Elimination Chamber 2013

[tim]

Yeah they're in a weird position with the Heavyweight title. I don't mind it being a secondary belt, in fact I do think if they don't have a formal brand separate ONE belt has to be far and away THE belt, but it puts the WHC in a weird position of super-IC title, I'd say they should get rid of it but I feel like they want it around because Smackdown is still around, not its own show, further from RAW in terms of importance than its ever been, and I imagine the WHC angle gives the weekly shows some direction.

[Slasher]

Yeah they're in a weird position with the Heavyweight title. I don't mind it being a secondary belt, in fact I do think if they don't have a formal brand separate ONE belt has to be far and away THE belt, but it puts the WHC in a weird position of super-IC title, I'd say they should get rid of it but I feel like they want it around because Smackdown is still around, not its own show, further from RAW in terms of importance than its ever been, and I imagine the WHC angle gives the weekly shows some direction.

Not disagreeing with the logic, but they could still have Del Rio stand up to Swagger's bigotry, without a title involved. I don't think a WHC is needed anymore if the gap between the "RAW" title and the "SD" title is growing larger by the week. The last time the WHC meant anything really, was when Batista held it, and that was like 8 years ago.

[Cox]

The World Heavyweight Title is basically the IC belt these days, with the IC and US belts basically being the Million Dollar Belt and the King's Crown. It's such an afterthought of a title that I don't think anybody on creative really, truly cares who is in that match. When was the last time the WHC match didn't open a PPV? When was the last time the WHC match was higher than 4th on the Wrestlemania pecking order? It's just not an important title there.

[tigerpride]

When was the last time WHC even main evented a PPV? I'm drawing a blank.

 

You have Henry kill Del Rio at WM, build up an extreme rules re-match, Henry wins there, and then you have Henry squashing guys until you find the guy you want to take the title off of him. Jack Swagger? Come on

[tim]

I would disagree that it isn't an important title, it's been instrumental in del Rio's face turn, Mark Henry's run, Danielson's push, etc. Frankly I would like it if it were just recognized as "new IC title," a legit upper-midcard title that legit upper card guys can foray in now and then, while the real top stars (Punk, Cena, etc) are involved in the WWE Title scene. Get the US and IC titles unified, might as well be under Cesaro since he's made the belt mean something. Drop all pretensions and have the Rumble count only to WWE Title.

 

The sort of de-facto hierarchy going on right now I think would work pretty well if it was codified: the real stars are with the WWE Title, the upper-midcarders to fledgling stars are chasing the WHC, and there's an appreciable distance from that to the undercard guys(of whom there are plenty of reasonably over acts) going after the IC or US belt with little difference between the two, so go ahead and have Cesaro unite them.

[Marty]

When was the last time WHC even main evented a PPV? I'm drawing a blank.

HIAC 2010 (Kane-Taker)

 

It was also the highest booked title (for lack of a better term) at TLC 2010 (Edge-Rey-Kane-ADR) but the Cena-Barrett chairs match closed the show.

[Kostka]

I agree with Dylan about Swagger. It's definate hotshotting WWE booking where the guy always ends up flat on his face. Building a star is a process. Swagger winning the Chamber felt very flukey, and he's not a guy who's secured himself any big wins otherwise. Del Rio just beat the Big Show clean. Why should I think he should have any trouble beating a guy who not too long ago regularly lost to Santino every week? And at WM? Many WWE PPVs feel like episodes of Raw and Smackdown these days, in terms of booking finishes and of star power, so I guess WM wouldnt' be an exception. Still, I'll probably enjoy the feud for what it is. Feels more like an experimental spring/summer program, though. I actually thought they were going to turn Orton and program him against Del Rio, which I also probably wouldn't care to see.

[air_raid]

Del Rio just beat the Big Show clean. Why should I think he should have any trouble beating a guy who not too long ago regularly lost to Santino every week? And at WM?

Because it's not that simple. If it were that simple, beating Big Show itself would mean nothing. Everybody's beaten Big Show. Big Show spent a whole summer in 2002 doing clean jobs for Booker T, Bubba Ray Dudley and Jeff Hardy, and still marched into Survivor Series to knock off an unbeaten Brock Lesnar to win the World title. Bradshaw was nobody for eight years and magically was good enough to be World Champion after two months as JBL. Mark Henry lay down for everyone for 15 years before pinning Randy Orton cleanly for the Big Gold Belt. Swagger's chances of beating Del Rio have got fuck all to do with who he was jobbing to on TV five months before he adopted his current persona.

 

In storyline terms, he's come back aggressive and focused, has had no problems beating the JTTS types (including said same Santino) in less than three minutes and has just won an Elimination Chamber. He's in red hot form. He's a completely different animal to the "All-American American", blue singlet and press ups. I'm not saying he'll beat Bertie, I think if Del Rio doesn't leave 'Mania with the belt then Ziggler will, but Swagger winning in the Chamber marks him as a threat.

 

Don't worry about Santino. If you think you measure a man's calibre by who he gets pinned by, Ric Flair once did a clean job for Rico. Think about that.

[Dylan Waco]

Swagger has won what, two or three tv matches prior to winning the EC which he won on a roll up. The idea that that is exactly like Henry's run before winning the belt is comical.

[air_raid]

The idea that that is exactly like Henry's run before winning the belt is comical.

Nobody said that.

[Dylan Waco]

Apologies

[Slasher]

I kinda get it though. With Mark Henry he has been pushed as a killer on and off since like 2004ish. When they started up the Hall of Pain run, it began in May in full force (I think), and they still waited to put the belt on him til September or October. I don't think Swagger is meant to win at Wrestlemania, so I don't mind him winning the Chamber. Remember Santino was a hair away from winning it last year, so it's been proven it takes just as much luck as it does talent to be put in a position to win. If they continue the Swagger push the same way they did before the Chamber, with him submitting everyone in the Patriot Lock, then he can easily be a believable main eventer by June.

[Dylan Waco]

Santino was being sold as a fluke/luck guy. Swagger is being sold as crazy badass....but he's done nothing to get that rep.

 

They should have just had him beat Kane or someone credible, but worthless leading up to the show and he should have gone over in a meaningful way in the Chamber.

[Matt D]

The roll up is what has me confused. That's a really strange decision.

[Kostka]

Del Rio just beat the Big Show clean. Why should I think he should have any trouble beating a guy who not too long ago regularly lost to Santino every week? And at WM?

Because it's not that simple. If it were that simple, beating Big Show itself would mean nothing. Everybody's beaten Big Show. Big Show spent a whole summer in 2002 doing clean jobs for Booker T, Bubba Ray Dudley and Jeff Hardy, and still marched into Survivor Series to knock off an unbeaten Brock Lesnar to win the World title. Bradshaw was nobody for eight years and magically was good enough to be World Champion after two months as JBL. Mark Henry lay down for everyone for 15 years before pinning Randy Orton cleanly for the Big Gold Belt. Swagger's chances of beating Del Rio have got fuck all to do with who he was jobbing to on TV five months before he adopted his current persona.

 

In storyline terms, he's come back aggressive and focused, has had no problems beating the JTTS types (including said same Santino) in less than three minutes and has just won an Elimination Chamber. He's in red hot form. He's a completely different animal to the "All-American American", blue singlet and press ups. I'm not saying he'll beat Bertie, I think if Del Rio doesn't leave 'Mania with the belt then Ziggler will, but Swagger winning in the Chamber marks him as a threat.

 

Don't worry about Santino. If you think you measure a man's calibre by who he gets pinned by, Ric Flair once did a clean job for Rico. Think about that.

 

For the record, I'm actually a fan of this feud. My issue isn't so much the hotshotting aspect of it, as sometimes it can work. My problem with it is timing. JBL and Henry, as best I recall, got their respective main event pushes in the spring. Spring is always a "safe" time of the year to do experimental type of pushes, where if it doesn't matter so much if it sinks or swims. Henry and JBL were both spring pushes. I think what makes this different, mainly, is the fact that Del Rio is a freshly turned babyface who to get him to that next level, needs a profile type match/win on the biggest show of the year. I like Swagger, but I think this kind of push works better post-Mania, spring/summertime.

 

And for what it's worth, I think Big Show is WAY more protected now than he was in 2002.

[Dylan Waco]

I object to this on multiple levels.

 

I think it's far worse for Del Rio and Swagger than it is for Henry to be honest. Swagger has already been pushed this way once and it flamed out and led to him being a guy who regularly lost to Justin Gabriel and Tyson Kidd for what seemed like forever. Del Rio is a guy who they have already royally fucked up once on a strong main event push. To me throwing them together with weak build, Swagger having not been developed at all and Del Rio needing a more impressive win at Mania is a recipe for disaster. I hope i'm wrong because I like both guys.

[Exposer]

I hope i'm wrong because I like both guys.

You can be and are wrong.

[ZThomas]

Del Rio is a guy who they have already royally fucked up once on a strong main event push. To me throwing them together with weak build, Swagger having not been developed at all and Del Rio needing a more impressive win at Mania is a recipe for disaster. I hope i'm wrong because I like both guys.

Yeah, its crazy that they are taking this risk at Mania as if its a throw away PPV. As far as being motivation this face run breathed new life in Del Rio, Booking wise might be debatable but I see Del Rio working hard to make this work.

 

Its obvious that Swaggers push is only to run this political angle and not really about getting him over in the long run, but Its still up to him to get over in spite

[blueminister]

Del Rio just beat the Big Show clean. Why should I think he should have any trouble beating a guy who not too long ago regularly lost to Santino every week? And at WM?

Steve Austin's credentials are forever sullied by his epic sonning at the hands of journeyman "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan.

 

Seriously though, I think we can agree that for upper-mid card guys that the amnesiac approach to booking sort of works both ways. People on the net don't seem to have any problem thinking Ziggler should go over in whatever big match he's booked for that month even though he's been treated like a loser more often than not. Crowds don't have a problem getting behind Santino on the odd occasion he's treated seriously. In WWE the build-up to big matches will be as effective as the immediate lead -- as long as Swagger is treated like as a guy who was in a slump but is now a xenophobic threat who is now inspired by Alex Jones to get the job done, people will tend to regard him as such by the time of the big event.

 

It's not what's preferable for anyone who enjoys being awarded for paying attention week-to-week, but sometimes you have to acknowledge you're on the wrong side of history

[goodhelmet]

I hope i'm wrong because I like both guys.

You can be and are wrong.

 

Oh shit... blood feud!!!

[Dylan Waco]

Del Rio just beat the Big Show clean. Why should I think he should have any trouble beating a guy who not too long ago regularly lost to Santino every week? And at WM?

Steve Austin's credentials are forever sullied by his epic sonning at the hands of journeyman "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan.

 

Seriously though, I think we can agree that for upper-mid card guys that the amnesiac approach to booking sort of works both ways. People on the net don't seem to have any problem thinking Ziggler should go over in whatever big match he's booked for that month even though he's been treated like a loser more often than not. Crowds don't have a problem getting behind Santino on the odd occasion he's treated seriously. In WWE the build-up to big matches will be as effective as the immediate lead -- as long as Swagger is treated like as a guy who was in a slump but is now a xenophobic threat who is now inspired by Alex Jones to get the job done, people will tend to regard him as such by the time of the big event.

 

It's not what's preferable for anyone who enjoys being awarded for paying attention week-to-week, but sometimes you have to acknowledge you're on the wrong side of history

 

 

There is a reason house show attendance goes down when Cena isn't on the shows (which it did recently even in Mania season to the point of falling below SD attendance numbers which rarely ever happens). To one degree what you say is true short term, but long term I can't see how it's a winning formula

[KrisZ]

Alvarez posted on Twitter that he was interviewed by NBC today about Swagger......so they are succeeding in getting press.

[air_raid]

Yeah, its crazy that they are taking this risk at Mania as if its a throw away PPV.

On the contrary, I think it's a pretty good time to try out someone new in the mix rather than a less important PPV where the secondary World title defence might be the second biggest match on the card. Nobody expects/needs them to have a match for the Big Gold Belt that will attract buys for 'Mania. They will expect to get those off the back of :

 

a ) Rock VS Cena

b ) Brock VS HHH

c ) Punk VS Undertaker (if it happens)

d ) Ryback VS Show "and can Ryback lift the Big Show into Shellshock??" (if that happens)

e ) Whatever Sheamus, Orton, Jericho, Ziggler, Henry, Bryan, Kane and The Shield are booked to do.

f ) "It's WrestleMania, I have to watch WrestleMania!"

 

More than likely it's being viewed as a chance to see how the Jack Swagger of 2013 does in a big match setting and gauge the live crowd's reaction to him, and if it doesn't go swimmingly, most viewers will probably forget by show's end after they've seen all that other shit I just mentioned. Especially if Ziggler cashes in, Taker wrestles, Hunter lamps Lesnar or some such.

 

For the record - I think Swagger vs Del Rio will be a very good wrestling match. Swagger had a fine one on one title match with Rey at Money In The Bank 2010, and I think ADR is a much better, more rounded wrestler than Mysterio. The cheap xenophobe gimmick and Del Rio's fiery babyface comebacks almost guarantees heat, and both are good wrestlers so it will be solid.

[Dylan Waco]

I said last year that they could run whatever on a Rock v. Cena card and it wouldn't matter in terms of buyrate/attendance so that is true. Will it matter down the road with Del Rio? Possibly

[WingedEagle]

I still think they can run just about anything underneath Rock vs. Cena. I don't have quite that same confidence if they muddy the waters with a 3 way where the only other mainstream match is Brock vs. HHH.