Rob. Van. Dam.

[anarchistxx]

I remember watching RVD wrestle Jeff Hardy at Invasion 2001 and thinking he was going to be a megastar. He had an aura about him, a complete connection with the crowd, not to mention some incredible offense, a superstar air of arrogance and a willingness to take major bumps. He was ridiculously over for a few months, and probably the only guy who came out of that entire storyline looking good. It seemed a lock that they would hotshot the title belt on him at any point.

 

It was all downhill from there, unfortunately, and for the last ten years he has been coasting on the reputation he earned during his ECW run. I don't think I could name a memorable RVD match, promo or angle since 2001, and even though I haven't seen a ridiculous amount in that period it says a lot for where he has been as a worker. The Cena match was special because of the context and location, but objectively it isn't anything better than alright.

 

So is this a guy who was lazy and unmotivated, and wasted his talent? Or was he hamstrung by ten years of terrible booking that held him back from being the star he could have been?

 

I actually think it was more of the latter. I know is ECW work isn't fashionable in the slightest anymore but I love it - hot angles, fun matches, crazy spots, and he was indisputably the star of the company during this time. Nearly all my favourite parts of the promotion involve him, from the Bam Bam match, the incredible Lawler segment, matches with Sabu, tags with the Eliminators, the long TV title reign that everyone dug at the time. Even his promos were pretty good back then, they felt natural. Not seen nearly as much as Dylan but what I have seen has been awesome.

 

His WWF work in 2001 is very solid, very entertaining, and a prime example of crowd reaction enhancing something - a lot of it felt special because Van Dam felt special. The Austin/Angle/RVD triangle was very fun, and I still maintain that RVD/Hardy is one of the most underrated matches I have seen, pretty much the perfect example of that style and the perfect introduction of RVD to the promotion, feeding off the molten crowd.

 

I have a good idea of how this thread if going to go but I wanted to go to bat for Van Dam anyway - if he had won the World Title in 2001 he could have been a major star imo.

[Dylan Waco]

There were two Van Dam's in ECW.

 

Pre-Fonzy RVD was a lot of fun and at times very good. I think the Sabu matches are absolute dogshit for the most part and I don't care for the Elims matches either, but there are plenty of RVD matches during this era I like a good bit. What is notable about this era is that a lot of best matches are built around RVD taking insane bumps, rather than RVD doing stock spots.

 

Fonzy era RVD? Well he certainly had some good matches, even some great matches. But as a worker I thought he was far worse. Every match would go too long because he had to go through his extremely choreographed, Carrot Top, prop wrestling routine. Just tedious and annoying to watch.

 

Even in the WWE I thought his best matches where matches where he was on defensive as much or more than he was on offense

[El-P]

I don't see the strict separation between "two RVD" in ECW. The thing is, RVD hadn't developped his biggest signature spots nor his routine earlier on, but that doesn't mean he was a better wrestler. He was fresher in a sense that it seems he would throw out more random stuff and was less predictable. He was a totally chaotic worker doing some really bizarre looking spots with no ryhme or reason whatsoever, and it could be fun to watch in a spectacular trainwreck kind of way (like the Sabu matches, which I enjoy because of Sabu). One thing I agree with Dylan is that he was better on defense, which makes sense because he could be a great bumper and his offense looks like contrived shit most of the time (the guy is unable to throw a simple punch worth a damn). Once he found his routine he quickly got unbearable, because despite being spectacular athleticaly, he's just a shitty worker with an annoying character. So yeah, RVD was always bad. He's someone I really would be happy to never watch a match again. Jerry Lynn and Tracey Smothers gets major proprs from me for making me care about a RVD match at a point watching him was pretty much a complete drag (although Lynn did it while cattering to RVD's worst instinct and pushed them to their limits, while Tracey used his classic veteran skills)

[Guest Nell Santucci]

I largely lost interest in the WWE around 2002 when Brian Gerwitz started writing Raw is HHH. So I'm wondering how much blame does Gerwitz get for RVD's lack of motivation or RVD just not coming off as special? Many feel that HHH was instrumental in burying RVD. But I know even in 2007 that, when talking to casual fans, that RVD was often still in their top 5 favorite wrestlers list. When I watch his ECW matches, he has "star" written all over him. He could have been a huge draw with sufficient promotional backing.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I personally think he sucks, but believe he could have been a big, big star if they'd have run with him when he was really hot in 2001/2002. He was a different version of the anti-authority babyface, which by that time had become a pre-requisite for top faces in WWE.

 

My favourite match of his is probably the Summerslam 02 match with Benoit, where Benoit just picks him apart. I suppose that goes along with the 'better on defence' consensus that seems to be forming here.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

I personally think he sucks, but believe he could have been a big, big star if they'd have run with him when he was really hot in 2001/2002. He was a different version of the anti-authority babyface, which by that time had become a pre-requisite for top faces in WWE.

 

My favourite match of his is probably the Summerslam 02 match with Benoit, where Benoit just picks him apart. I suppose that goes along with the 'better on defence' consensus that seems to be forming here.

Yeah. RVD is at his best when he takes bumps from big moves. His flexibility and facials make the impact look Steamboat-like convincing.

[KB8]

I don't see the strict separation between "two RVD" in ECW. The thing is, RVD hadn't developped his biggest signature spots nor his routine earlier on, but that doesn't mean he was a better wrestler. He was fresher in a sense that it seems he would throw out more random stuff and was less predictable. He was a totally chaotic worker doing some really bizarre looking spots with no ryhme or reason whatsoever, and it could be fun to watch in a spectacular trainwreck kind of way (like the Sabu matches, which I enjoy because of Sabu). One thing I agree with Dylan is that he was better on defense, which makes sense because he could be a great bumper and his offense looks like contrived shit most of the time (the guy is unable to throw a simple punch worth a damn). Once he found his routine he quickly got unbearable, because despite being spectacular athleticaly, he's just a shitty worker with an annoying character. So yeah, RVD was always bad. He's someone I really would be happy to never watch a match again. Jerry Lynn and Tracey Smothers gets major proprs from me for making me care about a RVD match at a point watching him was pretty much a complete drag (although Lynn did it while cattering to RVD's worst instinct and pushed them to their limits, while Tracey used his classic veteran skills)

I'd probably agree with most of this. Guy was not afraid to take absolute lunatic bumps, and was far more enjoyable to me when he was fighting from the bottom (how were the Lesnar matches? I haven't seen them in years, but on paper they sound like they could at least be decent) since his offence was generally pretty rubbish. He'd throw a nasty looking kick now and again, though.

 

Going through the '96 yearbook and watching the Sabu matches for the first time in forever, I was stunned at how much I enjoyed them. It's because of the "spectacular trainwreck" thing, yeah, and most of it was because I wanted to see how much insane shit Sabu would try, but years ago I hated them...so that's at least something.

 

Haven't seen the Smothers/RVD matches (or match...I don't know how many they had), but I've always hated the Lynn matches.

[Matt D]

RVD was definitely not a guy who would let something as jejune as selling get in the way of getting his shit in.

[anarchistxx]

I liked Van Dam's offence. It was athletic, looked cool, always got a pop. Moreover it was his own, which is more than you can say for most signature spots.

 

- Rolling thunder

- Spinning leg drop

- Spinning leg drop from apron to barricade

- Split legged moonsault

- Flip to the outside

- Van Daminator

- Van Terminator

- Standing moonsault

 

All of those moves went over great, often looked spectacular, and a lot of it almost unique to himself. Sure, he used to blow off selling and get caught up in his routine, but that criticism applies to 75% of wrestlers. Some of it was contrived, but again, internet darlings like Mysterio and Flair also do their fair share of contrived shit.

 

And that's just his regular stuff, besides all the cool things he used to do in ECW. Not to mention all the cool kicks he pulls out. His punches weren't the best but his kicks were among the best in the industry, especially clear today when you see so many workers doing that horrible spot kicking the guy on his knees. Punk and Mysterio especially have terrible looking kicks.

[Jimmy Redman]

To add to the "better on defense" theory, the match where he dropped the ECW Title to Big Show is a hell of a lot of fun. Show is back to being a monster heel and RVD bumps his ass off.

[Ditch]

Let's not forget that RVD was much better in All Japan, where (it seems) he's being led and reeled in. The sum of his AJ work doesn't top the sum of his ECW work, but the average quality is WAY higher, and he was good a lot sooner in AJ.

[anarchistxx]

I still find it somewhat of a headtrip that Van Dam was on the 6/9/95 card, totally forgot about his All Japan run. Great match with Kroffat too, I think that and the Sabu match are the only AJPW matches I've seen from RVD, anything else worth checking out?

 

On a side note, has anyone got the full listings for 6/9/95? Would be interested to see the rest of the card. Full show never appeared, did it? I have vague memories of Coey maybe reviewing it, but I probably made that up.

[Laney]

I don't think RVD was every particularly good, but he used innovative moves and that's what got him over. He was mega over in 01/02 soon after he debuted in WWE. I don't think he really went downhill from there, but a lack of a push and his moveset not being so fresh led to the audience not caring about him and he just sort of floundered.

[Jingus]

RVD is one of those peculiar types who can't be booked like a regular guy. He has to be seriously pushed; and whenever that happens, the fanbase will inevitably get behind him. As a standard midcarder floundering around in search of something resembling a character, he's useless. Kinda the same thing with Goldberg and a few other guys like that.

 

I don't recall anyone mentioning Rob's bumping yet, so let's just mention for posterity: Rob Van Dam takes some awesome bumps. Well, not so much nowadays, but in his prime the dude was a bump machine par excellence.

 

As for post-2001 accomplishments: he had some really fun stuff with Eddie and Benoit in 2002, where both of those guys gleefully took full advantage of Rob's athleticism and built spots around the amazing stuff his body was capable of. Any match he ever had with Jericho was always worth watching. And then there was that period in 2006 when they were first restarting ECW, Rob was motivated like he hadn't been in years and was doing some really cool shit. He was having random TV matches with guys like Rey, Angle, Cena, and they were all pretty neat little sprints. Alas, then came the drug bust; after he finally came back, Rob and Sabu proceeded to have one of the worst series of matches that I've ever seen those guys do, and then TNA and rocks fall everyone dies.

[rzombie1988]

Van Dam's run as ECW champ was pretty good. He really seemed motivated and did more stuff with his kicks than usual.

 

I've probably mentioned it here before but I once watched a Best of Rob Van Dam comp and never wanted to see a Rob Van Dam match ever again.

[Ditch]

I don't recall anyone mentioning Rob's bumping yet, so let's just mention for posterity: Rob Van Dam takes some awesome bumps. Well, not so much nowadays, but in his prime the dude was a bump machine par excellence.

Nastiest stunner bump of anyone, and it isn't even close.

[victory]

My favourite match of his is probably the Summerslam 02 match with Benoit, where Benoit just picks him apart. I suppose that goes along with the 'better on defence' consensus that seems to be forming here.

That's my favorite WWE RVD match. Doesn't seem to be talked about much,even when the Benoit name wasn't taboo to say. His hair actually got messed up for once with the ass kicking he took.

[EricR]

His hair always got messed up. By the ends of his matches he always had tons of fly-aways. More than once I heard annoying "brush your hair" chants in ECW. Next you're gonna tell me that he rarely ended matches with an insane amount of crack sweat soaking through horrible singlets.

[Loss]

Yet I never saw his ponytail fall completely out.

[Exposer]

Yet I never saw his ponytail fall completely out.

It MAY have fallen out against Benoit at Summerslam 02.

 

I have no reason why I debated that.

[Chess Knight]

Yeah, it definitely did. Well, maybe post-match, but by the end of his appearance on the show he had the IC Title and no hair-tie.

[Sidebottom]

I rate RVD highly. He is a star and is capable of seperating himself from the pack. I have no doubt he will make no changes to his act upon his wwe return, but it will get over with the new audience members.Recent performances have shown him in great shape, and he is bound to be over like rover at MITB. Can't wait!

[jdw]

On a side note, has anyone got the full listings for 6/9/95? Would be interested to see the rest of the card. Full show never appeared, did it? I have vague memories of Coey maybe reviewing it, but I probably made that up.

From prowrestlinghistory.com

 

June 9, 1995 in Tokyo, Japan

All Japan

Budokan Hall drawing 16,300 ($1,000,000)

 

1. Masao & Mighty Inoue beat Maunukea Mossman & Mitsuo Momota (8:56) when Masao pinned ???.

 

2. Satoru Asako pinned Mike Anthony (6:58).

 

3. Kentaro Shiga, Tsuyoshi Kikuchi, & Yoshinori Ogawa beat Tamon Honda, Takao Omori, & Jun Akiyama (10:26) when Kikuchi pinned Omori.

 

3. Johnny Ace & The Patriot beat Doug Furnas & Bobby Duncum, Jr. (9:59) when Ace pinned Furnas.

 

4. Abdullah the Butcher, Giant Baba, & Rusher Kimura beat Ryukaku Izumida, Haruka Eigan, & Masa Fuchi (13:43) when Abdullah pinned Fuchi.

 

5. PWF Junior Heavyweight Champ Dan Kroffat pinned Rob Van Dam (17:10).

 

6. Stan Hansen pinned Giant Kimala II (5:09).

 

7. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue beat Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi (42:37) to win the All Japan World Tag Title when Kawada pinned Misawa.

 

Basically a shitty card other than the main event being off the charts and the Jr title match being quite a bit above expectations.

 

I don't remember anything else of RVD's run in All Japan that was terribly interesting. Thought he always looked pretty weak link, and not in the Akiyama to Misawa fashion, but in the Neidhart to Bret fashion: the one who stood out as not being terribly good.

[JerryvonKramer]

Last time I even thought about RVD is when I started watching High Flyers matches and wanted to find someone to compare some of the sheer awkward-weirdness of Greg Gagne to.

 

I'd take Greg Gagne over RVD now.

 

RVD, or at least my memory of him from early 00s WWE, is that he represents a spotty style I really don't care for. I do think though, that the comparison with Greg Gagne is warranted: he's very distinctive in the way he does things. Sort of moves oddly. He doesn't do a kick like most human beings would do a kick.

 

This thread did make me want to go back to 2002 though to see what perceptions were like back then. Some random links to the way-back machine:

 

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?showtopic=8037

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?showtopic=3728

http://www.oocities.org/colosseum/arena/9893/RVD.htm

 

People comparing him to Shawn Michaels in 95/6. People saying he's a bigger face than Austin on Raw. People annoyed with Jim Ross for criticising him in a column. Extended comparisons with HHH. RVD's getting held down for political reasons. It's part of JR's campaign against Paul Heyman. All fun and games.

[Guest Staples]

Yet I never saw his ponytail fall completely out.

It MAY have fallen out against Benoit at Summerslam 02.

 

I have no reason why I debated that.