rzombie1988 Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Silly question, Why aren't Tennis venues used for outdoor wrestling events? The more I look at them, the more it seems like it would be a good size for a ring and good sight lines. I suspect the markets with appropriate tennis venues have better indoor venues for wrestling nearby. For example, the tennis stadium at the Home Depot Center in LA hosts a couple boxing cards every year, but that venue only seats about 8K. 8K seems like too large a venue for indies and TNA, but not big enough for summer slam. That said, it is a pretty good place for boxing, so I don't think your idea is too far fetched. It would be hard to fit a WWE stage in there and they'd have to cut so much off that it wouldn't be worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Do any major tennis venues have any other events held there? I know the show courts at Wimbledon are ONLY used for the Wimbledon championships, so only used for 2 weeks a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 The major tennis venues are usually open to the public or to members during non-tournament times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 This is what I have crowd wise from the peak era to the end. There were a lot of factors to the demise of Mid-South such as the oil crisis, spending way beyond their means, Ken Mantell's booking, Duggan leaving for Vince....etc.. Mid-South @ New Orleans, LA – Superdome – June 16, 1984 (21,700) Buddy Landell d. Sonny King No DQ for the Mid-South Tag Titles: The Midnight Express © d. The Rock n Roll Express Velvet McIntyre & Princess Victoria d. Peggy Lee Leather & Wendi Richter Chris Adams & Stella Mae French d. Jimmy Garvin & Precious Mid-South TV Title: Terry Taylor d. Krusher Khruschev © No DQ for the North American Heavyweight Title: Magnum TA © d. Ted DiBiase Ghetto Street Fight: Junkyard Dog d. Butch Reed Mid-South @ New Orleans, LA – Superdome – August 24, 1984 (21,000) The Fantastics d. Krusher Khruschev & Buddy Landell Mid-South TV Title: Terry Taylor © d. Steve Williams Hacksaw Duggan vs. Hercules Hernandez North American Heavyweight Title: Magnum TA © vs. Butch Reed Dusty Rhodes & Sonny King vs. The Midnight Express NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © battled Kerry Von Erich to a DDQ Mid-South @ New Orleans, LA – Municipal Auditorium – September 3, 1984 (4,000) Steve Williams d. Terry Taylor Mid-South Tag Titles: The Fantastics d. The Midnight Express © by DQ Hair vs. Jim Cornette’s Hair: Hercules Hernandez d. Hacksaw Duggan Mid-South @ New Orleans, LA – Superdome – November 22, 1984 (7,500) Chavo & Hector Guerrero d. Brickhouse Brown & Master G Handicap Match: Adrian Street & Miss Linda d. Bill Dundee Hacksaw Duggan & Butch Reed d. Ted DiBiase & Steve Williams Magnum TA d. Ernie Ladd by DQ Scaffold Match: The Rock n Roll Express d. The Midnight Express Mid-South @ New Orleans, LA – Lakefront Arena – January 21, 1985 (8,000) Jake Roberts d. Terry Daniels Iceman Parsons d. Jack Victory Chavo & Hector Guerrero d. The Fantastics Kamala d. Billy Jack Haynes Mid-South Tag Titles: The Rock n Roll Express © d. The Midnight Express Butch Reed d. One Man Gang Chris Adams fought Kerry Von Erich to a draw Texas Tornado Match: Ted DiBiase & Steve Williams d. Hacksaw Duggan & Terry Gordy Mid-South @ New Orleans, LA – Superdome – March 30, 1985 (9,500) Jake Roberts d. Shawn Michaels Steve Williams d. Terry Daniels American Heavyweight Title: Kerry Von Erich d. Chris Adams © by DQ Brad Armstrong, Terry Daniels, & Shawn Michaels d. Edcar Thomas, Thor, & Jack Victory Ghetto Street Fight: The Barbarian d. Butch Reed Michael Hayes d. Paul Ellering by DQ Elimination Match: The Rock n Roll Express d. The Dirty White Boys, Terry Gordy & Buddy Roberts, & The Road Warriors North American Heavyweight Title: Terry Taylor © d. Kamala by DQ Loser Leaves Town Tuxedo Street Fight Coal Miners Glove Steel Cage: Hacksaw Duggan d. Ted DiBiase Mid-South @ New Orleans, LA – Superdome – June 1, 1985 (11,000) Dutch Mantell d. Mark Ragin The Nightmare d. Frank Lang Wendell Cooley d. Eddie Gilbert by DQ The Barbarian d. Pat Rose Bill Dundee d. Tom Prichard Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts d. Brad Armstrong & Brickhouse Brown Mid-South TV Title: The Snowman © d. Jake Roberts by DQ Boot Camp Match: Terry Daniels & Sgt. Slaughter d. The Dirty White Boys NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Terry Taylor Mid-South Tag Titles: Ted DiBiase & Steve Williams © d. The Rock n Roll Express Hacksaw Duggan fought Kamala to a draw Mid-South @ New Orleans, LA – Municipal Auditorium – June 24, 1985 (6,000) Dutch Mantell d. Wendell Cooley Eddie Gilbert d. Terry Taylor Mid-South TV Title: The Snowman © d. Len Denton North American Heavyweight Title: The Nightmare © d. Brad Armstrong Terry Gordy & Buddy Roberts d. The Rock n Roll Express The Barbarian & Jake Roberts d. Ted DiBiase & Steve Williams Hacksaw Duggan d. Kamala by countout NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Butch Reed by DQ Mid-South @ New Orleans, LA – Superdome – August 10, 1985 (15,800) Pat Rose d. Frank Lang Wendell Cooley & Mark Ragin d. Jerry Grey & Carl Styles Little Tokyo d. Little Coco Al Perez d. Eddie Gilbert The Fantastics d. Bill Dundee & Dutch Mantell North American Heavyweight Title: Dick Murdoch d. The Nightmare © Steel Cage for the Mid-South Tag Titles – SR: Bob Sweetan: Ted DiBiase & Steve Williams © d. The Barbarian & Jake Roberts No DQ, No Time Limit, Loser Leaves Town: Kamala & Mr. Kareem Muhammad d. Hacksaw Duggan & Bill Watts NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Butch Reed Mid-South @ Tulsa, OK – Convention Center – September 22, 1985 (7,200) Jake Roberts d. The Barbarian by DQ Butch Reed d. The Nightmare Kerry & Kevin Von Erich d. The Dynamic Duo Dick Murdoch d. Lord Humongous Wendell Cooley, Hacksaw Duggan, The Midnight Rider, & Al Perez d. El Corsario, Mr. Kareem Muhammad, Bob Sweetan, & Steve Williams Mid-South @ Baton Rouge, LA – Centroplex – February 10, 1986 (4,500) Gustavo Mendoza d. Perry Jackson Koko Ware d. Sean O’Reilly Tarras Bulba d. Ricky Gibson Terry Taylor d. Rick Steiner The Sheepherders d. Al Perez & Brett Sawyer Hacksaw Duggan d. Buzz Sawyer No DQ, Loser gets 5 lashes: Dick Slater d. Jake Roberts Ted DiBiase & Steve Williams d. Masked Superstar & Dick Murdoch Mid-South @ Oklahoma City, OK – Myriad – February 11, 1986 (8,000) The Sheepherders d. Ricky Gibson & Al Perez Mid-South Tag Titles: Ted DiBiase & Steve Williams © d. Masked Superstar & Dick Murdoch by DQ Koko Ware d. Sean O’Reilly Kortsia Korchenko d. Perry Jackson David Peterson & Brett Sawyer d. Rick Steiner & Mike Scott Hacksaw Duggan d. Gustavo Mendoza The Rock n Roll Express d. The Fabulous Ones Dick Slater d. Jake Roberts Masked Superstar, Dick Murdoch, & Buzz Sawyer d. Ted DiBiase, Hacksaw Duggan, & Steve Williams The Sheepherders d. The Bruise Brothers Buzz Sawyer d. Al Perez Masked Superstars d. David Peterson & Steve Doll Tarras Bulba d. Tracy Smothers Ricky Gibson & The Rock n Roll Express d. Sean O’Reilly, Rick Steiner, & Mike Scott Koko Ware d. Gustavo Mendoza Terry Taylor d. Jake Roberts Bunkhouse Battle Royal won by Steve Williams UWF @ Jackson, MS – Fairgrounds Coliseum – April 5, 1986 (2,000) Sean O’Relly d. Gustavo Mendoza Rick Steiner d. Ricky Gibson The Blade Runners d. David Peterson & Brett Sawyer Kortsia Korchenko d. Perry Jackson Koko Ware d. Tarras Bulba Hacksaw Duggan d. Dick Slater Texas Tornado: The Sheepherders d. Terry Taylor & Steve Williams UWF @ Springfield, MO – May 3, 1986 (7,500) Brett Sawyer d. Gustavo Mendoza Tracy Smothers d. Sting Steve Williams d. Rock Buzz Sawyer d. David Peterson Koko Ware d. Eddie Gilbert by DQ Jack Victory d. Terry Taylor The Fantastics d. The Sheepherders Hacksaw Duggan d. Kortsia Korchenko by DQ Bunkhouse Brawl won by Terry Taylor UWF @ Jackson, MS – May 27, 1986 (6,500) Jack Victory d. Perry Jackson Rick Steiner d. Brett Sawyer The Blade Runners fought Koko Ware & Steve Williams to a draw Chavo Guerrero fought Buzz Sawyer to a draw Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts d. Ted DiBiase & Terry Taylor Hacksaw Duggan d. Kamala by DQ UWF @ New Orleans, LA – Superdome – June 14, 1986 (7,200) Brett Sawyer d. One Man Gang by DQ Robert Gibson d. Baron Von Raschke Koko Ware d. Jack Victory Terry Gordy & Buddy Roberts d. The Blade Runners The Missing Link d. Kamala by DQ UWV TV Title: Terry Taylor © d. Buzz Sawyer Boot Camp for the UWF Tag Titles: The Fantastics © d. The Sheepherders Ted DiBiase d. Michael Hayes by DQ NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Ricky Morton Street Fight: Dusty Rhodes, Bill Watts, & Steve Williams d. Ivan & Nikita Koloff, & Kortsia Korchenko UWF @ Springfield, MO – July 4, 1986 (3,000) Chavo Guerrero d. Rick Steiner One Man Gang d. Jeff Gaylord John Tatum d. Brett Sawyer Bill Watts d. Sting Bill Watts d. Eddie Gilbert Terry Gordy d. Terry Taylor Hacksaw Duggan & Bill Watts d. Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts UWF @ Little Rock, AR – Barton Coliseum – July 5, 1986 (2,000) Gary Young d. Gustavo Mendoza Sting d. Ken Massey The Missing Link d. Jack Victory Koko Ware d. Kamala by DQ Bill Watts d. Buddy Roberts The Fantastics d. The Sheepherders UWF @ Donaldsonville, LA – July 17, 1986 (3,300) Brett Sawyer d. Gustavo Mendoza Sonny King d. The Libyan The Missing Link d. Jack Victory by DQ The Fantastics d. Gustavo Mendoza & Jack Victory JCP/UWF @ Dallas, TX – Reunion Arena – July 27, 1986 (7,500) Sting d. Brett Sawyer Koko Ware d. Gustavo Mendoza One Man Gang d. Jeff Gaylord Chavo Guerrero d. Rick Steiner The Rock n Roll Express fought The Midnight Express to a draw Terry Taylor d. Eddie Gilbert Magnum TA d. Baron Von Raschke Battle Royal won by Missing Link Hacksaw Duggan d. Kamala by DQ NWA World Heavyweight Title: Dusty Rhodes © d. Ric Flair The Road Warriors & Bill Watts d. The Fabulous Freebirds by DQ UWF @ Jackson, MS – August 28, 1986 (2,000) Joe Savoldi d. The Libyan Chavo Guerrero d. Gustavo Mendoza The Missing Link & Terry Taylor d. John Tatum & Jack Victory The Fantastics d. Eddie Gilbert & Sting Steve Williams d. Buddy Roberts Hacksaw Duggan d. One Man Gang by countout Ted DiBiase d. Michael Hayes by DQ UWF @ Houston, TX – Sam Houston Coliseum – September 5, 1986 (5,000) Joe Savoldi d. The Libyan Ted DiBiase & Chavo Guerrero d. Rick Steiner & Jack Victory UWF TV Title: Terry Taylor © d. One Man Gang by DQ UWF Tag Titles: The Fantastics fought Eddie Gilbert & Sting to a draw The Missing Link & Dark Journey d. John Tatum & Missy Hyatt Steel Cage: Steve Williams d. Buddy Roberts UWF @ Memphis, TN – Mid-South Coliseum – October 3, 1986 (4,500) Art Crews d. Jeff Gaylord Iceman Parsons d. Buddy Roberts Terry Taylor d. Michael Hayes The Missing Link & Dark Journey d. Jack Victory & Missy Hyatt Terry Gordy fought Steve Williams to a draw Battle Royal won by Iceman Parsons UWF @ New Orleans, LA – Superdome – November 27, 1986 (13,000) Jeff Gaylord d. Art Crews Gary Young d. The Libyan Angel of Death d. Ken Massey UWF Tag Titles: Leroy Brown & Wild Bill Irwin © d. Joe Savoldi & Gary Young Iceman Parsons d. Gustavo Mendoza Chavo Guerrero d. Sting by DQ The Missing Link d. Rick Steiner The Fantastics d. Mike George & Jack Victory UWF TV Title: Savannah Jack © d. Buddy Roberts by forfeit UWF Heavyweight Title: Hacksaw Duggan d. One Man Gang © by DQ 2 Ring Battle Royal won by One Man Gang Barbed Wire Steel Cage: Terry Taylor d. Buddy Roberts Steel Cage: Steve Williams d. Michael Hayes (these matches were at the same time with one cage on top of the other) UWF @ Fort Worth, TX – Cowtown Coliseum – December 27, 1986 (1,900) Jack Victory d. Gary Young Iceman Parsons d. Sting by DQ Terry Gordy d. Mike Reed Chavo Guerrero d. Mike George by DQ UWF Tag Titles: Hacksaw Duggan & Terry Taylor d. Leroy Brown & Bill Irwin © Eli the Eliminator d. Mike Reed Hacksaw Duggan & Terry Taylor d. Mike George & Jack Victory Sting d. Ron Ellis #1 Contender Match for the UWF Heavyweight Title: Terry Gordy battled Steve Williams to a no contest I Quit Battle Royal won by Hacksaw Duggan UWF @ Waco, TX – December 28, 1986 (550) Chavo Guerrero d. Jack Victory Sting d. Gary Young Mike George fought Iceman Parsons to a draw Dark Journey d. Missy Hyatt Terry Taylor d. Terry Gordy by DQ UWF Tag Titles: Hacksaw Duggan & Terry Taylor © d. Leroy Brown & Bill Irwin UWF @ Kansas City, MO – Kemper Arena – January 12, 1987 (6,000) Bill Irwin d. Gary Young The Missing Link d. Rick Steiner The Fantastics fought Mike George & Jack Victory to a draw Dark Journey d. Missy Hyatt Ted DiBiase, Terry Taylor, & Steve Williams d. The Fabulous Freebirds Chain Match: One Man Gang d. Hacksaw Duggan UWF @ Jackson, MS – January 23, 1987 (1,500) Gary Young d. Art Crews Eddie Gilbert d. Ken Massey Jack Victory d. Terry Taylor Iceman Parsons d. Mike George Iceman Parsons & Terry Taylor d. Mike George & Jack Victory UWF TV Title: Savannah Jack © d. Sting Loser Leaves Town Chain Match for the UWF Heavyweight Title: One Man Gang © d. Hacksaw Duggan UWF @ Houston, TX – Sam Houston Coliseum – January 23, 1987 (3,800) Ted DiBiase, The Missing Link, & Steve Williams battled Angel of Death, Michael Hayes, & Buddy Roberts to a DDQ Chavo Guerrero d. Buddy Roberts Steve Williams d. Angel of Death Glove on a Pole: Ted DiBiase d. Michael Hayes UWF @ Houston, TX – Sam Houston Coliseum – February 6, 1987 (4,000) Rick Steiner d. Mike Boyette Sam Houston d. Art Crews Sting d. Jeff Gaylord Angel of Death, Michael Hayes, & Buddy Roberts d. Chavo Guerrero, The Missing Link, & Terry Taylor Texas Death: Terry Gordy d. Steve Williams No DQ for the UWF Heavyweight Title: One Man Gang © d. Ted DiBiase UWF @ Lubbock, TX – February 16, 1987 (800) Sting d. Jeff Gaylord Gary Young d. Rick Steiner Sam Houston d. Mike George Chris Adams d. Mike Boyette Ted DiBiase & Chavo Guerrero d. Eli the Eliminator & Wild Bill Irwin by countout Steve Williams d. Angel of Death Ted DiBiase d. One Man Gang by countout UWF @ Albuquerque, NM – Tingley Coliseum – February 24, 1987 (6,099) Angel of Death d. Gary Young Eddie Gilbert fought Sam Houston to a draw UWF Tag Titles: Chris Adams & Terry Taylor © d. Eli the Eliminator & Wild Bill Irwin UWF TV Title: Savannah Jack © d. Sting Chavo Guerrero & The Missing Link d. Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts Bunkhouse Brawl won by Ted DiBiase UWF Heavyweight Title: Ted DiBiase d. One Man Gang © by DQ UWF @ Memphis, TN – Mid-South Coliseum – February 26, 1987 (3,500) Eddie Gilbert vs. Sam Houston UWF TV Title: Savannah Jack © vs. The Super Ninja Penalty Box: Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts vs. The Missing Link & Terry Taylor UWF Heavyweight Title: One Man Gang © vs. Ted DiBiase UWF @ Dallas, TX – State Fair Park – March 7, 1987 (1,200) Angel of Death d. Gary Young UWF TV Title: Savannah Jack © d. Red Shadow The Viking d. Ken Massey UWF Tag Titles: Chris Adams & Eddie Gilbert © d. Iceman Parsons & Terry Taylor UWF Heavyweight Title: One Man Gang © battled Ted DiBiase to a double countout Bunkhouse Brawl won by Ted DiBiase UWF @ Kansas City, MO – Independence Arena – March 9, 1987 (1,800) Steve Cox d. Super Ninja Savannah Jack d. Angel of Death by DQ Wild Bill Irwin d. Gary Young UWF TV Title: Eddie Gilbert © fought Sam Houston to a draw UWF Heavyweight Title: One Man Gang © d. Ted DiBiase Chavo Guerrero & The Missing Link d. Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts UWF Tag Titles: Chris Adams & Terry Taylor © d. Eddie Gilbert & Iceman Parsons by DQ UWF @ Lubbock, TX – March 12, 1987 (1,000) Steve Cox d. Super Ninja Wild Bill Irwin d. Gary Young Sam Houston d. Angel of Death by DQ Savannah Jack d. Mike Boyette Chain Match: Ted DiBiase d. One Man Gang by DQ Ted DiBiase d. Skandor Akbar by DQ Penalty Box: Chavo Guerrero & The Missing Link d. Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts UWF @ Houston, TX – Sam Houston Coliseum – March 20, 1987 (7,000) Angel of Death d. Gary Young Sam Houston d. The Viking $15,000 Challenge: Wild Bill Irwin d. Mike Boyette & Jeff Raitz UWF Tag Titles: Chris Adams & Terry Taylor © battled Eddie Gilbert & Iceman Parsons to a double countout 2 Ring Battle Royal won by Chavo Guerrero UWF @ Fort Worth, TX – Cowtown Coliseum – March 21, 1987 (2,000) Steve Cox & Ted DiBiase d. Mike George & The Red Shadow Iceman Parsons d. Ron Sexton Sting d. George Weingroff UWF Tag Titles: Chris Adams & Terry Taylor © battled Angel of Death & Wild Bill Irwin to a no contest SR – Ted DiBiase: Terry Gordy fought One Man Gang to a draw UWF @ San Bernardino, CA – March 25, 1987 (206) Sam Houston d. Pistol Pete UWF Heavyweight Title: One Man Gang © d. Savannah Jack UWF Tag Titles: Chris Adams & Terry Taylor © d. Eddie Gilbert & Iceman Parsons Terry Gordy battled Steve Williams to a DDQ Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts d. Chavo Guerrero & The Missing Link UWF @ Stockton, CA – Civic Auditorium – March 26, 1987 (800) Angel of Death d. Red Demon Wild Bill Irwin d. Jerry Monti Chris Adams & Sam Houston fought Rick Steiner & Sting to a draw Savannah Jack d. Iceman Parsons by DQ UWF Heavyweight Title: One Man Gang © d. Terry Taylor Penalty Box: Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts d. Chavo Guerrero & The Missing Link Terry Gordy battled Steve Williams to a DDQ Bunkhouse Brawl won by Chavo Guerrero & Steve Williams UWF @ Los Angeles, CA – Olympic Auditorium – March 27, 1987 (2,000) Angel of Death d. Dick Anderson Wild Bill Irwin d. Tim Patterson Sam Houston d. Pistol Pete Chris Adams d. Jack Armstrong Savannah Jack d. Iceman Parsons by DQ Rick Steiner & Sting d. Mando Guerrero & ? UWF Heavyweight Title: One Man Gang © d. Terry Taylor Chavo Guerrero, The Missing Link, & Steve Williams d. The Fabulous Freebirds Bunkhouse Brawl won by Chavo Guerrero UWF @ Irvine, CA – March 28, 1987 (300) Angel of Death d. Pat Boulder Eddie Gilbert & Iceman Parsons fought Sam Houston & Savannah Jack to a draw Terry Gordy battled Wild Bill Irwin to a double countout UWF Tag Titles: Chris Adams & Terry Taylor © d. Rick Steiner & Sting UWF Heavyweight Title: Steve Williams d. One Man Gang © by DQ Penalty Box: Chavo Guerrero & The Missing Link d. Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts UWF @ Monroe, LA – Civic Center – April 2, 1987 (3,000) Handicap Match: Buzz Sawyer d. Ken Massey & Jeff Raitz Steve Cox & Steve Williams d. Angel of Death & Wild Bill Irwin by DQ Chavo Guerrero d. Mike Boyette Savannah Jack d. Gary Young by DQ Buzz Sawyer d. Mike Boyette Terry Taylor d. Gary Young by DQ Steve Williams d. Super Ninja UWF TV Title: Sam Houston d. Eddie Gilbert © by DQ UWF @ Chicago, IL – UIC Pavilion – April 8, 1987 (3,200) Chavo Guerrero d. Terminator Rigs The Viking d. Terminator Wolf The Missing Link d. The Terminator Savannah Jack d. Iceman Parsons UWF TV Title: Eddie Gilbert © d. Sam Houston by countout UWF Tag Titles: Chris Adams & Terry Taylor © d. Rick Steiner & Sting UWF Heavyweight Title: Steve Williams d. One Man Gang © by DQ The Fabulous Freebirds d. Angel of Death, Bill Irwin, & The Viking UWF @ Minneapolis, MN – Met Center – April 10, 1987 (750) The Terminators d. The Top Guns Chavo Guerrero d. Terminator Wolf The Missing Link d. Texas Jack Chris Adams (subbing for Savannah Jack) d. Iceman Parsons by countout UWF Tag Titles: Chris Adams & Terry Taylor © d. Rick Steiner & Sting UWF TV Title: Eddie Gilbert © d. Sam Houston UWF Heavyweight Title: Steve Williams d. One Man Gang © by DQ The Fabulous Freebirds d. Angel of Death, Bill Irwin, & The Viking UWF @ New Orleans, LA – Superdome – April 11, 1987 (3,000) Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts d. Chavo Guerrero & The Missing Link UWF TV Title: Eddie Gilbert © d. Sam Houston by countout UWF Tag Titles: Chris Adams & Terry Taylor © d. Rick Steiner & Sting UWF Heavyweight Title: Steve Williams d. One Man Gang © by DQ The Fabulous Freebirds d. Angel of Death, Bill Irwin, & The Viking UWF @ Dallas, TX – April 14, 1987 (350) Mike George d. Jeff Raitz Steve Cox d. Super Ninja Sam Houston & Nicola Roberts d. Buddy Roberts & Sunshine by countout Gary Young d. Chavo Guerrero by DQ Street Fight: Savannah Jack d. Iceman Parsons UWF TV Title: Eddie Gilbert © d. Sam Houston UWF Heavyweight Title: Steve Williams d. One Man Gang © by DQ UWF Tag Titles: Rick Steiner & Sting © d. Chris Adams & Terry Taylor The Fabulous Freebirds d. Angel of Death, Wild Bill Irwin, & The Viking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 I'm watching the first 11 episodes of the Jerry Lawler Show from 1983 and I'm wondering, how many episodes exist on video? I know of some from 85 and 87. I would love to see if any exist from when he was a heel in 89/90. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Thanks for posting those figures Kris. Saved me a lot of work I was planning on looking through old Observers. Without doing any detailed analysis straight away, I have a few initial thoughts. I'm mainly looking at the Superdome dates here and then expanding to look at other towns as we move on: - Shit! They were doing 20,000+ at the Superdome regularly in 84. That really does beg the question of why JYD wasn't on that list of top draws in the 80s. The benchmark was 10,000+ shows right? I don't understand why JYD isn't on that list. - Taking nothing else into account, JYD seems to be adding as a bare minimum 8,000+ fans through the gates, if not more. The typical New Orleans crowd seems to be about 6,000 on a bad night, 10,000 on a good night. With JYD on the card this almost doubles. This says, more than anything, that Watts's basic product catered to "a core"audience in that region that could get a crowd of 10,000. Who are the other 8 to 10,0000 that JYD is pulling in then? They have to be casuals. We all know that these are the black fans that Watts always talks about, but make no mistake, they aren't black hardcores or even necessarily "wresting fans", they are casuals. This is the definition of being a "draw" -- someone, like Hogan, who could reach beyond the typical wrestling audience to get more people to come. JYD was a draw in this sense and there is no doubt at all about that. - Ergo, the loss of JYD hurt Watts in the sense that he no longer had this throng of casual fans to count on. He was back to his core audience. - However, this core audience wasn't small. We can see from 1985 that 9,500 still turned up for DiBiase vs. Duggan. And 15,000 people turned up if the NWA Champ was in town. Gates were down from JYD 84 levels, but it would be a pretty harsh readaing of the situation to say that things were going disasterously for Watts here. Crockett would have been happy with those numbers in 1985. 8,000 people for DiBiase / Williams vs. Gordy / Duggan is not bad at all. - By 1986, things had dropped off A BIT. 7,200 in the middle of the year is not a good performance for a card with Flair, DiBiase, Dusty, Williams, Michael Hayes and Bill Watts himself on it. That was probably a disappointing night for them. But look at November! Back up to 13,000. I am pretty sure that when Terry Taylor said "we were roaring", he was thinking about nights like that. That's a show with Williams vs. Hayes on top with Taylor vs. Buddy Roberts and Duggan vs. OMG underneath. What does that say? It means that even in late 1986, right in the midst of the oil glut, the company was still drawing a reasonable crowd and there is no Flair or other special attraction there to artificially inflate the gate. That's 13,000 people who've turned up to see people like Terry Taylor and Dr. Death. Taking things into perspective, that's a VERY impressive figure for that timeframe. As I said, Crockett would have LOVED to get 13,000 in New Orleans at this time. - Then in 1987, a few things seem to happen: 1. The numbers drop off significantly. The Superdome is down to 3,000. Some horrible numbers in towns around the place. 2. But look at where they were going! For some reason in 1987, UWF starts wandering around the country. What were they doing in LA and the mini tour around Cali? Those towns were DEAD and the numbers show that. But what they hell were they doing there in the first place? Why this incursion into Chicago? Minneapolis now?! Any particular reason to take a sojourn into Verne country? The numbers show that this was not a good idea. 3. The card starts to thin out and we get some real under-cardy types showing up in the main event. Bill Irwin? Angel of Death? The Viking? Steve Williams vs. One Man Gang is not a very strong looking title picture either. You've gone from DiBiase and Duggan to, let's face it, a bunch of guys who aren't going to be winning you any new fans and who might even turn away your existing ones. 4. Despite all this -- in core Watts country, New Orleans aside -- the numbers are still not disasterous in 1987. DiBiase vs. OMG in Albuquerque still did over 6,000. The Houston Show headlined by a battle royal (where "wrestling" is the star) over 6,000. Not world beating by any means, but COMPARABLE with the sort of numbers they were drawing in those towns in 84-5. Down a bit, but it's not doomsday. - All of which leads to one conclusion for 1987: Watt's over-expanded. He was running towns he shouldn't have been running and neglecting his core market. 206 fans looks AWFUL on paper as you are skimming these results but then you realise that they were in San Bernardino, CA. Clearly, there was some push to take the West Coast that went badly wrong. Do you have any idea how far away that is from Oklahoma? I do, because I drove it on Route 66 and it took us the best part of 3 weeks to get there. - All of that points to one more thing: escalating costs. How were they getting the rings and all the wrestlers from Fort Worth to fucking California in 2 days? How were they running a week of dates in Cali and then ending up in Chicago (which we know from the song is "3,000 miles all the way")? Those shows didn't draw either (why would they so far outside of Watts country?), but it doesn't take a genius to work out how the costs of operating such a lunatic plan would hurt a company. ------------------- JvK's conclusions on the decline of Mid-South: 1. JYD leaving is an undeniable factor, but it's far from being the CAUSE of the decline. Rather, JYD was a temporary boost who was able to draw in a ton of casual fans. Those casual fans were never going to "stay" as it were. We've seen from history, casual fans don't stick around more than a couple of years. If JYD was massive with the casual black population of Louisannia, I would bet my bottom dollar that within a couple of years the fad would have faded away -- like yo-yos, or any other craze. This is actually borne out by the fact that neither WWF not WCW were able to draw 20,000+ fans with JYD in Nola. This is important because it is possible to overstate JYD's value to Watts here. He was a BONUS. Watts's core business model didn't depend on JYD being there for success. Yes, he made LOTS more money with JYD than without, but be under no illusions: it was a temporary boon, a social phenomena. 2a. One you take into account that JYD was artificially inflating the crowds with legions of casual black fans, gates didn't really suffer in 1985 or 1986, they were simply regressing to the mean. That is, after a boom, they were returning to "normal levels" for a wrestling promotion in that area. This in itself was not a problem for Watts. He was still doing decent gates, which means: 2b. Terry Taylor was, at least partly, justified in saying they were still drawing. He was obviously thinking about shows like the November 86 Superdome Show where they still had 13,000. To put this into context, WCW Nitro in January 1997 -- at the height of Monday Night Wars -- drew only 10,000 at the Superdome. Which is to say that 13,000 shouldn't be compared negatively to the 21,000 the JYD craze was drawing -- it's a very healthy number. 3. Costs definitely rose. Travel and transportation alone must have been eating a huge chunk out of 87 profits. Which is because ... 4. The decision to expand was a mistake. The 86 and even some of the 87 numbers show that in traditional Watts country, the company could still draw decent crowds. I don't really see the point of trying to break into LA, Chicago or Minneapolis when you know you can rely on 6,000+ in Tulsa, OKC, and Houston. This was a business error on Watts's part. 5. New Orleans looks like it was dead in 1987. 13,000 people turned up in November 86 and only 3,000 people are coming just a few months later? Why? It seems odd to blame the booking or the cards because we've seen that 6,000+ people are still turning up to the other key towns. Something ELSE must have been up in New Orelans that year. Could this be an economic downturn? Could this be the point where we see the oil glut affecting the gates? We might look at the card and look at the angles leading into it -- but LOOK there's a show headlined by Chavo Gurrerro winning a battle royale drawing 6,000 down the road!! Booking has obviously got little to do with the numbers here. On this occassion Occam's Razor is pointing towards an external factor, and we know that is oil. Bottomline: From the original theories on the table, we can categorise them into four groups: 1. Hotshotting and / or the product wasn't drawing (DiBiase, Loss, jdw) 2. There was an oil glut that killed business (Watts) 3. We were drawing well, people were coming to the shows, but costs spiralled out of control (Taylor) 4. JYD left (various) Looking at everything, I feel that number 3 there is getting towards the fuller picture, but 2 and 4 certainly need to be taken into account as part of an explanation that can't really be summed up in a single point. This is not to say that DiBiase, Loss and jdw were entirely wrong either though -- the cards in 87 are noticeably thinner than the 85-6 cards. Also, you get the impression that certain guys by that stage (DiBiase, Duggan, even Williams) had already been through everything and more than once. We might attribute the slight drop off from the typical crowds of 7,000-8,000 in 85-6 to the 6,000-type crowds we see in 87. The oil theory can't be dismissed entirely. There's no way bad booking alone can account for a drop off from 13,000 to 3,000 in less than a year in New Orelans -- must have been the economy. That was such an important city for Watts historically, that I can see its significance being magnified many times in his mind. It looks like he relied on Superdome shows as a core revenue stream. Let's say Watts has a bad quarter -- historically, he would have been able to make some of that back at the Superdome. In 1987, he had his worst Superdome show ever and he put 2 and 2 together. It doesn't tell the full story though. It seems to me that the most compelling story here is the decision to try to expand. This actually pins the blame squarely on Watts's shoulders -- not Ken Mantell's -- Watts's. He decided to make moves into California, Chicago and AWA land. You can see it was a total disaster, not only in terms of crowds, but also in terms of how much that must have cost him. I would be willing to say that if he'd concentrated on his core markets instead of doing that in 1987, he probably could have seen the year through and not sold up to Crockett. The problem wasn't the product (even if it did have problems), the problem wasn't the oil (even if this was an obstacle, it wasn't insurmountable), the problem was business strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Another possibility for the complete collapse of the New Orleans attendance figures as compared to their other key cities: maybe something happened in New Orleans to kill the town? My guess would be that this idea on the previous show that drew 13,000: Barbed Wire Steel Cage: Terry Taylor d. Buddy Roberts Steel Cage: Steve Williams d. Michael Hayes (these matches were at the same time with one cage on top of the other) was a real disaster of a match and really turned off the fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 According to Meltzer what killed New Orleans was JYD dropping the North American title to Mr. Wrestling II. II was coming off a hot heel turn on Magnum but was still perceived as being an old man (which he was)--the live fans didn't seem to pick up on the fact that II had loaded his kneepad, and when it put JYD down fans were convinced that he had "taken a dive" in the sleaziest, most fixed-boxing-match way possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Also, I think II didn't come close to making even the faintest contact with the knee lift, and JYD sold it anyway, which was for a lot of fans either business exposing or proof JYD took a dive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 I can accept the Wrestling II stuff as part of the explanation for why the Superdome shows went from 21,000 to 10,000-15,000 after JYD left (although JYD leaving itself would have to account for the bulk of that). I don't accept that it was the reason they went from drawing 13,000 in November 1986 to just 3,000 in 1987. I also find it hard to accept the plausibility of goc's explanation. Can a bad card reduce a crowd by 10,000 people? Can people point to other instances in history when a card was so bad that it stopped 10,000 regular fans from attending the next show? As I said, the oil explanation seems simpler. Although I guess you might say that towns like Tulsa might have been affected by oil too, but my understanding is that Oklahoma is more of an agricultural state than an oil state. When I think of oil, I think of Texas and Louisiana. I'm sure OK does have oil but how reliant is their economy on it overall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 I would be cautious on reading too much into the numbers above. That's not because of Kris, but it's due to the lack of even reasonably close to full cards. Look just at New Orleans: for 1986 it's just the Super Domes, while in 1984 there are a few non-Dome cards. You can't compare Super Dome shows to non-Super Dome shows, but those non-Dome shows are also important indicators of the health of the promotion. They simply tell us what we know, the single thing everyone involved agrees to: business went down in 1985 relative to 1984, and continued to slide over time. Not every card was an utter bomb, but the business trend was a decline year over year into 1985, then into 1986, and into 1987. I wouldn't put much on expansion. The company was already falling off badly when Watts made his short experiment to promote outside the territory. Those didn't break him, but instead convinced him that it was time to get out if he could find someone to buy him out. Which he did. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocSarpolis Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 In a completely unrelated, and all together new 'little question'..... I'm trying to isolate exactly which dates/shows during the Great American Bash tours were indeed 'Bash' shows as opposed to just TV tapings that were not considered 'Bash' tour events. Cornette's scrapbook is a great resource for most years, but not in '91 and '92. Also, this page has been a great resource: http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/bashtours.htm But it still doesn't make a clear distinction between which shows were and were not 'Bash' events. I've taken the list of dates from that page and cross referenced them with the segments on WCW TV shows at the time when they take a break to promote upcoming shows and isolated what were being promoted as part of the 'Great American Bash On Tour', but there are still some dates that I can't determine if they were or were not part of the tour. For example, for 1992, I've confirmed that these dates were promoted as Bash tour stops: 7/1, 7/4, 7/5, 7/9, 7/10, 7/11, 7/12, 7/16, 7/18, 7/19, 7/20, 7/23, 7/24, 7/25, 7/26, 7/30, 8/6, 8/8, 8/9, 8/11, 8/13, 8/14, 8/15, 8/16 I'm guessing that anything at 'Center Stage' was probably not considered part of the Bash, but there are still some dates that I'm not sure of. Most notably, 8/2/92 at the Arena in Baltimore. I'm most curious about this show because it was a TV taping. I'm trying to isolate and locate all of the Bash stuff that made tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 One thing that gets brought up in conversations about Watts & Continental were that when they moved their TV from the studio environment to live from the house shows it killed those towns in particular. Birmingham went down big time because their card was being telecast every week with most of the main events being on the air. Tulsa & OKC while we don't have the numbers went through the same thing in 1986 where they started out strong but the more TV the less they came. If these promotions would've been smarter they would've went the JCP route and taped in more locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 What a coincidence from today's WON update --Yesterday was the 29th anniversary of a match I used to hear about all the time. Ernie Ladd told Bill Watts that he should never beat JYD in New Orleans. JYD was the biggest draw the city ever had as a pro wrestler, and 29 years ago yesterday, to get heat, the finish was supposed to have Mr. Wrestling II, turning heel, load his kneepad and pin JYD after a knee lift. Unfortunately working wasn't JYD's suit and he didn't bend over to take the knee, so it looked really bad with him standing up. The crowd didn't buy the finish and while there were big crowds in New Orleans after that date, those in Mid South Wrestling point to that night as when wrestling stopped being hot in the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 Vince eventually got to that rout, but it took a while. Championship Wrestling had been done in Allentown for ages, while All-Star had been done in Hamburg. Championship got eventually transitioned to Poughkeepsie in the second half of 1984, which was its home until 1986. All-Star got transitioned in 1984 to Ontario (Hamilton, London, Brantford, even one taping in Etobicoke), which was its home until 1986. With the rebranding as Superstars and Challenge, they went on the road. Vince of course was doing squashes and a months worth of TV at a taping, while JCP was doing a squash/non-squash mix with World Wide and their other show (I forget the name of it). Watts was doing a mix of squash/non-squash as well, but as he expanded his TV network he put on bigger matches. Watts still had non-TV "main events" that we didn't get to see. I get why you would want to run your tapings at a limited number of places: from a cost perspective, it's cheaper to have a "home base" for taping. You keep your equipment there, and you probably even use a lot of local people for elements of your crew. Here's the WWF's old set up: The driving distance from Hamburg to Allentown is 28 miles / 45 km It's really easy to do two nights of tapings, back to back, but getting the crew (both wrestling crew and production crew) together. It's also easy in the sense that everyone in the circuit knows that ones a month they'll be making their Allentown/Hamburg swing. Watts doing it in a standard set of towns was pretty common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 On the JYD-II stuff, we'd probably need to go back deeper on the results to look at 1983 into 1984 on New Orleans to see how it compares. It's simply not evident on the Dome shows: March 12, 1984: Mr. Wrestling II over JYD in New Orleans April 7, 1984 Superdome - 23,000 ($176,000) North American Title: Mr. Wrestling II vs Magnum TA The Last Stampede: Stagger Lee (Junkyard Dog) & Bill Watts vs The Midnight Express (MS Tag Champs) June 16, 1984 Superdome - 21,700 ($166,000) No DQ for the Mid-South Tag Titles: The Midnight Express vs The Rock n Roll Express No DQ for the North American Title: Magnum TA vs Ted DiBiase Ghetto Street Fight: Junkyard Dog d. Butch Reed August 24, 1984 Superdome - 21,000 ($165,000) North American Title: Magnum TA vs Butch Reed The Midnight Express (MS Tag Champs) vs Dusty Rhodes & Sonny King (subbing for JYD) NWA World Title: Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich to a DDQ My recollection from the Cornette book is that he credited that gate to JYD drawing while folks didn't quite know he was gone. WWF @ St. Louis, MO - Kiel Auditorium - August 10, 1984 Television taping - featured Vince McMahon on commentary: Georgia Championship Wrestling - 8/18/84: The Junkyard Dog pinned Max Blue at 4:17 with the powerslam (JYD's debut) He'd just jumped to the WWF. I don't really think Flair-Kerry was *that* big of a draw in Mid South to be the reason they still held onto 21K fans that show. Anyway, JYD had been the part of two big draws prior to that. Obviously Watts had a ton to do with the Last Stampede drawing, but JYD was also the "right" partner for such a thing... and don't doubt that Watts didn't know that at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 jdw, even if you don't agree with my overall conclusion, what do you make of my reading of JYD as a draw? That he was essentially a social phenomenon in that region drawing in casual fans mostly from the black community. That those gates of 21,000 at the Superdome were only ever going to be a temporary boost while JYD was "in" like yo-yos or tamagotchis. In other words, the extra tickets JYD was bringing in were being bought by fairweather fans. Watts couldn't have relied on them in the long term and 1985 wasn't a decline but "regression to the mean". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 In a completely unrelated, and all together new 'little question'..... I'm trying to isolate exactly which dates/shows during the Great American Bash tours were indeed 'Bash' shows as opposed to just TV tapings that were not considered 'Bash' tour events. Cornette's scrapbook is a great resource for most years, but not in '91 and '92. Also, this page has been a great resource: http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/bashtours.htm But it still doesn't make a clear distinction between which shows were and were not 'Bash' events. I've taken the list of dates from that page and cross referenced them with the segments on WCW TV shows at the time when they take a break to promote upcoming shows and isolated what were being promoted as part of the 'Great American Bash On Tour', but there are still some dates that I can't determine if they were or were not part of the tour. For example, for 1992, I've confirmed that these dates were promoted as Bash tour stops: 7/1, 7/4, 7/5, 7/9, 7/10, 7/11, 7/12, 7/16, 7/18, 7/19, 7/20, 7/23, 7/24, 7/25, 7/26, 7/30, 8/6, 8/8, 8/9, 8/11, 8/13, 8/14, 8/15, 8/16 I'm guessing that anything at 'Center Stage' was probably not considered part of the Bash, but there are still some dates that I'm not sure of. Most notably, 8/2/92 at the Arena in Baltimore. I'm most curious about this show because it was a TV taping. I'm trying to isolate and locate all of the Bash stuff that made tape. Graham is usually really good, but I would worry about that page. 1986 is quite messed up. It was a much more limited series, rather than every card in July. This is probably quite a bit closer for 1986: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_American_Bash#1986 Those would be the correct 13 cards. 1987 was expanded, and 1988 dragged all the way to the August show in Los Angeles. It's a hard thing to nail down. The WCW TV items promoting events that you mentioned are probably the best things to look at for 1987-88. After that... who knows. :/ John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocSarpolis Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 In a completely unrelated, and all together new 'little question'..... I'm trying to isolate exactly which dates/shows during the Great American Bash tours were indeed 'Bash' shows as opposed to just TV tapings that were not considered 'Bash' tour events. Cornette's scrapbook is a great resource for most years, but not in '91 and '92. Also, this page has been a great resource: http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/bashtours.htm But it still doesn't make a clear distinction between which shows were and were not 'Bash' events. I've taken the list of dates from that page and cross referenced them with the segments on WCW TV shows at the time when they take a break to promote upcoming shows and isolated what were being promoted as part of the 'Great American Bash On Tour', but there are still some dates that I can't determine if they were or were not part of the tour. For example, for 1992, I've confirmed that these dates were promoted as Bash tour stops: 7/1, 7/4, 7/5, 7/9, 7/10, 7/11, 7/12, 7/16, 7/18, 7/19, 7/20, 7/23, 7/24, 7/25, 7/26, 7/30, 8/6, 8/8, 8/9, 8/11, 8/13, 8/14, 8/15, 8/16 I'm guessing that anything at 'Center Stage' was probably not considered part of the Bash, but there are still some dates that I'm not sure of. Most notably, 8/2/92 at the Arena in Baltimore. I'm most curious about this show because it was a TV taping. I'm trying to isolate and locate all of the Bash stuff that made tape. Graham is usually really good, but I would worry about that page. 1986 is quite messed up. It was a much more limited series, rather than every card in July. This is probably quite a bit closer for 1986: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_American_Bash#1986 Those would be the correct 13 cards. 1987 was expanded, and 1988 dragged all the way to the August show in Los Angeles. It's a hard thing to nail down. The WCW TV items promoting events that you mentioned are probably the best things to look at for 1987-88. After that... who knows. :/ John Thanks John. I appreciate that. Yeah, those 1992 dates have been driving me nuts. Making my way through the various TV shows of the time (Saturday Night, Main Event, Worldwide) and trying to determine if some of the matches shown on TV are from Bash promoted events, or if they're all just from TV tapings that were not promoted as Bash events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 13, 2013 Report Share Posted March 13, 2013 jdw, even if you don't agree with my overall conclusion, what do you make of my reading of JYD as a draw? That he was essentially a social phenomenon in that region drawing in casual fans mostly from the black community. That those gates of 21,000 at the Superdome were only ever going to be a temporary boost while JYD was "in" like yo-yos or tamagotchis. In other words, the extra tickets JYD was bringing in were being bought by fairweather fans. Watts couldn't have relied on them in the long term and 1985 wasn't a decline but "regression to the mean". I think there's been a lot of talk about JYD here on PWO. My guess is that Dylan and others have done a lot over in the HOF thread, if not other places. They've put a lot of thought into it in the past, and can probably point you in the direction of what they've written in the past. As far as "fair weather fans", I'm not sure where that comes from. One has to ponder at which point Dog stopped being a "hot local star" and became the "Bruno of New Orleans": August 2, 1980 in New Orleans, LA The Superdome drawing 30,000 ($183,000) Junkyard Dog beat Michael Hayes (11:20) in a "steel cage dog collar" match. April 18, 1981 in New Orleans, LA The Superdome drawing 22,000 Junkyard Dog & Dick Murdoch beat Michael Hayes & Terry Gordy (9:00). Junkyard Dog & Dick Murdoch beat Ernie Ladd & Leroy Brown (6:00). The Grappler & Super Destroyer beat Junkyard Dog & Dick Murdoch (8:00) to win the vacant Mid-South Tag Title when Grappler pinned JYD July 4, 1981 in New Orleans, LA The Superdome drawing 18,000 Mid-South Tag Champs Dick Murdoch & Junkyard Dog beat The Wild Samoans Afa & Sika (21:00). Junkyard Dog beat Paul Orndorff (5:30) in a "lights out" match. November 26, 1981 in New Orleans, LA The Superdome drawing 18,000 Mid-South Tag Champs Junkyard Dog & Mike George beat Paul Orndorff & Bob Orton, Jr. (46:00). July 7, 1982 in New Orleans, LA The Superdome drawing 22,800 Mid-South North American Champ Ted DiBiase DDQ Junkyard Dog. Mid-South Tag Champs Mr. Olympia & Junkyard Dog beat John Studd & The Super Destroyer. November 25, 1982 in New Orleans, LA The Superdome drawing 15,000 Stagger Lee (Junkyard Dog) beat Ted DiBiase to win the Mid-South North American Title. April 16, 1983 in New Orleans, LA The Superdome drawing 21,400 Junkyard Dog pinned Mr. Olympia in a "steel cage" match to win the held-up Mid-South North American Title. November 19, 1983 in New Orleans, LA The Superdome drawing 8,000 Mid-South North American Champ Junkyard Dog beat Butch Reed Note: this always has looked odd, in the sense there must be a reason it dropped to that degree relative to other shows in this 4+ year stretch. The two matched up to draw big again in 1985. April 7, 1984 in New Orleans, LA The Superdome drawing 23,000 ($176,000) Stagger Lee (Junkyard Dog) & Bill Watts wrestled The Midnight Express (Eaton & Condrey) in a "lights out" match. June 16, 1984 in New Orleans, LA The Superdome drawing 21,700 ($166,000) Junkyard Dog pinned Butch Reed in a "ghetto street fight." Those are just the ones that have data listed over at prowrestlinghistory.com. There are other cards, like the July 16, 1983 card where JYD-Reed and Duggan-Ted were the co-mains where data isn't given. He was a big draw in 1980... 1981... 1982... 1983... 1984... and then jumped to the WWF while still hot. It's a bit like trying to pass away Backlund or Bruno drawing in MSG for four years as some fad. If business goes down after them, it tends to indicate that they were Draws rather than Fads. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 November 19, 1983 in New Orleans, LA The Superdome drawing 8,000 Mid-South North American Champ Junkyard Dog beat Butch Reed Note: this always has looked odd, in the sense there must be a reason it dropped to that degree relative to other shows in this 4+ year stretch. The two matched up to draw big again in 1985. My total shot in the dark guess would be that maybe fans didn't buy Reed as a challenger yet. This would have been very shortly after his heel turn, and during his initial babyface run he wasn't put over that strongly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 I also find it hard to accept the plausibility of goc's explanation. Can a bad card reduce a crowd by 10,000 people? Can people point to other instances in history when a card was so bad that it stopped 10,000 regular fans from attending the next show? As I said, the oil explanation seems simpler. Although I guess you might say that towns like Tulsa might have been affected by oil too, but my understanding is that Oklahoma is more of an agricultural state than an oil state. When I think of oil, I think of Texas and Louisiana. I'm sure OK does have oil but how reliant is their economy on it overall?I don't know if it's fair to say those were "10,000 regular fans" though. That 13,000 figure is pretty high compared to the other 1986 numbers. In June they drew 7,200 for a card that on paper looks better than the November show that drew 13,000. The November show is heavily gimmicked with a Two Ring Battle Royal in the semi-main and the main event being the stacked cage, two matches at a time thing. I think it's a deal where people are really interested in the idea, decide to go see the show and then realize the execution can't match the idea. And they get turned off by feeling like the main event that the were really pumped for turns out to be a dud. So they skip the next show. There is no show after that for us to see if the number could rebound or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 From the original theories on the table, we can categorise them into four groups: 1. Hotshotting and / or the product wasn't drawing (DiBiase, Loss, jdw) 2. There was an oil glut that killed business (Watts) 3. We were drawing well, people were coming to the shows, but costs spiralled out of control (Taylor) 4. JYD left (various) Looking at everything, I feel that number 3 there is getting towards the fuller picture, but 2 and 4 certainly need to be taken into account as part of an explanation that can't really be summed up in a single point. This is not to say that DiBiase, Loss and jdw were entirely wrong either though -- the cards in 87 are noticeably thinner than the 85-6 cards. Also, you get the impression that certain guys by that stage (DiBiase, Duggan, even Williams) had already been through everything and more than once. We might attribute the slight drop off from the typical crowds of 7,000-8,000 in 85-6 to the 6,000-type crowds we see in 87. The oil theory can't be dismissed entirely. There's no way bad booking alone can account for a drop off from 13,000 to 3,000 in less than a year in New Orelans -- must have been the economy. That was such an important city for Watts historically, that I can see its significance being magnified many times in his mind. It looks like he relied on Superdome shows as a core revenue stream. Let's say Watts has a bad quarter -- historically, he would have been able to make some of that back at the Superdome. In 1987, he had his worst Superdome show ever and he put 2 and 2 together. It doesn't tell the full story though. It seems to me that the most compelling story here is the decision to try to expand. This actually pins the blame squarely on Watts's shoulders -- not Ken Mantell's -- Watts's. He decided to make moves into California, Chicago and AWA land. You can see it was a total disaster, not only in terms of crowds, but also in terms of how much that must have cost him. I would be willing to say that if he'd concentrated on his core markets instead of doing that in 1987, he probably could have seen the year through and not sold up to Crockett. The problem wasn't the product (even if it did have problems), the problem wasn't the oil (even if this was an obstacle, it wasn't insurmountable), the problem was business strategy. To me the evidence points most to theory #1. The first few Superdome cards listed are absolutely loaded. R&R vs. MX all over the place, NWA title matches, JYD vs. Butch Reed in a ghetto street fight, prime Jake Roberts, prime Duggan, prime DiBiase, Steve Williams. It goes on and on. I'd pay to see those cards. The last card has some strong performers for sure, but I don't think there's a single match where I find both participants compelling. And the freebirds wrestling twice? I'm not even sure I'd watch that card for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Two things I would note: 1. I don't think "regression to mean" is the way you can look at the attendance fall after Dog because we don't have a lot of attendance figures pre-Dog in this thread. What we do know is that the prior to JYD, New Orleans was widely considered to be a completely dead wrestling town. My guess is that the "mean" being regressed to would have been a lot lower than 10k based on pre-Dog numbers. This is something you hear from Watts, wrestlers, fans and historians. New Orleans was not a hot week-to-week wrestling town prior to the Dog - The Dog MADE New Orleans a hot wrestling town. In fact it's possible that at his height JYD was drawing more fans per year in New Orleans, than any other wrestler was in any other city in the world. They weren't all black fans either. Yes there was a huge base of support in the black community, but it transcended race. Dog was a sensation and it's likely that he would have still been drawing very well - especially in New Orleans - into 87 had he not left. Frankly JYD meant much more in terms of drawing power to Mid-South, than Hogan did in the AWA when he bolted, but that's not the narrative that gets spun. From 80-84 it's arguably that JYD was the biggest draw in the entire country, if not the world. We just don't tend to think of it that way because he's not a favorite of smart fans, he did it on a regional level and he doesn't have the "look" that we stereotypically associate with being a draw (yes, I'm going there and yes I do think it's a factor in how he is remembered historically). 2. Beyond the point about expansion that John made, the move for expansion was nearly universal at that point among the groups that were still around. Crockett had made the jump. The AWA was well out of there comfort zone by 85, doing dumbfuck shit like running Alaska and split crew dates that diluted an already thin roster with some guys working traditional loop towns and others on the East Coast. World Class had a syndicated network and tv that went well outside of their region. My view is that to varying degrees there was a feeling of "go national or die." Vince was going to go to war on their home turf, cable tv was there, so expansion was seen as a means of survival. Every town became a warzone and if you ceded a neighboring region or town to Vince, you were given away way too much. The domino theory of wrestling I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Two things I would note: 1. I don't think "regression to mean" is the way you can look at the attendance fall after Dog because we don't have a lot of attendance figures pre-Dog in this thread. What we do know is that the prior to JYD, New Orleans was widely considered to be a completely dead wrestling town. My guess is that the "mean" being regressed to would have been a lot lower than 10k based on pre-Dog numbers. This is something you hear from Watts, wrestlers, fans and historians. New Orleans was not a hot week-to-week wrestling town prior to the Dog - The Dog MADE New Orleans a hot wrestling town. In fact it's possible that at his height JYD was drawing more fans per year in New Orleans, than any other wrestler was in any other city in the world. They weren't all black fans either. Yes there was a huge base of support in the black community, but it transcended race. Dog was a sensation and it's likely that he would have still been drawing very well - especially in New Orleans - into 87 had he not left. Frankly JYD meant much more in terms of drawing power to Mid-South, than Hogan did in the AWA when he bolted, but that's not the narrative that gets spun. From 80-84 it's arguably that JYD was the biggest draw in the entire country, if not the world. We just don't tend to think of it that way because he's not a favorite of smart fans, he did it on a regional level and he doesn't have the "look" that we stereotypically associate with being a draw (yes, I'm going there and yes I do think it's a factor in how he is remembered historically). So, it's completely reasonable to speculate that if JYD was the phenomenon he was, that drew non hardcore fans to wrestling shows in New Orleans, then his leaving would eventually cause gates to drop. People probably stuck with going to shows for a bit, but when it became obvious to these fans that it was JYD they wanted, they stopped showing up. The AWA was well out of there comfort zone by 85, doing dumbfuck shit like running Alaska I love that story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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