New Truly Independent ECW Documentary

[Johnny Guitar]

That's a bit harsh. And I don't recall saying that about Kharma.

Yeah it was. Sorry about that. I'll edit my post.

[Childs]

I tried to read the piece about this movie on the WON site, but it was incoherent even by WON contributor standards. Anybody here seen a screener? Thoughts?

[hammerva]

So I just watched the premiere on Highspots TV (still waiting for the Q&A portion of the show). This is a really good documentary on ECW. Not even close to the WWE version of the ECW documentary but so much better than Forever Hardcore it is almost embarrassing. The two things that make this so much better was that they had RF video footage to use and some really good footage not just from 2001 when most of the early interviews were done. Also had some TWA footage. They had footage of the Arena the day of Barely Legal showing the fans, and production trucks, and wrestlers coming in that I have no idea who shot that but was awesome to see. The other things was that instead of a few people like Raven and Shane and Tod there was input from lots of different people like Public Enemy, Meltzer, Wade Keller, Tony Lewis, Atlas Security, Sign Guy Dudley (cant remember real name) and Axl Rotten who although he is a fat mess with bells palsy now was a very articulate and thoughtful guy in 2001. Plus they had footage from the fan cam Q&A so it wasn't completely void of Heyman.

 

The only negative I have with this documentary was showing Extreme Reunion first show and how it was built. I give them credit for not completely glorifying it and treating it like the complete shit it was (even showing footage of Sabu being taken to the hospital and Raven talking to people about the drugs he was on) but except for the Jerry Lynn part seemed useless. Although I thought the footage of Tony Lewis from strictly ECW talking about the feeling stepping in the building was cool to see. The other thing looking back that was really ignored was the use of women of ECW. Except for pictures and Missy Hyatt talking about bringing in Heyman for Gilbert there was nothing

 

If you are sick of hearing about ECW then don't see the DVD because there is nothing you haven't seen a lot already. But if you are an ECW or a wrestling documentary fan then I would recommend getting the DVD or watch on Highspots TV. Although when to get the DVD I am not sure about when because I have a feeling this is going to get the Beyond the Mat treatment where there will be 3 or 4 different versions. I know the extras currently announced is really weak given how much footage was done.

 

Good work on this from all the people involved.

 

Oh: During the movie they were showing prints of the Wrestling Lariat I think and one of the headlines was "Fans dies in ECW hotel party". Well that got my attention. Anybody know something about that.

[Dylan Waco]

Okay I have been waiting to talk about this in great detail so now I am going to talk about this in great detail. In the interest of full disclosure Johnny is a friend of mine (which everyone here knows), we'll have him on the podcast again soon and I was a credited consultant on the film (which frankly I'm not sure I deserved, but it was a nice gesture).

 

I largely agree with hammerva's review, albeit with some minor differences of opinion.

 

On the Extreme Reunion stuff I was dreading it's inclusion in a way and I think it will be the most polarizing aspect of the film. My personal view is that while you can argue it wasn't necessary, the way it was used was extremely fair (i.e. it wasn't a commercial for the product, nor was it a complete "this fucking sucked" fest) and I think it added to the movie to have access to all these guys years after the fact who were still living to some degree off of the limited fame and reputations they achieved through the original ECW. Some of the stuff that came out of that added a lot to the film - namely the scene with Balls/Axl in the stands which I thought was incredibly sad, but really interesting - and other stuff like being in the car with Shane Douglas while they rushed to the scene of the Sabu hotel OD had a real urgency/dramatic effect that you really never see in wrestling documentaries (to this end I wish Johnny and Kevin had filmed the Balls/New Jack fight which they were present for, but that's hardly a real criticism). I don't think anything related to ER took away from the film, so while I can understand those who feel it was odd to include it, I can't consider it a meaningful criticism of the finished product.

 

I thought the front end of the film was a tough balance because they had to get over the importance, uniqueness and cult appeal of ECW, without turning the documentary into a completely fawning fan diary. It's funny because I think they brushed right up against the edge of that, but avoided falling of the cliff and when the documentary really opens up with serious criticisms and attempts to understand/contextualize things like the violence in ECW and the problems with the "too big to be small, to small to be big" business model. I thought the use of newsletter headlines was an excellent touch and the inclusion of so many different wrestling journalist voices added a ton to the movie, to the degree that on that alone I would rank this ahead of the other ECW documentaries.

 

The people who will really stand out in the movie in my view are Tony Lewis, Axl Rotten and Balls Mahoney. I thought Frank Talent from the PA State Athletic Commission had a really interesting explanation for why ECW got away with so much (interesting as in "read between the lines"), but I think with Lewis, Axl and Balls you got the full spectrum of their experience. Lewis really showcases the relevance of hardcore fan involvement in the rise of ECW (this was covered well in general with a good segment that looked at the role of the internet and even tape trading, but not in a way that was super in depth or hyper-esoteric) and Balls and Axl really illustrate the damage that was done by the style, as well as the perverse commitment and hope these guys had in a project that was ultimately doomed to fail (the interview where Balls is hinting that he can't reveal how the bankruptcy restructing of ECW will turn out to Johnny is tough to watch). Axl in particular is fascinating as you see him in full carny mode from some of the RF cyberslam footage, as a pissed off guy with real criticisms of the way he was used in 2001, and then as a caricature of a beaten down wrestling relic at the Reunion in 2012.

 

They did a good job getting into the intimacy of the ECW setting and how that mattered to the product. The scene with Tony Lewis in the Queens Elks Lodge during a church service was as close to a "Kevon Von Erich visits the Sportatorium" moment as you could hope for with a documentary like this. I also really liked the shots from outside at Barely Legal and some of the other RF provided fan shots.

 

In general the editing was WAY better than I expected. I didn't think it would be a disaster, but I was surprised by how much I thought the mood music added to some of the scenes and the way images were bolded and things were strung together really enhanced the finished product. It came across as remarkably professional for a DIY project started by two kids when they were basically teenagers. I was also pleasantly surprised at how much the lack of narration didn't bother me - in fact I thought it was probably the right idea, which is something I was a bit conflicted about having heard pros and cons from many people on the subject for the last several months.

 

I really enjoyed the way the Eddie Gilbert split was covered in this as I had not heard some of the stuff revealed in the documentary before. I also thought the Mass Transit incident was really well done, as was a segment they did which covered fan violence incidents primarily through the prism of the Dudleys (I would note here that as much as I hate to give Gabe credit for anything, he is dead right in noting that the height of the Dudley fan trolling was also the height of the promotion in terms of live attendance). The portion of the doc that outlined the collapse of the promotion in late 2000/early 2001 had some really great quotes and personal comments from Angel, Balls Mahoney, New Jack, Dave Meltzer, Jason Powell and others. The comments about Heyman in particular really stand out from that segment and I think were about as fair as you could reasonably expect.

 

On the subject of Heyman, I think it was genius how quotes of his were used from the cyberslam shows and Queens in ring "shoots." Really a smart way to get his voice in the doc, without having to use a sock puppet or stooge for the Heyman position. I'm sure Paul himself would have to admire the way it was done as in a way it's almost Heymanesque.

 

I think the criticism about a lack of coverage of the women in ECW and how they were used is entirely fair and while it's not something I had thought about, it is about as intelligent a critique as I expect to hear. On the comparison to the previously two ECW documentaries I think it destroys Forever Hardcore, which I don't hate, but which is basically a collection of shoots with no real connection from one to the other. I also feel it is better than Rise and Fall as a movie. If someone wanted to argue Rise and Fall was a better linear history of ECW and the details of what it produces as a wrestling product, that would be impossible to dispute. But it's a timeline, that is designed to cater to fans who wanted a sort of glorified view of ECW's product, while touching on some of the reasons for it's failures in a very surface level, WWE approved way. I really like Rise and Fall a ton, but I couldn't possibly call it a better documentary, even if I do think you could argue it was a better product for primarily wrestling interested fans if that makes sense.

 

I am biased of course, but to me Barbed Wire City is pretty lateral with Heroes of World Class and that is my favorite wrestling documentary. It's fair, presents multiple perspectives, has a unique quality to it, covers the entire spectrum of the promotions history, is well put together and lacks any of the fatal agenda pushing flaws of the WWE produced documentaries many of which I do like (Pillman's, Jake's, et.). I want to watch it more than once before I proclaim it the best wrestling related documentary ever made, but I don't think it's silly to put it in that discussion on first viewing. Perhaps more importantly I do think it is the sort of movie that could be of interest to non-wrestling audiences, though I think an honest assessment has to grant that it won't be easy to do so.

 

As an addendum I think the journalists represented will be picked apart and viewed certain ways by viewers of the film who come from different perspectives regarding ECW. For that reason I will give a quick breakdown on each of them and how I think they came across.

 

Dave Scherer - Real life lowlife and piece of shit, so it almost pains me to say this, but he comes across as a sort of kind old man with an almost endearing attachment to ECW. He's not alienating at all and while you can tell he's a "Rah Rah Team ECW" guy, he isn't so over the top that he makes you cringe.

 

Mike Johnson - Sort of comes across as the ECW house historian. There are times when he will be somewhat critical, but tries to reign it in by playing devil's advocate to his own point or at least that's the best way I can describe it. Still he doesn't come across as annoying, even if he does come across as a bit fanboyish. He also comes across as the person who knows the most about the particulars of ECW, which is almost certainly true.

 

Wade Keller - I was subscribing to The Torch at the height of ECWmania, so I hardly consider myself anti-Keller, but he comes across as a bit of a know-it-all dick. I don't think this was a trick of editing, as his points were often dead on and more reasonable than the alternative points of view offered by others. Still it almost feels like he sees himself as "above" even discussing the obvious flaws of ECW at times. It's weird and I wonder if this isn't a preconceived perception I had coming in that is clouding my judgment.

 

Bruce Mitchell - Comes across as a thoughtful jerk if that makes sense. With Wade you get the feeling he saw some value in ECW. With Bruce you get the feeling he sees the whole thing as a waste of talent and careers. I'm not even sure he really feels that way, it's just how he comes across to me.

 

Jason Powell - Comes across better than any other journalist in the entire movie, which shocked me. Powell is as critical as Bruce and Wade, but does it in a way where you get the feeling that he is sympathetic to the players involved. He's almost like a dad disappointed in the poor behavior of his children who he still loves. I thought his comments on the reasons certain guys did so much damage to themselves and on Heyman, were among the best comments in the whole documentary.

 

Dave Meltzer - If you can set aside his comical choice of attire (if I am criticizing your fashion, you know it's bad), Dave has some great summary lines and added more to the movie than I expected. He comes across as more detached than others, though it's also obvious from the documentary that he is a friend/fan of Heyman. His line about the only guy making money from ECW being Vince was a funny way of summing up the collapse pretty well.

[Guest Andrews]

On the subject of Heyman, I think it was genius how quotes of his were used from the cyberslam shows and Queens in ring "shoots." Really a smart way to get his voice in the doc, without having to use a sock puppet or stooge for the Heyman position. I'm sure Paul himself would have to admire the way it was done as in a way it's almost Heymanesque.

A documentary using archive footage of somebody not available to speak is hardly reinventing the wheel now... it's a very, very basic and used practice.

 

Anyway, really excited to watch this. I'll be ordering the DVD when it's available.

[Dylan Waco]

On the subject of Heyman, I think it was genius how quotes of his were used from the cyberslam shows and Queens in ring "shoots." Really a smart way to get his voice in the doc, without having to use a sock puppet or stooge for the Heyman position. I'm sure Paul himself would have to admire the way it was done as in a way it's almost Heymanesque.

A documentary using archive footage of somebody not available to speak is hardly reinventing the wheel now... it's a very, very basic and used practice.

 

Anyway, really excited to watch this. I'll be ordering the DVD when it's available.

 

 

Didn't mean to imply it was an innovation in the field of documentary film making.

 

The DVD is available to order now

[Guest Andrews]

But you did say it was genius... Which it's not.

 

Not having a pop - I think you're an excellent contributor to the board which I have actually frequented to for years. Just something that caught my eye.

[hammerva]

One thing that was brought up in the Q&A (other wise known as the Blue meanie show <_ was that whole emphasis on the company more blood and guts tables chairs foul mouthed part of ecw. no mention lucha libre a very brief taz his style ability if it wasn for meltzer great cruiserweight action from malenko scorpio guerreros. i guess purpose this documentary to show non wrestling fans then smart marks you should thing made so different even an unfair at times.>

 

Also watching the documentary it gives me hope to be taken seriously in wrestling because damn there are some ugly/goofy people covering wrestling these days. I mean when Meltzer looks the most normal you have issues.

[rovert]

The Torch and PWInsider are feuding again:

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/Torch_F...cle_70117.shtml

 

http://pwinsider.com/article/77061/is-wade...-liar-.html?p=1

[hammerva]

I think we can all agree that in a war between Wade Keller and Dave Scherer that there are no winners

[Guest Andrews]

What a waste of energy.

[Loss]

Dave Scherer's response to Wade's column is infuriating to read. Unbelievable that he can not only lie so much, but be completely aloof about how transparent he is in doing so.

[jdw]

Mr. Schemer is full of shit, as always.

[rovert]

Have to say Bruce Mitchell's audio show on the Torch this morning fresh off Bruce flying to the première and doing the Q&A was really interesting. Bruce and Wade had their constructive criticisms of the documentary but they both highly praised it. Nice to hear them mention how much the film score compliments the film. Bruce and Wade cover the ongoing war of words with Dave Scherer of course but it was interesting to hear Bruce's account of how ECW fans and personnel in the audience didn't really get the message of the film in terms of ECW's human toll preferring to view the documentary as just another celebration of the promotion they loved as if they did do that they would feel they were less of a ECW fan.

[goodhelmet]

Just got off the phone with my buddy Johnny P. Overall, as a two man documentary (Johnny and Kevin did nearly EVERYTHING on the film), an amazing job in putting the film together. Even though I had a DVD on the way, I watched the premiere with my nephew and his wife. My nephew is a wrestling fan but has no clue what ECW was about. His wife is anti-wrestling, period. The character that got over in this setting was New Jack... funny, witty, a little psychotic. Neither had any sympathy for Mass Transit. My nephew's wife was unsettled by the violence but Johnny did a great job of actually explaining why the company was unique when describing the fans, the buildings, the violence and the weird cast of characters. As a wrestling fan, my first instinct was why didn't he go through greater depths in explaining that ECW also had a bunch of foreign guys and world class workers. Johnny explained it would be difficult without making another entire documentary on explaining what a great worker was in the world of wrestling to a non-wrestling fan. With that goal in mind, it makes perfect sense.I am on the opposite side of the fence when it comes to the Extreme Reunion show as Dylan and told Johnny as much. I agree that it did give us a great now and then look at Balls and Axl. Besides that, I never got the sense the documentary went into depths into who Shane Douglas was or who Jerry Lynn was to really give a shit about them holding this show 11 years later. They could have just focused on Balls and Axl at the reunion show and been just as effective. On the other hand, I thought the way they covered Tommy Dreamer and the Dudleys without having them appear in interviews was really great. The business side was covered and I think it was a very fair portrayal of the collapse the company and the battered lives it left behind.

 

I am going to watch the DVD again before I call it the greatest wrestling documentary I have seen. I think since I was a Texas fan (and not an ECW fan during its peak), Heroes of World Class tugged at my heart strings in a way that an ECW documentary never could. As far as editing, music, use of the interviews to tell the story and overall production, this was about 1000 times better than I could have ever hoped for. The photos and wrestling clips were used to great effect and that fancam grittiness really helps bring out how you really felt you were peaking into an underground world you knew nothing about. I haven't seen Nigel's documentary yet (although I have it sitting here) but I can easily compare it to Colt Cabana's documentary. Cabana's film was great for a fan of indy wrestling but there is no way it would be accessible to a non-wrestling fan. With a couple of minor exceptions, I watched the film with a novice wrestling fan and a non-wrestling fan and both were able to stay intrigued and interested throughout the duration. Cabana's editing and production also felt like it was a guy filming a road trip with his buddies on his camcorder. I never felt like I was watching a genuine documentary. This felt like a real, genuine movie without the corporate sheen of a WWE production.

[Guest Andrews]

High words, I hope it can live up to the hype because I love wrestling films.

[khawk20]

High words, I hope it can live up to the hype because I love wrestling films.

Got a personal favourite?

[Guest Andrews]

High words, I hope it can live up to the hype because I love wrestling films.

Got a personal favourite?

 

Wrestling With Shadows will likely always be my #1 by a large margin. Just a ground breaking, ahead of its time (which amazingly still holds up today), thought provoking, well made film. It looks great, it sounds great and it reaches people on a very personal level; fans and non fans alike. It's the real deal. Beyond the Mat has aged a little bit over the years, but it's still a brilliant watch and had the greatest access of any film (even the above) when it came to getting close with the biggest names on a one to one basis. Vince making Droz puke never gets old. Bloodstained Memoirs, although lacking in direction was two hours of high end coverage with some big names and some great moments in-between the inconsistencies. The people who made it are suggesting on Twitter that they are working on a new film. I know they filmed with Dynamite Kid long before Highspots did so this should be very interesting to keep an eye on after the let down of the Highspots effort. Rise and Fall of ECW was excellent, but not definitive. There were huge chunks which went unheard (TWA and geographical origins, Eddie Gilbert, Ravens involvement) and outrageous suggestions (RVD was the only decent wrestler left towards the end of the promotion). Memphis Heat was cracking, I don't know why it went under the radar of so many fans. It looked great, was fun to watch and was informative and on point.

[Bix]

Didn't get my copy yet (thinking it'll get here today), listening to Meltzer & Alvarez discuss it on the latest WOR podcast...

 

Why wasn't footage of the Mass Transit/Kulas incident included? RF Video shot it and he licensed footage to them...did he ask a lot for those specific clips? Or did John decide it was too messed up to show?

[Dylan Waco]

I don't know this to be true, but if it was me and I had a goal of getting some sort of non-wrestling fan traction there is no way in hell I would have had the actual incident in the doc.

[Guest Andrews]

I don't know this to be true, but if it was me and I had a goal of getting some sort of non-wrestling fan traction there is no way in hell I would have had the actual incident in the doc.

But non fan traction would be ruled out straight away because of the way it was filmed, what the focus is, anyway. I'm only going by the trailers, but it seemed totally geared towards wrestling fans. Going by the reports (including your own) it seems this is designed by and towards hardcore wrestling fans.

[Dylan Waco]

That is absolutely not the goal of this. You can argue that it's hopeless for it to not to appeal to non-wrestling fans if you want, but the goal was to make something that non-wrestling fans would be open to

[BrickHithouse]

I was kind of on the fence about getting this. Not a big ECW fan to begin with, but reading what's been said about it from people that have it, I will be definitely be ordering. Excited to see it now.

[jpchicago23]

Ordered mine yesterday, how long has it taken for you guys to receive it? I'm hoping by Friday

[Bix]

I don't know this to be true, but if it was me and I had a goal of getting some sort of non-wrestling fan traction there is no way in hell I would have had the actual incident in the doc.

I haven't seen it yet, but I get what Dave's saying about the need for something, especially if it was possible. Maybe not the actual cutting or blood spurting but show something like the EMTs trying to apply pressure with bloody towels?