Bret Hart vs. Ric Flair

[Guest Andrews]

Part of my vitriol in this whole thread has been that I don't even think Bret belongs in the conversation with Flair.

Such a bizzare argument. If wrestling was a real sport - Bret literally beat Ric Flair multiple times to answer the question who was better...

 

It's subjective man, people have their opinions.

[Grimmas]

The only thing I'll say in response to that is that I'm not a fan of generalizations about "the site". PWO doesn't have any set opinions on anything. I don't think there's a specific type of wrestling that's people prefer over others here. If a wrestler has any fans at all, they probably have at least one who posts here.

Damn right!

 

 

Damn right!

[Slasher]

I was not really trying to be negative towards the board, and I apologize for claiming that people here were pro-Flair fans. I recognize that there are more people here that are open minded towards a wider variety of wrestlers and styles. I let my bias get in the way. That is all there is to it.

[NintendoLogic]

I don't think what I said was unfair. Saying that tastes are shaped at least in part by past experiences strikes me as completely uncontroversial.

[fishbaugh]

I don't think what I said was unfair. Saying that tastes are shaped at least in part by past experiences strikes me as completely uncontroversial.

Nothing controversial at all. I'm a huge San Francisco Giants fan who was born in 1980 -- no matter what he does, there is a part of me that thinks "Pablo Sandoval is no Matt Williams!" Brandon Belt can have a breakout season, but he'll still be dog shit compared to Wil Clark (he might move up to being even with JT Snow if he's lucky). And when I was a kid, my dad used to always say that 'The Thrill' was no 'Baby Bull' or 'Stretch'. Previous experiences get in there deep and are hard to distance yourself from.

 

My two best buds are serious wrestling fans (they have been watching it every week from childhood into their early-mid 30s), but getting them to look at wrestling outside of what they grew up watching is next to impossible. Whether it was showing them American Dragon matches 6-7 years ago, or making them a 3-disc comp of my favorite Southern matches from the 80s (which neither can be bothered to even put into the DVD player!), they just aren't interested in anything outside of their comfort zone. For the Flair vs. Bret argument, they are familiar with both and would probably vote along their favorite promotion's lines, but they would both put Bret and Flair over someone like Lawler and laugh in your face for even bringing him up. Neither would go online and get into a screaming match because you dared to question the greatness of Kurt Angle, but judging by what I see at most boards, many fans don't have those reservations.

 

But I'd be guilty of the exact same reaction if you shift the form of entertainment being discussed. People can try and tell me that Bob Dylan is the greatest of all time, but from my perspective, he's just some tone-deaf old dude singing boring ass songs about hippie shit when compared to Wu-Tang or Mobb Deep. Hell, I'm not even willing to watch a movie made before the first Star Wars! And nothing anyone can say will ever change that, as Bone Thugs will always be the album playing the first time I saw snow falling, 2PAC will always be the first album I played when I got my first car, and Keith Sweat will always be the artist on the radio when I got my first handjob. Despite being a huge fan of wrestling, I can distance myself from those kinds of emotional connections when thinking about whether 80s WWF is the best ever, but I don't see why it would be weird to think that most people aren't able to.

[JerryvonKramer]

No comment from me.

[NintendoLogic]

I recently saw Flair vs. Brett Sawyer from Portland (the October one) and thought it was blowaway great. It's also more ammunition for my argument that early 80s Flair was the best Flair. He's not stooging or taking shortcuts in this match, he's in full-on asskicker mode. He puts Sawyer over as a credible challenger while still making it clear that he's the world champion for a reason. It's the kind of match I wish he had wrestled more often. Flair fans and non-fans alike should check it out.

[Frankensteiner]

I recently saw Flair vs. Brett Sawyer from Portland (the October one) and thought it was blowaway great. It's also more ammunition for my argument that early 80s Flair was the best Flair. He's not stooging or taking shortcuts in this match, he's in full-on asskicker mode. He puts Sawyer over as a credible challenger while still making it clear that he's the world champion for a reason. It's the kind of match I wish he had wrestled more often. Flair fans and non-fans alike should check it out.

That is definitely something I would agree with. My favorite Flair matches are the early 80s matches against Kerry. I think the difference with Flair from that time period, as you mentioned, is that he was less stoogy and came across as more of a world champ (as opposed to the JCP-TBS era world champion version of the Honkytonk Man). Also, Flair still had the ability to be subtle in the ring at that time which is something he abandoned completely as the years went on.

[JerryvonKramer]

I do think the extent to which Flair was a bitch champ / "Honkytonk Man" style champ in the mid-late 80s is overstated.

[Loss]

He also wasn't facing too many guys like Luger, Sting, Nikita and the Road Warriors in the early 80s. When those guys became more common, Flair developed a formula for getting matches out of them that usually worked. There were limitations to it for sure, but it's what he did, and there were more good matches than bad by a pretty healthy margin. You don't see Ric Flair playing the bitch against Ricky Steamboat or Barry Windham to the same extent. He and Ron Garvin beat the hell out of each other in their matches, and he was an arrogant bully in the Ricky Morton series. He's also definitely a tough babyface in his 1989 run.

[JazeUSA]

He also wasn't facing too many guys like Luger, Sting, Nikita and the Road Warriors in the early 80s. When those guys became more common, Flair developed a formula for getting matches out of them that usually worked. There were limitations to it for sure, but it's what he did, and there were more good matches than bad by a pretty healthy margin. You don't see Ric Flair playing the bitch against Ricky Steamboat or Barry Windham to the same extent. He and Ron Garvin beat the hell out of each other in their matches, and he was an arrogant bully in the Ricky Morton series. He's also definitely a tough babyface in his 1989 run.

I agree w/ this, Flair always played the part required of him regardless of his opponent every night out

[jdw]

I do think the extent to which Flair was a bitch champ / "Honkytonk Man" style champ in the mid-late 80s is overstated.

Not really.

[jdw]

He also wasn't facing too many guys like Luger, Sting, Nikita and the Road Warriors in the early 80s. When those guys became more common, Flair developed a formula for getting matches out of them that usually worked. There were limitations to it for sure, but it's what he did, and there were more good matches than bad by a pretty healthy margin. You don't see Ric Flair playing the bitch against Ricky Steamboat or Barry Windham to the same extent.

I really think if you watch those closely you'll see that Ric bitches out to both (and the ref if needed). Steamer and Barry sell more for him that Big Guys, but it doesn't mean that the sum of the match is that they kicked the shit out of The Champ, and The Champ hung on to the title via fluke and/or cheating and/or being out of it at the finish.

 

 

He and Ron Garvin beat the hell out of each other in their matches,

Sure... but Ronnie kicked the shit out of him more. 67/33?

 

 

and he was an arrogant bully in the Ricky Morton series.

Well... that only happened after Little Ricky pinned The Champ clean in the middle. And Morton is Morton. It would be like comparing how Taue sold for Akiyama in 1993 compared to how he sold for Misawa.

 

He's also definitely a tough babyface in his 1989 run.

I don't think anyone has ever said Ric was a bitch as a babyface.

 

John

[goodhelmet]

This really feels like jdw's passive aggressive way of demeaning Flair. I have watched tons of 80s Flair. In his matches, he may have "bitch"spots but rarely does he play the bitch the entire match.

[Loss]

Is Jumbo selling a forearm from the apron to the floor for minutes at a time "playing the bitch"?

[Loss]

He also wasn't facing too many guys like Luger, Sting, Nikita and the Road Warriors in the early 80s. When those guys became more common, Flair developed a formula for getting matches out of them that usually worked. There were limitations to it for sure, but it's what he did, and there were more good matches than bad by a pretty healthy margin. You don't see Ric Flair playing the bitch against Ricky Steamboat or Barry Windham to the same extent.

I really think if you watch those closely you'll see that Ric bitches out to both (and the ref if needed). Steamer and Barry sell more for him that Big Guys, but it doesn't mean that the sum of the match is that they kicked the shit out of The Champ, and The Champ hung on to the title via fluke and/or cheating and/or being out of it at the finish.

Look at the bolded parts. I believe that's what I said.

 

 

Sure... but Ronnie kicked the shit out of him more. 67/33?

This is a bad thing worth criticism?

 

Well... that only happened after Little Ricky pinned The Champ clean in the middle. And Morton is Morton. It would be like comparing how Taue sold for Akiyama in 1993 compared to how he sold for Misawa.

Flair's job was to get Morton over as a worthy challenger. Ricky Morton, a great wrestler, but one who was primarily a tag wrestler and weighed under 200 lbs. If Jumbo was tasked with getting over Kikuchi as his top challenger so the match could draw money, what do you think he would do?

 

I didn't realize that selling or giving an opponent offense is now "bitching out". I also didn't realize that a top heel building all of his matches around the idea that his opponent has a fighting chance is a bad thing. That was his job, to create doubt over the outcome.

[Loss]

This thread is my Hotel California.

[Matt D]

I checked out a while ago.

[PeteF3]

I literally can't fathom the suggestion that Flair is akin to the Honky Tonk Man or even Heel Lawler as champion. I broke down the Flair/Lawler comparison in one of the '90 Yearbook threads already, I think in the Lawler vs. Jarrett thread from April. The differences are readily apparent once you've seen a few matches of Lawler as a heel. Flair didn't use chains or foreign objects to get or maintain an advantage--only as finishes or occasional false finishes. The figure four and the idea that Flair could destroy the babyface's knee loomed over every match--yes, even though Flair was constantly killing his own finisher. No one--nobody on the planet--feared that the Shake Rattle 'n Roll or the fistdrop was going to end anybody's career. I've literally never seen Flair work the mic in the middle of a match--maybe a counterexample exists out there, but having watched a fuck ton of Flair I haven't come across such an occurrence. That Flair engaged in begging off and bitch spots does not make him the equivalent to the Honky Tonk Man. One wonders how someone who's admittedly lost interest in viewing any Flair match at all in 5-10 years would be in a position to make or even comment on such a comparison.

[Frankensteiner]

He and Ron Garvin beat the hell out of each other in their matches,

Sure... but Ronnie kicked the shit out of him more. 67/33?

 

I think Flair took less than that. I recently re-watched the Flair/Garvin match from the Superstars on Superstation special and (IIRC) Flair got all of 3 (!) moves during a 16 minute match and this includes the weak ass running knee to Garvin's back which ended the entire thing. Sure, Flair threw some chops here and there but all of those were done just to set up getting his ass kicked over and over by Garvin.

[Dooley]

I checked out a while ago.

But you can never leave.

 

(sorry, had to be done)

[JerryvonKramer]

Loss and Pete have made all the arguments I would have made.

 

I agree w/ this, Flair always played the part required of him regardless of his opponent every night out

Just want to elaborate on this point a bit more:

 

The extent to which Flair sells is also dictated as much by context as it is by the opponent. For example, he gives Luger a lot more time on offense (and gets much less in himself) at Bash 88 than at Starrcade 88. There's a good reason for that: Flair had been ducking Luger for weeks before the Bash match and Luger was full of fire ready to beat him up (it's basically Hogan vs. Bock). That match had a bullshit finish designed to send people home with the idea that Luger had the beating of Flair who had weaseled out on a technicality. If I was to point to one match that has "Flair as HTM" it's that one.

 

But by Starrcade, in storyline, Flair had had months to prep -- and was now being positioned as greatest champ ever™. He was able to take out Luger's leg during the match, which gave him the win. That match was designed to leave you thinking Flair is the GOAT champ and that Luger is not going to get another title shot for a long time.

 

Sure, Luger gets a lot of time on top in both matches, but in the second match there's no sense in which you come away from the match not thinking Flair is the better wrestler.

[jdw]

This really feels like jdw's passive aggressive way of demeaning Flair. I have watched tons of 80s Flair. In his matches, he may have "bitch"spots but rarely does he play the bitch the entire match.

Who exactly says Flair bitches out the entire match? At some point he needs to be on top to apply the figure four.

 

Now granted... he does bitch out of the face reverses it, and he does bitch out if the face (Any Face) applies to him and happens to apply it better than the Master of the Figure Four and those do more damage to Ric than Ric's own figure four did to the Face. I mean... if they do go to those spots, Ric is bitching out like a MoFo.

 

But yeah, have fun defending Ric's bitchiness by claiming others say he does it 100% of his matches.

 

John

[jdw]

Is Jumbo selling a forearm from the apron to the floor for minutes at a time "playing the bitch"?

Was Jumbo shaking his head saying "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!" while begging off of Misawa on the spot?

 

Or had he been knocked the fuck out?

 

I think you can come up with better examples of Jumbo bitching out like Flair when he was heeling opposite Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi and Kikuchi.

 

John

[jdw]

He also wasn't facing too many guys like Luger, Sting, Nikita and the Road Warriors in the early 80s. When those guys became more common, Flair developed a formula for getting matches out of them that usually worked. There were limitations to it for sure, but it's what he did, and there were more good matches than bad by a pretty healthy margin. You don't see Ric Flair playing the bitch against Ricky Steamboat or Barry Windham to the same extent.

I really think if you watch those closely you'll see that Ric bitches out to both (and the ref if needed). Steamer and Barry sell more for him that Big Guys, but it doesn't mean that the sum of the match is that they kicked the shit out of The Champ, and The Champ hung on to the title via fluke and/or cheating and/or being out of it at the finish.

Look at the bolded parts. I believe that's what I said.

My point was that he bitched out to them as well.

 

Hell, he bitched out to guys like Italian Stallion. We're going to see it a lot against guys like Steamer and Barry.

 

 

 

Sure... but Ronnie kicked the shit out of him more. 67/33?

This is a bad thing worth criticism?

Depends on whether one likes a bitchy champ our nor. I'm only saying that the attempt to say he didn't play the bitch to Ronnie is incorrect. He did.

 

Well... that only happened after Little Ricky pinned The Champ clean in the middle. And Morton is Morton. It would be like comparing how Taue sold for Akiyama in 1993 compared to how he sold for Misawa.

Flair's job was to get Morton over as a worthy challenger. Ricky Morton, a great wrestler, but one who was primarily a tag wrestler and weighed under 200 lbs. If Jumbo was tasked with getting over Kikuchi as his top challenger so the match could draw money, what do you think he would do?

The fans wouldn't buy Kikuchi as a top draw.

 

Instead, Jumbo got over a former Jr. heavy who frankly was pretty light realtive to Jumbo in 1990 and had accomplished nothing of note as a heavy singles in his entire career up to that point... and we can say that Jumbo got Misawa over quite a bit better than Ric got over Morton.

 

Or Sting.

 

Or Lex.

 

Or... anyone in the 80s and 90s?

 

Kerry was a combo of Flair and the Birds. I give Flair a lot of credit for that. But Misawa... that was 100% Jumbo getting him over.

 

So yeah, Jumbo was able to get over a slight guy who'd never been noteworthy as a heavyweight singles or a contender to any of AJPW big titles. Kind of did it without bitching as well.

 

 

I didn't realize that selling or giving an opponent offense is now "bitching out".

You can go back to the other thread to find where we talked about bitching out. You're trying to stretch it to cover all forms of selling and giving an opponent offense. No one has ever said that.

 

 

I also didn't realize that a top heel building all of his matches around the idea that his opponent has a fighting chance is a bad thing. That was his job, to create doubt over the outcome.

A fighting chance? Good lord... Ric didn't make it look like his opponents had a fighting chance. He made it look like they were vastly better than he was, often to the point that it looked like Ric *himself* had no fighting chance. Which led to the only way out being fluking though after getting the shit kicked out of him, at times through a Dusty Finish or a Screw Job or The Horsemen Run in.

 

And before someone runs off and claims that I'm saying Ric built 100% of his matches that way, it's not what I'm saying.

 

John