elliott Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Agreed that the Inoki matches are definitely worked differently and there was a few that I did like a lot. So yeah, add the 4/3/80 one if Matt wants to take a look at more than the early 90s stuff we're suggesting. I also give major props to people able to have good/interesting matches with Inoki. The 75 match against Destroyer is also great to see Stan in a totally different setting. Matt should just get Will's mega Hansen set and review the whole thing Also Matt, the Taue match from 94 is on Ditch's site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 I'm mainly talking All Japan tags in the 80s and what I've seen of him in the 90s. I am not going back to the 75 Destroyer match for this. You guys get three. I'll watch that Taue match once I can snag it. To rephrase what I mean when I say I'm not super interested in his stuff, it's that I get the sense that Hansen just puts his head down and charges forward at his opponent for twenty minutes, and it's then up to his opponent to survive the charge and/or find a way to negate it. That's the narrative of almost every Hansen match I've seen the 80s and 90s in Japan, and even when done well, that's not something that excites me. I get why people like it. I can admit it's well done, but it doesn't interest me much. I could be wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Ok since we only get 3 I vote for the matches mentioned against Kobashi, Kawada, and Taue. I suspect that this will end up being a "different strokes" issue because if you asked me what it is that I like about Hansen his charging forward approach to match structure is something I would point to because he did it so well, the style fit his character so well, etc. I feel like a force of nature like Stan Hansen should be forcing people to survive the charge/figure out a way to negate it. I think the way he worked offensively was utterly brilliant for what he needed to portray in the ring. Also, as I've said before, I think his selling is excellent and completely logical. He's a big badass Texan who knows he can withstand random shots from these punk Japanese guys and on his way to blasting through them. He's going to charge forward to put you off your game and make you play his way. If you can figure out how to slow down the train or even derail it, that's a credit to your abilities/toughness. Anyway, I'm rambling now. Even if you watch those matches and hate them or just don't see what I see, I'm still interested in reading your thoughts on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Matt, I'm not trying to troll you here but I'm having trouble reconciling your Hansen criticisms with this post: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/16445-one-and-only-demolition-thread/?p=5508971 It seems like you're knocking on the door of criticizing Hansen for the same things you praise Demolition for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Good spot. In fact, I indicated as such above. I'm going to quote the whole post. I meant the fact that I was super weird. But, it stems from the fact I like matches with broader and deeper selling more than hard hitting, face crashing affairs. From what I've seen of Japan Hansen, I'm fine with the stuff where he's really dominant, but that's about it. I like how he tends to sell outside of Japan better. He's one of the most naturally logical wrestlers I've ever seen, as in, you watch his matches and think "Yeah, okay, this is what would happen," and it has this intrinsic logic in a way that I appreciate in other wrestlers and respect in him, where it's more driven by action than thought, where all other options are sort of squeezed out so that there's really only one way it could go. I just don't always dig that one way. It's remarkable, though. Absolutely. It's just not for me. So, if you parse that, I'm giving him credit for the same thing I give Demolition credit for. I said I respected it and that it was even remarkable for how impressive it is. To me, the end result in Hansen japan matches is less in the form of shine/heat/comeback, though. The end result becomes sort of a constant back and forth motion, an ebb and flow, something more circular instead of something with act breaks and escalation between them. The match doesn't crystallize in the same palatable way. Matches don't necessarily have to have that format, BUT in a situation with such organic storytelling, I think it helps for me to enjoy it. Otherwise, it's becomes a lot of noise to me. I don't for a second take away from what Hansen does, though. I think it's hugely impressive. It just becomes a little overwhelming to me, because I don't necessarily feel like it changes gears in the same way. I probably wouldn't like Demolition in Japan either, and as I said, I've quite liked the Hansen I've seen OUT of Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 I thought it was clear the whole time that Matt D just doesn't so much dislike Hansen in Japan as much as just not really like style of wrestling in Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 That's not unfair, but I think it's a stretch. There's stuff I've liked certainly, both whole matches, and portions of matches, but when you add in this particular narrative and the way it's generally executed, I have a hard time with it given everything else. At least, I think that's the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Good spot. In fact, I indicated as such above. I'm going to quote the whole post. I meant the fact that I was super weird. But, it stems from the fact I like matches with broader and deeper selling more than hard hitting, face crashing affairs. From what I've seen of Japan Hansen, I'm fine with the stuff where he's really dominant, but that's about it. I like how he tends to sell outside of Japan better. He's one of the most naturally logical wrestlers I've ever seen, as in, you watch his matches and think "Yeah, okay, this is what would happen," and it has this intrinsic logic in a way that I appreciate in other wrestlers and respect in him, where it's more driven by action than thought, where all other options are sort of squeezed out so that there's really only one way it could go. I just don't always dig that one way. It's remarkable, though. Absolutely. It's just not for me. So, if you parse that, I'm giving him credit for the same thing I give Demolition credit for. I said I respected it and that it was even remarkable for how impressive it is. To me, the end result in Hansen japan matches is less in the form of shine/heat/comeback, though. The end result becomes sort of a constant back and forth motion, an ebb and flow, something more circular instead of something with act breaks and escalation between them. The match doesn't crystallize in the same palatable way. Matches don't necessarily have to have that format, BUT in a situation with such organic storytelling, I think it helps for me to enjoy it. Otherwise, it's becomes a lot of noise to me. I don't for a second take away from what Hansen does, though. I think it's hugely impressive. It just becomes a little overwhelming to me, because I don't necessarily feel like it changes gears in the same way. I probably wouldn't like Demolition in Japan either, and as I said, I've quite liked the Hansen I've seen OUT of Japan. Reading this I think you'll really like the Kobashi match as I think it has more of a clear structure that you seem to be looking for. I still don't agree overall but I'm beginning to understand your perspective. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Hansen has said that the way he wrestled was he would go at guys and see how they reacted, then wrestle accordingly. I always appreciate that about Hansen, he doesn't necessarily have one or two structures he likes, he wrestles everybody different because everyone reacts different when he goes at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 . The Andre match is both awesome and a glimpse of Hansen as Ricky Morton. Perfectly said. I just watched that last week and fell in love with it all over. Both guys are bumping all over the place really. It is such a fun brawl among two bulls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 I'd add a Baba singles. Still some of the best I've seen from the giant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 Thinking about it a little more, even though I love the Kawada and Taue matches perhaps it would be more instructive for Matt to watch: 9/4/91 vs Kobashi 7/27/93 vs Kobashi 4/10/94 vs Kobashi So my thinking is this would give Matt a good view of early 90s aging Hansen vs the young up and comer on the rise at 3 different stages of his career: Not close to ready to beat the vet, close to ready to beat the vet, ready to beat the vet. If Matt is willing to watch a 4th match, I would include 9/5/96 vs Kobashi at yet another stage in his career in another great match worked differently from the prior three. Then if you like those watch the other stuff then watch everything because it is marvelous and you will love it all. But if you're not into the Kobashi series, then I would say you're unlikely to dig any of Hansen's work in Japan. I dunno, just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 I tend to think the Taue match needs to be watch because the entire match is about Selling. It's a 17 minute Single Storyline Match, unlike anything else that I've ever seen Stan do. Stan does it perfectly, to such a degree that it seems likely he did it other times in his career that we just don't happen to be lucky enough to have on tape. Matt's comment was: "But, it stems from the fact I like matches with broader and deeper selling more than hard hitting, face crashing affairs." There is no Hansen match with broader or deeper selling. Of course it would also be helpful to watch Hansen's from the night before to understand why he's selling and how it ties into this match. But that tends be an issue when dealing with "Give Me 3 Matches" to try to sum up a wrestler, or an aspect of a wrestler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 8, 2015 Report Share Posted August 8, 2015 I've seen the first Kobashi match and the Taue match so far. I'll see more and hope to have comments on each match by mid next week. Thanks for suggestions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 13, 2015 Report Share Posted August 13, 2015 I'm still not ready yet. I've seen another the 93 Kobashi match now too. I have notes for all three that I have seen. At the least I think I can refine my argument. I will say that the selling of the first half of 93 Kobashi match was exactly what I was looking for in a way that the selling in the Taue match was not. That's not to say that the selling in the Taue match wasn't remarkable, because it was, but the performances were very different. I'll elaborate when I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 13, 2015 Report Share Posted August 13, 2015 vs Toshiaki Kawada (02/28/93) is Hansen's masterpiece imo. If ever he had a GOAT-case performance, it's that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted August 13, 2015 Report Share Posted August 13, 2015 Parv, I watched Hansen-Kobashi from Sep '91 last night. Thought it was phenomenal, and the yearbooks gushed over it. I remember you didn't seem overly enthused on your podcast - did you write up a review on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I just finished the Hansen vs Colon series the other day and absolutely loved it. I gave the bullrope match and the cage match 4 and 3/4 stars. The matches were covered very well earlier; I just want to sing the praises of my favorite match of the series for just a second. The bullrope match edges out the cage match to me. It highlighted how versatile Hansen is. When he got pulled back right before hitting the fourth corner about 3/4ths through the match and he wails like he is crying openly I thought it was just a brilliant little moment. To see a big ass kicker like Hansen doing that added so much to the dynamic between the two. I generally don’t bullrope matches (or any match that requires the corner touching gimmick, but this one was fantastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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