shoe Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Is this the match Bret complains about where Flair botched the finish and improvised that finish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 WWE Championship Match Bret Hart vs. Yokozuna White Plains, New York • November 29, 1993 If this is the correct date, this hasn't aired anywhere before. I'm thinking it might be the Survivor Series Showdown match though. The listing is kinda disappointing to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Since you say it's disappointing, I'd like to see what you would put on it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBscout Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 For anybody here it's probably all stuff that's easy to find but it's definitely a cool general release for their fans. You get some older stuff and then the later stuff are less memorable ones from those matchups that people probably forgot about or didn't know even existed. I've got a list of a bunch of stuff I'd like to see that is likely to have been taped but never been released and for Bret I've got the following listed... Bret Hart/Ultimate Warrior vs. Papa Shango/Kamala (WWF TV Taping Saskatchewan 10-13-92) Bret Hart/Owen Hart vs. Money Inc (WWF TV Taping Fresno 1-27-93) Bret Hart/Owen Hart vs. The Headshrinkers (WWF TV Taping Lowell 12-14-93) Bret Hart vs. Hakushi (WWF Evansville 7-25-95 Cage Match) Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels vs. Steve Austin/Vader (WWF Chicago 12-26-96) Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker (WWF 1st MSG RAW 9-22-97 Dark Match) Bret Hart vs. Hulk Hogan (WCW San Fran 8-20-99/Reno 8-21/LA 8-22/Pensacola 9-3/Tallahassee 9-4) There's also the first Perfect match from Philly and the Alaska one mentioned in his book plus a couple tags with Michaels from 95 but I doubt any were taped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 I can't remember if I have seen that Islanders v. Hart Foundation match or not, but I know I have seen at least one where the Islanders carried them to a good match. Has the Lafitte match been on a commercial release before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Damn has anyone seen the match listing for Bret's new dvd in March. Looks fucking awesome and has a lot of interesting matches on there. Buzz Sawyer, Dynamite, Leo Burke, The Islanders are just a few match ups from the beginning i recall without looking. It is and I will be getting it. But any footage geek has to be lamenting the absence of the famous Tom McGee match: http://www.wwedvdnews.com/complete-match-l...tion-dvd/32841/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 I badly want to see that Harts vs Money Inc match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 There are a whole bunch of Money Inc matches that happened in 93 that I refuse to believe actually took place. WWF were doing loads of title switches on house shows at that point for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Since Troy asked, these are the changes I would make Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect Maple Leaf Gardens • April 23, 1989 Hart Foundation vs. The Twin Towers Duluth, Minnesota • May 17, 1989 Bret Hart vs. Tiger Mask II WWE / New Japan / All Japan Wrestling Summit • April 13, 1990 I would take out all these matches. The world doesn't need another Bret/Perfect match on DVD. If they wanted to include something from 1989, they could have put on a house show match against Valentine or the PTW match against Martel. The other two matches I would just take out in favor of something from Bret's prime. Bret Hart vs. Bam Bam Bigelow Milan, Italy • April 25, 1993 WWE Championship Match We have the match from Barcelona already on Bret's first DVD. I have not seen the Milan match but I would be surprised if it is worked differently than the one from Barcelona or KOTR. I would have included the HV match with Luger from 5/25 or the HV title defense against Bam Bam from 3/8 (if they really wanted to get a match against Bigelow). Bret Hart vs. Jean-Pierre Lafitte In Your House • September 24, 1995 Probably would have gone with the Raw match the following week and saved this for the Best of IYH release. WWE Championship Match Bret Hart vs. The Patriot In Your House: Ground Zero • September 7, 1997 This was okay but nothing special. I probably would have gone with the Final Four match where Bret wins the belt. WCW United States Championship Match Bret Hart vs. Booker T WCW Monday Nitro • January 25, 1999 Semi-Finals Match for the WCW Championship Bret Hart vs. Sting WCW Mayhem • November 21, 1999 There is a better Bret/Booker Nitro match from the following month on 2/22. The Sting match is kinda a WTF pick since it's only a tournament semi-final, barely 10 min, and nothing memorable. They had a better match on Nitro 10/19 with Bret challenging Sting for the belt that's around 14 minutes. Also, since I have room remaining after ditching the Harts/Towers and Hart/Misawa matches, I would have added the Bret/Yokozuna Survivor Series Showdown or the Cage match for HV. Blu-Ray WWE Championship Match Bret Hart vs. Yokozuna White Plains, New York • November 29, 1993 I'm going under the assumption that the date is correct and this has never been released before. Which is cool, but if you're going to include a never before seen match for the hardcore fan, I'd rather see the Cage match against Lawler, or a singles match against Neidhart, or the Cage match against Hakushi. I mean we already have a good version of Bret/Yoko from the Showdown but there's no available versions of the matches I listed. Bret Hart & British Bulldog vs. Owen Hart & Jim “The Anvil” Neidhart Albany, New York • October 19, 1994 I'd replace this with the Action Zone tag match. Part of the problem for me is that I'm looking at this from a mega-collector's perspective. I have 99% of the matches anyway, so I was hoping for some more things that were never before seen. That's probably unrealistic on my part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 I was never a big Bret fan as a kid, it was Owen I was backing in their 1994 feud. Owen was my favourite in the world in 94 and him getting the win at WWM 10 is one of my fondest memories. I guess I've always been more of a heel guy and it wasn't until his 97 turn that I started to get more interested in Bret. He was always too bland for me but his whiny promos now had a use. WWF started doing the 'GOAT', 'living legend' hype thing for him which you buy as a kid. After Montreal my fandom peaked, partly because of sympathy and partly because this is a guy who I pretty much grew up with and kind of neglected in his prime years and now he was gone for good. Then Shawn went too (who I've always preferred to be honest) and I started to miss the old lot which is one of the many reasons I never really got in to the Attitude era. Now I've grown up I've kind of soured on him a bit. I've since discovered the likes of Flair, Funk, Race, Blanchard, Savage, Dump, Ambrose, hell even rediscover the greatness of Austin, all people that make me laugh or scare the shit out of me or . . . just do something. Give me someone with magnetism and a personality. A guy with a long list of decent matches alone isn't enough for me. It was reading his book that done it for me though. It's not the drugs and the sleeping around I have a problem with - that's his business - I just come out of it thinking that he's a arrogant self entitled mark twat. And I'm a complete hypocrite cos I actively like Shawn for them very reasons. But his is a brash, in your face, comical style of cockiness that transmitted into his performance and made his matches more fun to watch. Bret just has that quite aloofness about him that rubs me up the wrong way. Gahh. I thinks it's about time I dusted off his DVD set again. For the record his match vs Piper at WM8 is for me the best Bret singles match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Bret Hart vs. Bam Bam Bigelow Milan, Italy • April 25, 1993 WWE Championship Match We have the match from Barcelona already on Bret's first DVD. I have not seen the Milan match but I would be surprised if it is worked differently than the one from Barcelona or KOTR. I would have included the HV match with Luger from 5/25 or the HV title defense against Bam Bam from 3/8 (if they really wanted to get a match against Bigelow). The KOTR and Barcelona matches are wildly different but I do get your point. Instead of the Luger match I'd include the handheld of Luger/Ramon vs Perfect/Hart. Can't they seize that stuff as their own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Bret Hart vs. Bam Bam Bigelow Milan, Italy • April 25, 1993 WWE Championship Match We have the match from Barcelona already on Bret's first DVD. I have not seen the Milan match but I would be surprised if it is worked differently than the one from Barcelona or KOTR. I would have included the HV match with Luger from 5/25 or the HV title defense against Bam Bam from 3/8 (if they really wanted to get a match against Bigelow). The KOTR and Barcelona matches are wildly different but I do get your point. Instead of the Luger match I'd include the handheld of Luger/Ramon vs Perfect/Hart. Can't they seize that stuff as their own? I agree the KOTR and Barcelona matches are different. The Milan match probably won't be like the KOTR match so I don't know why I even brought that up. Re: handhelds, I think the problem is they would consider it sub-par quality. It's like a band releasing an audience recording of a live show/song. For the most part, doesn't really happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 All good matches listed. I think we need another Bret DVD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Bret Hart vs. Bam Bam Bigelow Milan, Italy • April 25, 1993 WWE Championship Match We have the match from Barcelona already on Bret's first DVD. I have not seen the Milan match but I would be surprised if it is worked differently than the one from Barcelona or KOTR. I would have included the HV match with Luger from 5/25 or the HV title defense against Bam Bam from 3/8 (if they really wanted to get a match against Bigelow). The KOTR and Barcelona matches are wildly different but I do get your point. Instead of the Luger match I'd include the handheld of Luger/Ramon vs Perfect/Hart. Can't they seize that stuff as their own? I agree the KOTR and Barcelona matches are different. The Milan match probably won't be like the KOTR match so I don't know why I even brought that up. Re: handhelds, I think the problem is they would consider it sub-par quality. It's like a band releasing an audience recording of a live show/song. For the most part, doesn't really happen. Plus with handhelds they would be telling their audience it's ok to illegally film are shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 WWE Championship Match Bret Hart vs. Yokozuna White Plains, New York • November 29, 1993 If this is the correct date, this hasn't aired anywhere before. I'm thinking it might be the Survivor Series Showdown match though. It would be strange for them to be off on both the date and the city. I've seen them be off on dates on the Web, but the arenas are correct. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Ok, one thing that I think I never get across well is this. Bret does his moves, yes, but HOW and WHEN and WHY he does them is different. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmwQQfbamKY Bret/Owen vs Well Dunn in the lead up to Survivor Series 93. He does the inverted atomic drop/clothesline combo, yes, but he does it after catching his opponent on a leapfrog off the ropes. I've seen a bunch of Bret matches and that's not usually how he sets it up. It was during a back and forth part of a shine. He hits the backbreaker/second rope elbow/sharpshooter in succession but he hits the backbreaker off the rope instead of just lifting the guy up like he often does. And the elbow leads right to the sharpshooter which isn't usually how he sets it up even in a lot of his squashes. It works, because that backbreaker is part of his house of fire hot tag, clearing house and as such it rolls right into the finish. He mixes things up to fit the match. Not the what, but the how and the why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 I'm sorry but changing the order of your spots in a squash match is not some kind of evidence of a genius at work. I have a hard time believing he put that much thought into a tag match against Well Dunn. In fact, it looked like they barely put any effort into the structure at all. House on fire hot tag after a couple of minutes is weak sauce. I'm sure Bret mixed things up more than he's given credit for, but I don't think the things you mentioned would be noticeable to 95% of the people watching and certainly not adapted for the sake of Well Dunn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 95% of the audience don't watch wrestling like we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 I was including us in the 95% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Well, there's your first problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 WWE Championship Match Bret Hart vs. Yokozuna White Plains, New York • November 29, 1993 If this is the correct date, this hasn't aired anywhere before. I'm thinking it might be the Survivor Series Showdown match though. I watched this last night and it is indeed the Survivor Series Showdown match. So the location and date for the match are both wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Bret Hart is quite the firebrand on this site over the past couple months. I definitely fall on the pro-Bret side of things. That doesn't mean I think he is the greatest of all time, mind you, but I do think he is a great wrestler. Besides the touring champs (Harley, Flair & Bockwinkel), he seems like one of the few wrestlers that ever could have a complete match unto themselves. He has as many stock bumps that as he has stock moves and this allows him to go out have a wrestling match with any opponent. When you have a talent like that, I think it is impossible for him to be held down. If McMahon continued with his large-man fetish (imagine no steroid trials and Warrior catches on), then I think Bret would have been the WCW World Champion in no time. That is too valuable a talent to be wasted on the mid-card (sorry, Arn, I don't know what happened to you). I do not understand people that say wrestlers like Flair and Bret have the same matches night in and night out. They have repetitive spots, but not repetitive matches. I know that people have been down on the Hart Foundation tag team work, but I feel that Bret was a victim of circumstance in these hyper-compressed, face-oriented, spot-focused matches. Even then, I have yet to see a time in any Hart Foundation match when he is not the absolute, definitive best wrestler in the ring. He is clearly the general in everyone of his matches. He executes his moves the best. He bumps the best. He is at least always selling as well as the babyfaces (I will admit there are a couple babyfaces, a bit better at that). The Hart Foundation vs Killer Bees - 2/86 MSG The one thing I never got about the Killer Bees is how they were supposed to be faces with the Masked Confusion gimmick. Anyways, this starts off with the Bees doing some token leg work on Anvil (think Rockers, but not as exciting), which culminates in a figure-4 that Bret breaks up. Jimmy Hart, clearly 20 years ahead of his time, gets mocked for shopping at a Thrift Shop. Bret slips on the second rope while going for a second rope elbow (a rare sighting of this Bret bump). Brunzell is a house with a small stovetop fire, dangerous, but easily quenched by a blind knee in the back (the ultimate Hart Foundation transition spot). Usual Hart Foundation heat segment: bodyslam on concrete, Demolition Decapitation, and the irish whip sling shot move. I remember this being a little too front facelock-y. Brunzell hits his sweeeeeeet dropkick (Bulldog's is still more impactful), but cant capitalize. The Hart Foundation Irish whip sling shot misses this time around. Blair is a house afire: punches, small package, bodyslams and atomic drops (Bret bumps into Anvil). After the Hart Foundation collision, Brunzell hits his dropkick, but alas we hit the time limit draw. I thought this was on par with 9/85 Bulldogs match is a great match with good solid work. The Hart Foundation/Bulldogs would eventually exceed this match in 1987, but for now it is on par with that. Bret Hart vs Ricky Steamboat - 3/86 This seemed like a solid match and one of the better WWF Steamboat that doesn't have Savage involved. Steamboat just never seemed to fit in the WWF something about just seemed so wrong. Bret Hart pearl harbors him early. The standard Bret turnbuckle bump leads to Steamboat's arm work, which is solid, but uninspiring. Bret transitions with a swinging neckbreaker, a little bit too much of a babyface transition. Bret does one of his favorite 80s sequences: goes for a backbreaker, opponent reverses into a bodyslam, but the wrinkle here is Bret gets the knees up on the splash. Excellent, excellent sequence as you get the hope spot, Steamboat desperately trying to capitalize, but in his overzealousness he over reaches and the Hitman is able to one-up him. Bret follows up with his bodyslam on the parquet floor and successfully gets the backbreaker. Bret misses second-rope elbow and here comes the Steamer. Bret gets a visual pin off a ref bump if I do recall correctly, but the finish ultimately is Steamboat rolling through a Bret cross-body for the win. I know I have been down on Steamboat lately and this is a perfectly good match, but I think Bret is once again the better wrestler in this match and his fingerprints are all over it. Bret can have some borefests, but he did get better at structuring his matches, though that maybe a consequence of McMahon giving him more than 10 minutes at a time. Hart Foundation vs Killer Bees - SNME 11/86 This is not as good as their MSG match due to time constraints and the focus on getting over gimmicks, but it was a decent match. Bret ate a high knee early from Brunzell, which surprised me. Hart Foundation take over with the blind knee (somebody fucked up and ran the ropes towards the middle and Bret had to leap and slide to bury the knee in his back). Demolition Decapitation and then Anvil hits a freakin dropkick. Brunzell hits his dropkick, but cant capitalize that is a pretty good hope spot having seen it twice now. Both Bees end up on the outside: MASKED CONFUSION~! Blair with an atomic drop on Hart sending him into Brunzell and now Anvil irish whipped into Bret. It is pandemonium in there, baby. Blair with the sleeper on Anvil, but Brunzell lets Bret hit a double axe-handle from the top that way he can switch with Blair while the ref is admonishing Bret. Bret gets the tag and eats the small package. It was a decent match structured to get over the Masked Confusion gimmick, which went nowhere because the Bulldogs were firmly positioned as the lead face team until Strike Force took over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Hart Foundation vs Islanders 11/86 Maple Leaf Gardens Best match from the Hart Foundation I have seen so far and it was really good for a WWF Tag. The Islanders, hot damn, I had never seen them before and they were perfect babyfaces for the WWF in the way Rougeaus never could be. They kinda got fucked with the elevation of Strike Force as number one babyface. It doesn't strike me that they would be very good as heels, but we shall see. I have dug Martel and Tito a lot, but the they have a lot of ground to cover to match the sheer energy The Islanders brought to this match. As for this match, Bret does a little bit more stalling than we are used to seeing, but when it comes to bump him and Anvil are ready to make Islanders shine. The Islanders could have been the ethnic response to your RnR Express clones with more WWF-oriented offense (read: Big Ass Spots). My favorite spot of the shine sequence: Haku's causal thrust kick to Bret while he is on the apron that had me going crazy. Bret chooses to do the blind knee as his transition spot du jour. Demolition Decapitation transitions into an Anvil chinlock. Then in a spot of the whole friggin match, Bret runs Tama down the ramp and fuckin throws him down the steps. Holy shit! You didn't see that from the WWF at that time. Bret picks up him to take him back, but for good measure first rams his head into the ramp. Bret can bring the violence when he wants. Some good, quality low-down heel offense follows usually involving ramming Tama's head into stuff. Bret even takes a swing at Haku, payback, muthafucka. Bret sure loves the false babyface tag immediately followed by heel miscommunication I think he could milk it more. Haku comes in double noggin knocker, paint brushes Bret, and it is a double diving headbutt from the Islanders. Tama hits the high cross-body, but in the fracas Nedihart crotches Tama on the ropes and Bret steals one. Are there things these could have done a bit better with more times, I am sure of it. But as it stands, I think this is my favorite Hart Foundation because it felt like the Islanders added something to the Bret show. Plus, there were more cheapshots and violence. I would definitely recommend someone checking this out. WWF World Tag Champs Hart Foundation vs The Islanders - 3/87 Philly I'll be honest a bit of a let down. I thought with 10 extra minutes they could really piece together something for the age, but they spend the first five minutes stalling. I thought the shine was definitely the bets part of this with Haku knocking Bret's block off with a thrust kick off a criss cross. Tama making both Bret and Anvil look foolish on separate occasions. Islanders do some armwork on Anvil before, the blind knee WAIT Tama sees the blind knee and is pointing how smart he is only to have Anvil sledge him in the back. I dug the twist. It was very good face in peril, but I was a bit spoiled by the throw off the ramp bump. They replaced it with Tama flinging himself into the railing once and onto the floor. They did a better job conveying a sense of struggle here, and the violence on the part of Hart Foundation was as ratcheted up with biting, choking and clawing. At this point of the match, I was still saying it could very much exceed expectations. But the finish was really lackluster, they get the hot tag finally after a well done, heat segment and they do a short Haku house a fire and Tama comes flying halfway across the ring to nail Bret with a cross-body only for Danny Davis to put Bret on top in the fracas. I just hated how short it was. I really wanted to see Haku clean house and get some nearfalls before all was said and done. Alas, a fine match for what it was. WWF World Tag Champs Hart Foundation vs Tito Santana & Danny Spivey - SNME 1987 After finishing up his feud with the Macho Man in mid-86, it seems like Vince had his heart set on retooling Tito as a tag team guy, which I think was a smart move. I am looking forward to watching Strike Force. I don't know much about Spivey. I know he had one-off match with Luger that is considered pretty good. He looks like a bigger version of Stunning Steve Austin and seems like the type of guy Vince would have loved to keep. I have no idea why he is wearing the French flag as his trunks. This is your run of the mill, sleepwalk Hart Foundation match. The big spot is Anvil doing the Martel slingshot splash being assisted by Bret. Spivey had to do the FIP b/c they needed Tito for the hot tag and he sucked pretty hard at selling. Tito was sweet off the hot tag with Flying Burritos for everyone. He slaps on the figure-4 on Bret, but Davis comes in and hits him with the megaphone in the chaos. Voila! You have your Wrestlemania III six-man tag match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 Bret Hart vs Ricky Steamboat - 3/86 This seemed like a solid match and one of the better WWF Steamboat that doesn't have Savage involved. Steamboat just never seemed to fit in the WWF something about just seemed so wrong. Bret Hart pearl harbors him early. The standard Bret turnbuckle bump leads to Steamboat's arm work, which is solid, but uninspiring. Bret transitions with a swinging neckbreaker, a little bit too much of a babyface transition. Bret does one of his favorite 80s sequences: goes for a backbreaker, opponent reverses into a bodyslam, but the wrinkle here is Bret gets the knees up on the splash. Excellent, excellent sequence as you get the hope spot, Steamboat desperately trying to capitalize, but in his overzealousness he over reaches and the Hitman is able to one-up him. Bret follows up with his bodyslam on the parquet floor and successfully gets the backbreaker. Bret misses second-rope elbow and here comes the Steamer. Bret gets a visual pin off a ref bump if I do recall correctly, but the finish ultimately is Steamboat rolling through a Bret cross-body for the win. I know I have been down on Steamboat lately and this is a perfectly good match, but I think Bret is once again the better wrestler in this match and his fingerprints are all over it. Bret can have some borefests, but he did get better at structuring his matches, though that maybe a consequence of McMahon giving him more than 10 minutes at a time. Is it fair to say that this was the coming out party for Bret as a potential singles star? He was a heel tag wrestler, wrestling a top-end face, so he should have no hope of winning, as per WWF matches of the day. By the end, I suspect many (like myself) actually thought Bret might score the upset. Bret made you notice him, his potential as a singles star, and what the future might hold for him in this match. I don't think I could be the only one that took that kind of notice the first time I saw this bout. There was no surprise for me at how high he ended up going later on after seeing this match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 With hindsight... maybe. In March of 1986? No way. That's not even "I saw Austin's future in 1991; I saw The Rock had it in 1996"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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