been with the promotion all of two weeks. While he had a fabulous series with Dragon Lee, ROH does have guys they will already see in that junior role such as ACH and LIo Rush. If he sticks around and pulls a Watanabe run, then yes it is open to critique, but it feels premature now. Also, I haven't seen/heard of Kamaitachi been booked elsewhere so I do find it odd that ROH is being criticized for misusing him as a person that has a ton of buzz when no one else has used him period.

 

Castle took a while to get going but he is solidly presented now as one of the 7-8 biggest people in the company. I don't think that is anything to sneeze at and actually ROH correcting itself in not realizing the potential he had when they first brought him in. The TV title match vs. Fish should be very good.

 

I am not going to pretend I have been watching Dijak work in Beyond, but I have seen all of ROH this year with the exception of the San Antonio and Rhode Island house shows. Dijak is in a weird angle with Nana, but he hasn't looked like the most polished performed either. I compare it to Moose in 2014. In the SCOH Night 2 match with Will Ferrera, he botched and was out of position multiple times. I agree the stuff with Nana could better present his personality, but as far as his current standing on the overall roster, that feels fine.

 

Cheeseburger has gotten tv title shots in competitive matches, teamed with his idol to defeat the now tag team champions (awful booking having Addiction win btw), and been used to help advance the world title angle. That feels like good placement to me for someone that will always be a niche performer to a degree.

 

I'm weary about coming off as an ROH apologist and there is certain problems that are there, but I was relieved to see the Toronto results and do think ROH was presented at least on paper as being equal to NJ in most regards with sharing wins.

 

I also want to compare to EVOLVE as that is what I think most people that follow independents would point to as the best promotion currently going.

 

Here are the current EVOLVE booking issues I have:

 

1. Their championship is probably the third most important thing going on. I think this is being corrected on the next set of shows so it isn't a huge issue but Thatcher was someone that had a ton of buzz with the Supershow match vs. Hero and his rise to the title. I hope once he does drop the strap, they can get him back on track.

2. Zack Sabre Jr. did a "best in the world" series but has now gone 3-4 on that journey and lost to three different guys. I think Hero having his number is great storytelling but I didn't like Scrull beating him at all.

3. The TNA/EVOLVE Stuff just doesn't excite me. I am willing to give EC3 a chance in these upcoming shows but he was not someone that made me say "wow" when he debuted. I see this as a lot more lateral to what ROH is doing with Bullet Club than what most people do, but I still haven't heard a great argument as to why the EVOLVE stuff is fresher.

4. Catchpoint having Stokley around. Catchpoint is in the odd position of having 5 of the legit best 15 wrestlers in the world within one stable. More than that, they excel against each other and can present a beautiful contrast to most inter stable feuds in having uber competitive matches with each other but staying together as a unit. I thought there was potential for tons of interesting things down the future with them running the belt for a while and having matches within their grouping with only random challengers from the likes of Hero and Sabre who can break through the gatekeeper system set up below the champion to challenge. Instead, it looks like Stokley has TJP in his dream team and he is going after Riddle as well. Splintering those two away from Catch Point really loses the dynamic for me in a lot of ways. This is honestly the biggest issue overall I have as Catch Point has produced so many matches within my current MOTY list but the eavesdropping in on the dojo quality to them is a reason why.

5. This one is purely subjective and I can see arguments for the contrast but I would rather see Addiction and MCMG compared to the Bravados and Team Treemendous. I know the former are fossils but they have went out in the ROH shows I have watched and at least had competent performances. In certain times like Daniels at SCOH Night 1, they had a great one. The Bravados and Treemendous consistently make the EVOLVE shows drag a bit for me. They aren't horrible, but I still haven't thought of an EVOLVE show as good as SCOH Night 1 or the PHilly Conquest show for this year based on that middle ground. Anthony Nese can be thrown in here too.

[Parties]

Again the whole Cabana thing is the company's fault. If they didn't have him under contract they deserve what they get. The angle would have had more impact if it was Hero in the spot. They could've ran the angle with Jimmy Rave or Spanky and had a better match than Cabana.

 

I presume the idea was that he would get some kind of Punk-at-MITB reaction in Chicago, which did not seem to be the case. The hometown kid makes good story wasn't effectively told IIRC.

[soup23]

 

Again the whole Cabana thing is the company's fault. If they didn't have him under contract they deserve what they get. The angle would have had more impact if it was Hero in the spot. They could've ran the angle with Jimmy Rave or Spanky and had a better match than Cabana.

 

I presume the idea was that he would get some kind of Punk-at-MITB reaction in Chicago, which did not seem to be the case. The hometown kid makes good story wasn't effectively told IIRC.

 

 

They should have put the return promo more readily available to watch and the Honor Rising tv leading up to Global Wars put Cabana on the backburner until the final week before the PPV. I did think the actual heat for Cabana was good when he came out for the match.

[Grimmas]

Being live at the ROH tapings I have to say everything was solid, but nothing got me excited for anything going forward. Just a bunch of solid matches with one really good one (Kushida vs O'Reilly).

[bradhindsight]

Grimmas - how was the reaction for Kamaitachi in Toronto?

[Grimmas]

Grimmas - how was the reaction for Kamaitachi in Toronto?

Besides me and Musgrave going crazy almost nobody knew who he was or cared. He was the least focused on of the four in the match too and didn't factor into anything. His one dive did get a reaction though.

[Dylan Waco]

 

There are myriad problems with ROH's current business model, and they are now in a really troubling situation in that they're completely subservient to NJPW talent on their own shows and can only really push guys as clingers on to something that is beginning to run its course in the Bullet Club. There isn't a single ROH talent seen on the level of NJPW talent, and while people point to the Fish win over Ishii, Ishii never even defended the belt before that to help put the belt over.

 

I think Delirious doesn't realize that NJPW is basically using them to test the waters of a possible US expansion (Grimmas brought the theory up to me and I totally agree), because it's obvious that crowds are there more to see NJPW talent than ROH talent, and that the over acts in the company are mainly over because of their Japan exposure (including Cheeseburger, who somehow has transcended any ROH booking into being perhaps the most over talent in the company). Plus, ROH is now entrenched with them and it's more symbiotic than ever, so going forward, with guys like Cole getting pushes basically to keep him from jumping to NXT, they're continuously booking themselves into a corner. They've had Kamaitachi, who's developed a rep and is respected even by fans who don't like lucha that much, and he's been a total nonfactor. Not to mention the refusal to push guys like Castle, Dijak and Cheeseburger while they're hot.

 

There are booking cycles, and it's only been a year since their TV was absolutely on fire, but this feels like the beginning of quite a down cycle for ROH, especially with the Evolve/NXT relationship heating up and their ability to tell a coherent story in a way ROH just can't right now. They're isolating themselves in favor of a relationship with a company that looks down on them while they think they're on somewhat equal footing. That's not a good look for them.

 

 

I disagree with the statements regarding Kamaitachi, Castle, Dijak and Cheeseburger.

 

Kamaitachi has been with the promotion all of two weeks. While he had a fabulous series with Dragon Lee, ROH does have guys they will already see in that junior role such as ACH and LIo Rush. If he sticks around and pulls a Watanabe run, then yes it is open to critique, but it feels premature now. Also, I haven't seen/heard of Kamaitachi been booked elsewhere so I do find it odd that ROH is being criticized for misusing him as a person that has a ton of buzz when no one else has used him period.

 

Castle took a while to get going but he is solidly presented now as one of the 7-8 biggest people in the company. I don't think that is anything to sneeze at and actually ROH correcting itself in not realizing the potential he had when they first brought him in. The TV title match vs. Fish should be very good.

 

I am not going to pretend I have been watching Dijak work in Beyond, but I have seen all of ROH this year with the exception of the San Antonio and Rhode Island house shows. Dijak is in a weird angle with Nana, but he hasn't looked like the most polished performed either. I compare it to Moose in 2014. In the SCOH Night 2 match with Will Ferrera, he botched and was out of position multiple times. I agree the stuff with Nana could better present his personality, but as far as his current standing on the overall roster, that feels fine.

 

Cheeseburger has gotten tv title shots in competitive matches, teamed with his idol to defeat the now tag team champions (awful booking having Addiction win btw), and been used to help advance the world title angle. That feels like good placement to me for someone that will always be a niche performer to a degree.

 

I'm weary about coming off as an ROH apologist and there is certain problems that are there, but I was relieved to see the Toronto results and do think ROH was presented at least on paper as being equal to NJ in most regards with sharing wins.

 

I also want to compare to EVOLVE as that is what I think most people that follow independents would point to as the best promotion currently going.

 

Here are the current EVOLVE booking issues I have:

 

1. Their championship is probably the third most important thing going on. I think this is being corrected on the next set of shows so it isn't a huge issue but Thatcher was someone that had a ton of buzz with the Supershow match vs. Hero and his rise to the title. I hope once he does drop the strap, they can get him back on track.

2. Zack Sabre Jr. did a "best in the world" series but has now gone 3-4 on that journey and lost to three different guys. I think Hero having his number is great storytelling but I didn't like Scrull beating him at all.

3. The TNA/EVOLVE Stuff just doesn't excite me. I am willing to give EC3 a chance in these upcoming shows but he was not someone that made me say "wow" when he debuted. I see this as a lot more lateral to what ROH is doing with Bullet Club than what most people do, but I still haven't heard a great argument as to why the EVOLVE stuff is fresher.

4. Catchpoint having Stokley around. Catchpoint is in the odd position of having 5 of the legit best 15 wrestlers in the world within one stable. More than that, they excel against each other and can present a beautiful contrast to most inter stable feuds in having uber competitive matches with each other but staying together as a unit. I thought there was potential for tons of interesting things down the future with them running the belt for a while and having matches within their grouping with only random challengers from the likes of Hero and Sabre who can break through the gatekeeper system set up below the champion to challenge. Instead, it looks like Stokley has TJP in his dream team and he is going after Riddle as well. Splintering those two away from Catch Point really loses the dynamic for me in a lot of ways. This is honestly the biggest issue overall I have as Catch Point has produced so many matches within my current MOTY list but the eavesdropping in on the dojo quality to them is a reason why.

5. This one is purely subjective and I can see arguments for the contrast but I would rather see Addiction and MCMG compared to the Bravados and Team Treemendous. I know the former are fossils but they have went out in the ROH shows I have watched and at least had competent performances. In certain times like Daniels at SCOH Night 1, they had a great one. The Bravados and Treemendous consistently make the EVOLVE shows drag a bit for me. They aren't horrible, but I still haven't thought of an EVOLVE show as good as SCOH Night 1 or the PHilly Conquest show for this year based on that middle ground. Anthony Nese can be thrown in here too.

 

 

I think if you look at the cases of guys like Castle or Dijak or Moose or whoever in isolation you can find justifiable reasons for why ROH might have misfired, intentionally didn't fire, pulled back, et. The problem is when you pull back and look at the whole. The reality is that there is a pattern with ROH of guys getting hot to one degree or another and the company cooling them off to the point where they barely matter at all. They are every bit as bad as the WWE at this, and in many respects worse because the WWE is in a position where they can coast on status, legends, and multiple revenue streams if need be. ROH needs new stars and fresh stuff at the top of the card and resist both things so much that I have to believe it's intentional.

 

This is why when I really think about it the Evolve comparison falls so flat to me. Yes I agree with you about some things you list and disagree about others (most notably I think the Bravados are WAY better than The Addiction). But Evolve has guys like Tracy Williams and Matt Riddle who feel like they have made this year alone. The booking of Yehi to lose every match has been frustrating as hell, but at the very least it's been consistent and he has gained more from losing competitive matches than anyone I can think of in ROH this year off the top of my head. That's a disgrace.

 

The most puzzling thing in your post was that you were relieved by the Toronto results. Maybe you weren't a fan of the Dearborn ones, but I look at those two shows together, and from my perspective the results are nightmarish on numerous fronts, and illustrate everything that is wrong with the company. Adam Page as a heel in the Bullet Club because NJPW wants it. The Addiction winning the tag belts the night after they lost clean to the Cheeseburger and Liger and the night after War Machine finally got their big wins other the Briscoes. Lio Rush losing in five minutes to ACH. The Dijak stuff with Lethal seemingly ending on t.v. and some reports indicating Dijak worked as the heel. It's just one big pile of trash.

 

I loved Super Card of Honor Night 1 and really wanted to believe that it would rekindle my interest in ROH. But it's just not possible. They are the worst booked promotion on Earth.

[bradhindsight]

What's the story with the tag switch after War Machine already worked that night against Okada and Gedo? Injury? Upcoming dates an issue? That one is baffling after all the build for that passing the torch match. There has to be a story there.

[soup23]

 

 

There are myriad problems with ROH's current business model, and they are now in a really troubling situation in that they're completely subservient to NJPW talent on their own shows and can only really push guys as clingers on to something that is beginning to run its course in the Bullet Club. There isn't a single ROH talent seen on the level of NJPW talent, and while people point to the Fish win over Ishii, Ishii never even defended the belt before that to help put the belt over.

 

I think Delirious doesn't realize that NJPW is basically using them to test the waters of a possible US expansion (Grimmas brought the theory up to me and I totally agree), because it's obvious that crowds are there more to see NJPW talent than ROH talent, and that the over acts in the company are mainly over because of their Japan exposure (including Cheeseburger, who somehow has transcended any ROH booking into being perhaps the most over talent in the company). Plus, ROH is now entrenched with them and it's more symbiotic than ever, so going forward, with guys like Cole getting pushes basically to keep him from jumping to NXT, they're continuously booking themselves into a corner. They've had Kamaitachi, who's developed a rep and is respected even by fans who don't like lucha that much, and he's been a total nonfactor. Not to mention the refusal to push guys like Castle, Dijak and Cheeseburger while they're hot.

 

There are booking cycles, and it's only been a year since their TV was absolutely on fire, but this feels like the beginning of quite a down cycle for ROH, especially with the Evolve/NXT relationship heating up and their ability to tell a coherent story in a way ROH just can't right now. They're isolating themselves in favor of a relationship with a company that looks down on them while they think they're on somewhat equal footing. That's not a good look for them.

 

 

I disagree with the statements regarding Kamaitachi, Castle, Dijak and Cheeseburger.

 

Kamaitachi has been with the promotion all of two weeks. While he had a fabulous series with Dragon Lee, ROH does have guys they will already see in that junior role such as ACH and LIo Rush. If he sticks around and pulls a Watanabe run, then yes it is open to critique, but it feels premature now. Also, I haven't seen/heard of Kamaitachi been booked elsewhere so I do find it odd that ROH is being criticized for misusing him as a person that has a ton of buzz when no one else has used him period.

 

Castle took a while to get going but he is solidly presented now as one of the 7-8 biggest people in the company. I don't think that is anything to sneeze at and actually ROH correcting itself in not realizing the potential he had when they first brought him in. The TV title match vs. Fish should be very good.

 

I am not going to pretend I have been watching Dijak work in Beyond, but I have seen all of ROH this year with the exception of the San Antonio and Rhode Island house shows. Dijak is in a weird angle with Nana, but he hasn't looked like the most polished performed either. I compare it to Moose in 2014. In the SCOH Night 2 match with Will Ferrera, he botched and was out of position multiple times. I agree the stuff with Nana could better present his personality, but as far as his current standing on the overall roster, that feels fine.

 

Cheeseburger has gotten tv title shots in competitive matches, teamed with his idol to defeat the now tag team champions (awful booking having Addiction win btw), and been used to help advance the world title angle. That feels like good placement to me for someone that will always be a niche performer to a degree.

 

I'm weary about coming off as an ROH apologist and there is certain problems that are there, but I was relieved to see the Toronto results and do think ROH was presented at least on paper as being equal to NJ in most regards with sharing wins.

 

I also want to compare to EVOLVE as that is what I think most people that follow independents would point to as the best promotion currently going.

 

Here are the current EVOLVE booking issues I have:

 

1. Their championship is probably the third most important thing going on. I think this is being corrected on the next set of shows so it isn't a huge issue but Thatcher was someone that had a ton of buzz with the Supershow match vs. Hero and his rise to the title. I hope once he does drop the strap, they can get him back on track.

2. Zack Sabre Jr. did a "best in the world" series but has now gone 3-4 on that journey and lost to three different guys. I think Hero having his number is great storytelling but I didn't like Scrull beating him at all.

3. The TNA/EVOLVE Stuff just doesn't excite me. I am willing to give EC3 a chance in these upcoming shows but he was not someone that made me say "wow" when he debuted. I see this as a lot more lateral to what ROH is doing with Bullet Club than what most people do, but I still haven't heard a great argument as to why the EVOLVE stuff is fresher.

4. Catchpoint having Stokley around. Catchpoint is in the odd position of having 5 of the legit best 15 wrestlers in the world within one stable. More than that, they excel against each other and can present a beautiful contrast to most inter stable feuds in having uber competitive matches with each other but staying together as a unit. I thought there was potential for tons of interesting things down the future with them running the belt for a while and having matches within their grouping with only random challengers from the likes of Hero and Sabre who can break through the gatekeeper system set up below the champion to challenge. Instead, it looks like Stokley has TJP in his dream team and he is going after Riddle as well. Splintering those two away from Catch Point really loses the dynamic for me in a lot of ways. This is honestly the biggest issue overall I have as Catch Point has produced so many matches within my current MOTY list but the eavesdropping in on the dojo quality to them is a reason why.

5. This one is purely subjective and I can see arguments for the contrast but I would rather see Addiction and MCMG compared to the Bravados and Team Treemendous. I know the former are fossils but they have went out in the ROH shows I have watched and at least had competent performances. In certain times like Daniels at SCOH Night 1, they had a great one. The Bravados and Treemendous consistently make the EVOLVE shows drag a bit for me. They aren't horrible, but I still haven't thought of an EVOLVE show as good as SCOH Night 1 or the PHilly Conquest show for this year based on that middle ground. Anthony Nese can be thrown in here too.

 

 

I think if you look at the cases of guys like Castle or Dijak or Moose or whoever in isolation you can find justifiable reasons for why ROH might have misfired, intentionally didn't fire, pulled back, et. The problem is when you pull back and look at the whole. The reality is that there is a pattern with ROH of guys getting hot to one degree or another and the company cooling them off to the point where they barely matter at all. They are every bit as bad as the WWE at this, and in many respects worse because the WWE is in a position where they can coast on status, legends, and multiple revenue streams if need be. ROH needs new stars and fresh stuff at the top of the card and resist both things so much that I have to believe it's intentional.

 

This is why when I really think about it the Evolve comparison falls so flat to me. Yes I agree with you about some things you list and disagree about others (most notably I think the Bravados are WAY better than The Addiction). But Evolve has guys like Tracy Williams and Matt Riddle who feel like they have made this year alone. The booking of Yehi to lose every match has been frustrating as hell, but at the very least it's been consistent and he has gained more from losing competitive matches than anyone I can think of in ROH this year off the top of my head. That's a disgrace.

 

The most puzzling thing in your post was that you were relieved by the Toronto results. Maybe you weren't a fan of the Dearborn ones, but I look at those two shows together, and from my perspective the results are nightmarish on numerous fronts, and illustrate everything that is wrong with the company. Adam Page as a heel in the Bullet Club because NJPW wants it. The Addiction winning the tag belts the night after they lost clean to the Cheeseburger and Liger and the night after War Machine finally got their big wins other the Briscoes. Lio Rush losing in five minutes to ACH. The Dijak stuff with Lethal seemingly ending on t.v. and some reports indicating Dijak worked as the heel. It's just one big pile of trash.

 

I loved Super Card of Honor Night 1 and really wanted to believe that it would rekindle my interest in ROH. But it's just not possible. They are the worst booked promotion on Earth.

 

 

I think as far as the unwillingness to pull the trigger on the right guy as the champion of the promotion, ROH has historically done a bad job at this. Yet, Lethal was someone they got behind and given a major push too. He has ran roughshod over the promotion and now they do have an opportunity where when he does drop the strap (and this should for sure happen before the end of the year), it can seem like a big deal especially if someone like O Reilly or Moose is the one to do it.

 

In comparison to EVOLVE, CatchPoint has been great and it is my #1 favorite thing in wrestling, but how much has booking factored into that? I am not more invested with Yehi because he has lost nearly every match. Riddle still has a great stigma to him in spite of the booking vs. Thatcher.

 

Deerborn's results were really puzzling. Addiction winning the tag titles was one of the worst decisions in recent memory. They are a team to help build people, not to lead the division at this point.I also didn't like Moose losing at all. New York has plenty of matchups that if they go NJ way, an over-reliance on them will be more in the forefront.

 

I guess my overall crux with the entire debate is the attitude to jump on something in order to destroy another. This feels more feverish in the piling on of ROH than any promotion I can remember in recent time. There is a swirling of inside sources talking about all the unrest going on, how many times the main event has been changed, etc. In the mean time, the analysis that I enjoy and look forward to are lost such as how good was the Rhode Island show? I wouldn't know because I haven't seen any reviews of it. That show was also posted on VOD less than a week after ROH when you heard such clamoring about how much the buzz was lost that they didn't get their shows out fast enough. This is a problem they have worked on fixing, and yet it hasn't resulted in any change. I'm very uninterested in promotions as a whole and ranking them because I think the ideal of a best or perfect promotion hasn't really existed for any substantial time in history. I am much more invested in the wrestlers themselves and the matches they perform. That is where despite the spotty booking, I have watched almost every 2016 ROH release and do think they stack up in ring with something like EVOLVE or AAW.

[soup23]

Well, I type all that and go on twitter to see the revised lineup for Saturday that is shitty and looks really slanted toward NJ:

 

*MAIN EVENT**

BULLET CLUB vs NEW JAPAN vs RING OF HONOR

Bullet Club (Adam Cole & Matt Jackson) vs “Rainmaker” Kazuchika Okada & Tomohiro Ishii vs ROH World Champion Jay Lethal & Roderick Strong

NON TITLE

IWGP Heavyweight Champion Tetsuya Naito vs ACH

Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Reborn Matt Sydal

ROH WORLD TAG TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP RE-MATCH

Addiction vs War Machine

Cedric Alexander vs Donovan Dijak w/ Prince Nana

Jushin “Thunder” Liger & the Briscoes vs Guerrillas of Destiny & “Hangman” Adam Page

CHOAS (Beretta & Gedo) w/ Rocky Romero vs Motor City Machine Guns

NON TITLE

IWGP Junior Heavyweight Champion KUSHIDA vs “Pro Wrestling’s Last Real Man” Silas Young

FOUR CORNER SURVIVAL

Michael Elgin vs Moose w/ Stokely Hathaway vs Dalton Caslte w/ the Boys vs Lio Rush

reDRagon vs All Night Express

[Grimmas]

ROH could have the greatest booking ever and it won't matter, because their pricing and distribution model is insane.

 

No matter how great a ppv is, it is not worth a month of WWE Network, Progress and two live EVOLVE shows. It's just not and can't be.

VOD's should be out within a day. Everything should be live, why not? Is it that much more expensive to have it live then to tape it and put it out on VOD? If that's true, at least it needs to come out quicker.

[WingedEagle]

ROH could have the greatest booking ever and it won't matter, because their pricing and distribution model is insane.

 

No matter how great a ppv is, it is not worth a month of WWE Network, Progress and two live EVOLVE shows. It's just not and can't be.

 

VOD's should be out within a day. Everything should be live, why not? Is it that much more expensive to have it live then to tape it and put it out on VOD? If that's true, at least it needs to come out quicker.

 

Booking would actually matter quite a bit. The current state of the product makes it unappealing at any price, and is why I didn't seek out tickets to the show tomorrow night. If things are hot you can get away with charging quite a bit. If they're relying on price as a draw that is a race to the bottom without winners in this field.

[bradhindsight]

I don't understand the tag titles thing at all because presumably at the Toronto tapings it set up MCMG vs. the Addiction so War Machine wouldn't get the belts back here since TV is so far in the future. Or maybe they do here and it's War Machine vs. MCMG at the PPV -

 

I've had plenty of Addiction vs. MCMG in ROH this year. And I like their matches.

[bradhindsight]

$45 for HD PPV through traditional cable outlets is priced where it is because of the added cost of being on PPV. They've seemingly made money on this since they keep doing them. It's an antiquated pricing model ($10 more for HD still?), no doubt. I don't know their budget though. I'm curious what TNA's return to PPV this summer will look at price-wise.

 

If the show interests me enough to buy it, I do it for $26 through the ringside discount and online only.

[Mad Dog]

I think the insanity of their price model is when it's 6 months later and they still want the same full PPV price for the VOD.

 

Also why are there no options to download or watch the VOD on TV. It's just lazy.

[Mad Dog]

I kind of knew after the Dayton last October show that they were in trouble. They did this big elimination match for the main event. It came down to Dalton Castle and Moose vs. Jay Lethal and Roderick Strong. Castle and Moose got taken down with relative ease. It was really kind of deflating to watch and really set the tone for the roster going forward.

[Luchaundead]

The idea that both Dijak and Page turned heel after very recent face turns reeks of poor planning. ROH has already pretty much ruined Page and if they keep this up with Dijak the same will happen with him. On that same front now Castle is #1 contender for Fish and I can see him winning the title in a face v face match so either they turn Castle which seem impossible right now or they turn Fish which seems pointless right now or once again Castle comes up short which I not sure he can afford a title shot loss right now as, he is just seeming to build up a hot streak. Any comparison to Evolve right now, outside of in-ring, is purely laughable and even in-ring to my taste Evolve is head and shoulders above ROH. The one big difference for myself as, I am pretty turned off by WWE product whole cloth, is that Evolve's connections to NXT/WWE make it hard for me to take them as seriously going forward. While with ROH because I know they are teaming with NJPW but theoretically should still have aspirations to continue growing that makes me excited for them as an over all property. Meanwhile when Evolve comes out talking about going to more towns and during their debut in Maryland ask the fans if they want to see them back soon it feels less important to me especially asking the crowd that when their return shows are already booked and have been announced. That situation felt like they are manufacturing the appearance of growth. Knowing that Evolve is getting support from WWE it makes me feel like while they are getting more exposure they will always be held to a certain level and I can't get to invested in a company that has a pretty clear, no pun intended, glass ceiling.

[bradhindsight]

The idea that both Dijak and Page turned heel after very recent face turns reeks of poor planning.

 

I think it reeks more of tepid crowd reactions - both of these things fell flat, and maybe that is on the booker for not anticipating well (although i'd counter sometimes you need to try because you never know). In Page's case, he had to turn face because Whitmer is a heat magnet. But I was 100% onboard with him turning heel again once that feud was finished. He's an awful face and the crowd couldn't have cared less.

 

Dijak - once he aligned with Nana and once they did the Martini thing, it seemed to really project he'd be heel. The sympathy/booking was all backwards with the Martini thing anyway.

 

I think War Machine is the third group to include here - although they haven't turned heel - I'm thinking their weak reaction once they won the belts was the driving force towards changing it off them. It's almost like they had booked out that they'd go through the Briscoes even in 2015, but once they got no cheers, they aborted that run as soon as the Briscoes thing was done. By no means am I excusing that rash change after such a "respect" build, it's really bad and there shoudl have been SOMETHING else done to play off that rub they got. Really a complete waste.

[van_Fair]

 

The idea that both Dijak and Page turned heel after very recent face turns reeks of poor planning.

 

I think it reeks more of tepid crowd reactions - both of these things fell flat, and maybe that is on the booker for not anticipating well (although i'd counter sometimes you need to try because you never know). In Page's case, he had to turn face because Whitmer is a heat magnet. But I was 100% onboard with him turning heel again once that feud was finished. He's an awful face and the crowd couldn't have cared less.

There is an easy solution for that. Just break up the faction but have both guys remain heels. There is no law that a team breaking up has to feud with each other. If they had just quietly ended the Decade I don't think anyone would have complained. They probably thought that Page could have gotten over as a face if he feuds with Whitmer, but the problem there is that the people do not want to see Whitmer get beat they just do not want to see him at all. So unless the feuded ended with Whitmer being removed from TV there was no chance for Page to get over in that feud.

[Matt D]

Knowing that Evolve is getting support from WWE it makes me feel like while they are getting more exposure they will always be held to a certain level and I can't get to invested in a company that has a pretty clear, no pun intended, glass ceiling.

 

If the wrestling is good now, was good six months ago, and will probably be good in six months, then why does it matter? It's not a political party or a union you're a part of or something. It's a pro-wrestling company and you're a consumer of their product, not some sort of shareholder.