Current WWE

[PeteF3]

I have nothing substantial to add, but as someone who hasn't regularly watched WWE in close to 10 years I want to chime in about how absurdly good Dustin Rhodes is right now. Just on the basis of viewing Monday's match and his online rep, he needs to be in a conversation with Tenryu and Lawler among the all-time greatest workers of middle age or older.

 

I didn't find Cody all that compelling as a FIP and it was enough to have me wondering what was so great about the match (for the first few minutes), but his comebacks and transition moves are fantastic--both in concept and in execution.

[KrisZ]

Main event of SD tapings tonight was Bryan/Rhodes Family vs. Shield so another great looking match.

[Dylan Waco]

If Goldust had been booked differently/closer to a main event role in his first run with that character I actually think he'd be in the conversation for GOAT.

 

As far as The Shield I agree with tim and this is coming from someone who was huge on Ambrose for years before he came to the WWE. On Rollins I think the long term prospects for him are strongest as a babyface

[NintendoLogic]

If Goldust had been booked differently/closer to a main event role in his first run with that character I actually think he'd be in the conversation for GOAT.

I strongly doubt that.

[Dylan Waco]

If Goldust had been booked differently/closer to a main event role in his first run with that character I actually think he'd be in the conversation for GOAT.

I strongly doubt that.

 

Well it's not unusual for you and I to completely disagree, but if you had Pat Paterson helping lay out main events, that were heavily promoted and going on last, I see little reason to believe a guy with his talent wouldn't have padded his resume with enough "epic" matches to get him to the level where he would at least be on the fringes of that discussion.

[sek69]

The thing with Dustin is not so much the booking (which didn't help) but his penchant for being not in the best of shape a lot of the time in what would have been his physical prime.

[El-P]

The original Goldust not getting a main event stint in 1996 is probably one of my biggest regret. I have no idea how Dustin would have worked around then, but I agree with Dylan in that he probably would have put on more memorable performances than the ones he did at the time, because he would have been asked to. And considering the body of work he already had in WCW, that would have helped his case in being looked at as a truly great worker. The getting out of shape thingy is an issue though.

[NintendoLogic]

If Goldust had been booked differently/closer to a main event role in his first run with that character I actually think he'd be in the conversation for GOAT.

I strongly doubt that.

 

Well it's not unusual for you and I to completely disagree, but if you had Pat Paterson helping lay out main events, that were heavily promoted and going on last, I see little reason to believe a guy with his talent wouldn't have padded his resume with enough "epic" matches to get him to the level where he would at least be on the fringes of that discussion.

 

I'm sure he would have had good matches. But I don't see him significantly bettering Steve Austin's output during that period. Adding an Austin-level run to his existing resume doesn't strike me as GOAT-caliber.

[Sidebottom]

He was wrestling the WWF champ a lot on house show loops in 1996. In late 95 he would have been an awkward fir for Kevin Nash. If you look at the attitudes of the time, there is no way the fans would have taken to a 7 foot badass biker selling to the sexually ambiguous Goldust. Bret however, had some nice matches with Goldust on Raw in 1996 / 1997. I think being put on top would have actually limited the amount of stuff he could do and therefore how memorable he was warranting his returns, present included. There is no way for instance he'd be giving the Undertaker mouth to mouth backstage for his heat... that was for the Ahmed Johnson's of the world. Although he did work with Taker a bit in 96...

 

So I guess he did pretty much get o work with all of the top stars... and his performances were what they were. I think he was positioned just fine.

[Matt D]

There's a really fun Michaels vs Goldust fancam match from 96.

[tofu_chipmunk]

If you look at the attitudes of the time, there is no way the fans would have taken to a 7 foot badass biker selling to the sexually ambiguous Goldust.

Diesel was supposed to be a biker? I thought with the theme music and name, he was supposed to be a tractor trailer. The WWF really missed the boat on not dressing up Nash as Optimus Prime with that gimmick.

[cheapshot]

There's a really fun Michaels vs Goldust fancam match from 96.

I think it's the Madison Square Garden - August 9, 1996 show that you may be referring too; however it may of been the Tacoma, WA - October 12, 1996 show OR Toronto, Ontario - Exhibition Stadium - August 24, 1996 Ladder match.

 

I'd actually love to see Goldust / Michaels ladder match, sounds a lot of fun.

[cm funk]

He was wrestling the WWF champ a lot on house show loops in 1996. In late 95 he would have been an awkward fir for Kevin Nash. If you look at the attitudes of the time, there is no way the fans would have taken to a 7 foot badass biker selling to the sexually ambiguous Goldust. Bret however, had some nice matches with Goldust on Raw in 1996 / 1997. I think being put on top would have actually limited the amount of stuff he could do and therefore how memorable he was warranting his returns, present included. There is no way for instance he'd be giving the Undertaker mouth to mouth backstage for his heat... that was for the Ahmed Johnson's of the world. Although he did work with Taker a bit in 96...

 

So I guess he did pretty much get o work with all of the top stars... and his performances were what they were. I think he was positioned just fine.

He also worked with Ultimate Warrior in 96. They had a "match" at an IYH PPV (the entire thing consisted of 'Dust stalling forever then walking out).

 

In addition to the house show run with HBK, they had a dark WWF title match at one of the IYH shows. That would have been a good program for TV and a proper PPV main event....I wonder if they didn't do it because of the nature of Shawn's character at the time and the fact that a segment of the crowd already thought he was gay. As it is Shawn's PPV opponents that year (Diesel, Bulldog, Mankind, Vader, Sid) were all strong and certainly none were worse or lower on the pecking order than Goldust at the time.

[Gregor]

There's a really fun Michaels vs Goldust fancam match from 96.

I think it's the Madison Square Garden - August 9, 1996 show that you may be referring too; however it may of been the Tacoma, WA - October 12, 1996 show OR Toronto, Ontario - Exhibition Stadium - August 24, 1996 Ladder match.

 

I'd actually love to see Goldust / Michaels ladder match, sounds a lot of fun.

 

I think he was talking about the ladder match. That one is online and pretty good (albeit clipped); the MSG one is online and kind of bad.

 

There's also a Michaels/UT vs. Goldust/Mankind tag that's pretty good if a bit long.

[Matt D]

Apparently I wrote up all this stuff. I think I was thinking of the ladder match; review is from Nov, 2011:

 

WWF - 8/24/96 - Toronto - Shawn Michaels vs Goldust - Ladder Match

 

I can see why this match is slept upon. The term "ladder match" creates a certain set of expectations, and those expectations were even more prevalent a few years ago. In this match the craziest bump has nothing to do with the ladder and there's only one real jump off of it. The first half of the match, the ladder doesn't even come into play. It's still really good though, and in some ways more structured and better than most ladder matches.

 

Michaels' intensity in the beginning is great. I've seen very little WWF in 96, actually, so I'm not sure if he started most of his matches with that or not. He has this brutal looking chairshot early on when Goldust is going for the ladder the first time, which sort of explains why the ladder doesn't play much of a role for the first half of the match (as Dustin paid bigtime for trying to get it too early). Dustin's punches and general offense look great. Michaels bumps big for him, including one crazy no-hands catapult over the top rope. When the ladder comes into play it's mainly just a prop that Dustin uses to enhance his attack on Michaels' back and he finds smart ways to use it that aren't all that dangerous but look really good.

 

The teases of the finishers are fun for the time. One transition where Goldust sidesteps a roll up in the corner is actually pretty neat. They do a good job at cutting off comebacks and timing everything well. I wish Shawn didn't do this floatover out of a move (twice Curtain call, once slam, once suplex) as a reversal. Three times sort of worked and led into the finish. Four times frustrated me. It's a fancam and cuts now and again towards the end but it's minimal and you can generally figure out what little bits you missed with ease (though at one point Shawn gets his foot stuck in the rope and I kind of wish what happened immediately thereafter had been retained).

 

All in all, a really fun ladder match.

Here's what I said about the others last july:

 

I've got one more Shawn vs Goldust match (house show) to watch (Thanks Gregor!) but I did watch the 9/6/96 Shawn vs Goldust Raw match and I thought it was actually better than all the other ones I've seen so far. It didn't have the fast action, necessarily, but it was really solid. Goldust was very aggressive in the early going and it was obviously he wanted to win the thing. Dustin's offense was both believable and smart. Exactly what the match called for. Shawn was a bit more active from the bottom; instead of just laying there in a chin lock, he'd kick his feet and what not. You really got the sense that Dustin knew this was for the title, that he had earned the shot, and he wanted to WIN it. I thought for sure the kip up was gong to come after the double clothesline but it didn't, and I would have bought the finish after the elbow-drop as into SCM but they twisted it a bit.

 

I think some of the other matches I've seen so far were flashier, but this was the best.

 

Also, one thing I've noticed that 1996 Shawn is very good at is that when he flubs something (which is about once a match), he's USUALLY pretty good at recovering through sheer athleticism and instincts alone. I know sometimes he doesn't and throws a fit, but I've seen more recoveries than not.

 

and I saw the 8-9-96 house show. I'll say off the bat that the most interesting thing about Shawn in 96 is that he really changes things up. I know I said that before, but here it is again after seeing a few more matches. This didn't look all that much like the other two Goldust matches I saw. Lots of different spots and some unique spots, such as missed kick to the head by Goldust (trying to counter a back body drop set up by Shawn) followed by a missed elbow drop by Shawn. Or the beginning of the match being Goldust reversing a Shawn attempt at a piledriver on the floor. The real meat of the match storywise was Goldust grounding Shawn and hooking in a chinlock. Shawn comes back the first time with the elbows but is cut off with a kneelift to the gut. Comes back the second time in a test of strength sort of way a couple of minutes later, but is powered down, and then the third time actually powers out of the thing and tosses goldust across the ring. It's a solid story if not an entirely compelling one. Goldust's chinlocks are pretty good though Shawn's selling isn't as interesting. The fans pop for each comeback but I think in this case, the blending of a slightly quicker pace and the story being told in the TV match worked better.

[Kil]

He also worked with Ultimate Warrior in 96. They had a "match" at an IYH PPV (the entire thing consisted of 'Dust stalling forever then walking out).

 

Which only happened that way because Dustin hurt himself earlier that day and couldn't work.

[tim]

I actually just posted on another forum that in even a moderately less imperfect world there's no reason Dustin shouldn't be in the top 10 US workers of all time discussion. He's so naturally god damn good at wrestling it's unreal. The timing, the selling and bumping, maximizing his offense, milking his segments for all they're worth, he's just brilliant. And he's a guy who outside of early WCW never got "workrate" booking. Well except maybe now. In ECW he was having awesome matches with Ezekiele Jackson and rookie Sheamus and doing great stuff in every one of them. If, say, 5 of his "down" years were spent toward the top of the card having long, prominent matches I don't much doubt he'd be in the GOAT talk.

[Dylan Waco]

If Goldust had been booked differently/closer to a main event role in his first run with that character I actually think he'd be in the conversation for GOAT.

I strongly doubt that.

 

Well it's not unusual for you and I to completely disagree, but if you had Pat Paterson helping lay out main events, that were heavily promoted and going on last, I see little reason to believe a guy with his talent wouldn't have padded his resume with enough "epic" matches to get him to the level where he would at least be on the fringes of that discussion.

 

I'm sure he would have had good matches. But I don't see him significantly bettering Steve Austin's output during that period. Adding an Austin-level run to his existing resume doesn't strike me as GOAT-caliber.

 

He was and is a better worker than Austin in my view. I think if he had been put in those spots his output would have been as good at minimum, likely better and he'd have iconic matches to point to. Couple that with his pre-prime and post-prime stuff and I think he would at least be on the fringes of the discussion as I said before

[efrim]

Just a phenomenal main event to Raw. True instant classic territory as far as the history of Raw goes. Dustin looks possibly better than ever, easily on the shortlist for best workers in the company. The Shield continues to impress - they're starting to accumulate a dizzying number of great matches. Each member is so excellent that its become difficult to put one over the other. Rollins is such an athletic bumper, Reigns is a perfect monster without ever feeling clumsy, Ambrose has a wonderful sense of unhinged menace in the ring. I hope they stay together for a long while to come and really maximize what is already a great run.

[Gregor]

He was and is a better worker than Austin in my view. I think if he had been put in those spots his output would have been as good at minimum, likely better and he'd have iconic matches to point to. Couple that with his pre-prime and post-prime stuff and I think he would at least be on the fringes of the discussion as I said before

Goldust and Austin had some common opponents around that time - Marc Mero, Savio Vega, Undertaker, HHH (although that last one is stretching a bit into 1997). Both guys got 10+ minutes with each of those four opponents. Austin's series with Mero and Vega are generally fondly remembered (and Goldust's forgotten), and Goldust's series with Undertaker and HHH are remembered as boring (and Austin's matches with those two are mostly forgotten). It's not a perfect comparison, because Goldust never got 17 minutes with Mero or a 21-minute strap match, and those are the two sub-main event Austin matches from 1996 that have the best reputation.

 

I don't want to argue about who was better that year, because I don't remember any of those matches very well. I just thought it was worth pointing out that Austin and Goldust were put into some similar spots in 1996, and Austin is generally remembered as doing more with them.

 

Also, a main event match against Bret or Shawn that year doesn't necessarily guarantee an iconic or great match. Both of those guys had their share of misses around that time, even against quality opponents.

[Guest TheGreatPuma]

Claudio was one of my top picks for guys who would thrive in the WWE so I'm excited to see from what I've seen so far the general audience really, really getting behind him. They see something special the X factor in them and well they should, because he's got it. The guy's got so much potential.

 

He's got the incredible feats of strength with a "unique" physique for that. He's more than totally believable/buyable in the ring. You can buy him possibly beating anyone. He's serious and yet hilarious, smart both in and out of the ring and distinct. He's also starting to get the respect admiration from the fans already which is seen among veterans. They seemingly want to turn him face someday but he can do both. If he busts out the UFO, the fans are just going to lose it. I'm going to lose it.

[Strummer]

I know a lot of people are down on him but Del Rio cut a hell of a promo on Smackdown tonight

[Bierschwale]

I like how in the current WWE, you can have Randy Orton imply that he's going to beat and rape a woman and it's totally cool, but nobody is ever allowed to bleed during a match. The mysteries of keeping that PG rating in tact.

[Slasher]

I know a lot of people are down on him but Del Rio cut a hell of a promo on Smackdown tonight

I actually thought it was a poor promo that seemed to be a halfhearted attempt to build him up a little, since it seems like so many people just assume Cena will show up to slaughter Del Rio and take the world title. Then putting the cross armbreaker on Matthews, after a struggle to put him down? Just a desperate play.

[Mini Bennett]

The very real possibility of an Antonio Cesaro vs Goldust match, as well as multiple Real Americans-Rhodes Family matches potentially taking place some time in the nearish future has all of a sudden dawned on me. I'm not planning on missing Raw or Main Event soon.