El Dandy

[JerryvonKramer]

El Dandy vs. Negro Casas (7/3/92)

 

I found the matwork here to be infinitely more engaging than in the Angel Azteca match and I think that's mostly down to the fact that Casas is a much more interesting performer than Azteca. El Dandy also seemed more somehow ... Rugged here. Like a face who was prepared to do whatever it takes.

 

The first fall was cool. As one of the least flexible guys in history, I can appreciate how much forced splits might hurt. But they kept things moving too. The limb work was closer to what I'm used to in US wrestling and everything was logical and made sense. They weren't doing and fancy Dan shit, they were just trying to hurt each other.

 

Second fall and the action ramped up. Some great high spots, including a swank back breaker from Dandy. Casas seems like a guy I could get into. He's been good on offense, and great at bumping and selling. Dandy's standing drop kick is cool. Missile drop kick nearfall was also great. Belly to belly from the top rope by Casas and a Randy Savage elbow drop only gets two! Another great nearfall. Crucifix powerbomb, another great nearfall! Powerbomb by Dandy, another great nearfall! And a magnificent pin by Dandy.

 

Just at the moment I was thinking there was no way in hell I could ever get into Lucha, this match comes along. Really great match with great action and some of the best nearfalls I can remember seeing. Negro Casas looked amazing in this match, but Dandy more than brought his end too. Great stuff, match for the ages.

 

*****

[goodhelmet]

This is no longer about El Dandy praise being ironic and has morphed into an El Dandy thread proper so I changed the title.

[ohtani's jacket]

El Dandy vs. Angel Azteca (6/1/90)

 

I just don't get this or the love for it. I hate to be at odds with Chad, PeteF3 and Charles, three guys I genuinely like and agree with a lot, but I didn't even LIKE this match.

 

First two falls were very dull, all matwork, but nothing I found interesting. It was missing the wrinkles I see in 70s matwork or the struggle and intensity of Bock or Robinson. El Dandy is quite good at selling, but I thought some of Angel Azteca's limb work was actively bad. There was one point where he was pulling on El Dandy's arm and I was thinking "even allowing for wrestling logic, how in the hell am I meant to believe that hurts?" Looked pathetic. Other holds seemed improbable to me, and the backslide finish to one of the falls people were raving about looked sloppy to me.

 

I was disappointed with El Dandy too though, he's meant to be the babyface. But I thought he lacked fire and came across as being a bit bland and lacking in charisma, kinda like young Bret Hart. The match seemed to have no feeling in it. Third fall action picked up a bit, but I didn't feel like they'd carried me through a build to those high spots, so the plancha comes off as being just choreographed.

 

As I said, I hate being against the tide of opinion like this, but this didn't click with me at all. When I think of stuff like Bock vs. Hennig or Flair vs. Steamboat, and then I think of this, I'm legit shocked people can mention those matches in the same breath. Different strokes I guess. Heading over to 1990 forum to read over everyone's comments, but man. This is like trying to get into abstract modern art or something.

 

**1/2

 

Maybe this belongs in the match criticism thread, but this whole "I wasn't invested in the match" trend is such a cop out. It may be a perfectly legitimate reason for not enjoying something, but as a match criticism? What do you expect? That they wrestle the match some way that makes you emotionally invested? Reading your comments, it's clear that you don't get a lot of things about the style or the match, which appears to be holding back your enjoyment of the bout more than whether it stirred you.

 

And you kept making strange comparisons. What does Dandy/Azteca, or Satanico/Dandy for that matter, have to do with the bouts you compared them to? You're handicapping them right now. Dandy/Azteca compares to other lucha title matches and Satanico/Dandy to other hair matches. There's no reason to compare them outside of their style. I also think you're off comparing 1970s NWA heavyweight wrestling with this weight class.

 

I don't really get where this lack of charisma stuff is coming from either. I have many criticisms of Dandy but a lack of charisma wouldn't be one of them. I just watched the intros to this match and he was charismatic for me during those opening moments. If you've spent a long time watching the guy, know the guy as best you can without speaking Spanish, and know how important this match was to him and how much he wanted to beat Azteca then it resonates a whole lot more than if you're just sitting there waiting for Dandy to show you something.

[JerryvonKramer]

I much preferred the Casas bout from 92 and thought Dandy showed a lot more personality in that one too.

 

The Azteca match and why people think it's a GOAT contender are a total mystery to me.

[ohtani's jacket]

He's wrestling a title match not engaging in a personality contest. Everyone in the building knows what his personality is like just as though understand the conventions of a title match. The Casas/Dandy stuff was more heated because Casas emerged in the company as an immediate rival to Dandy as the No.1 guy around and wasn't afraid to flaunt it in Dandy's face. The Azteca feud was spurred more by Dandy's frustrations that a newer guy was getting the better of him and featured a quasi-rudo turn where he at least flirted with crossing over the over side ala Casas the more he was cheered.

[JerryvonKramer]

He's wrestling a title match not engaging in a personality contest.

 

I'll have to remember that one next time people are ragging on Dory.

 

Can you explain the finish to the Satanico match at all? The one with the chicken dance? Found it totally weird.

[ohtani's jacket]

Dandy faked being fouled (i.e low blowed) while the ref was out of the ring. The jumping around he does is the common way for rudos to feign being fouled. The whole concept behind an apuesta match is that the tecnico is able to fight fire with fight, though this finish took it to an extreme. Satanico got his just deserts as he commonly fouled. I'm not sure if he fouled during the lead in or during the match itself, but he was a dirty wrestler and the finish was supposed to be ironic.

[goc]

Haven't seen the match yet, but Satancio also wasn't above faking that he was fouled or taking a win that way.

[Eduardo]

A strong part of the build up, and the match itself, was built around what ended up being the finish to Satanico-Dandy.

 

Satanico had beaten Dandy in a similar way in previous matches. It was documented before the match, and discussed during the match by the commentators. In the match itself, Dandy tried to fool the referee a few times but it didn't work. It finally did at the climax of the match. Dandy was giving him "una sopa de su propio chocolate" ("a taste of his own medicine"). It also proved that Dandy could beat Satanico at his own game of "rudeza". It was a big accomplishment for Dandy. After the match, the commentators kept talking about it by using the Spanish versions of "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", and Dandy mentions how he is a fast learner (as he learned how to play dirty from Satanico in previous bouts).

 

In short, it was poetic justice and I thought it was the perfect ending to this 1990 feud.

[ohtani's jacket]

And that's why we should always have our Spamish speakers around to explain everything.

[goc]

This was on my TV because I was checking to make sure it was the same match on youtube. So I went ahead and watched it.

 

El Dandy vs. L.A. Par-K (2004 Match of the Year) (ENESMA 10/29/04)

 

First fall is classic lucha title match style technical wrestling. Dandy has clearly lost a step here but he's still pretty good. Dandy wins with a submission after maybe about 5 minutes of the first fall.

Things pick up quick in the second fall and Park hits a dive on Dandy but Park himself probably got the worst of that with the way he hit the rail. Lucha is more fun without guard rails. Park gets a submission victory to end the 2nd fall in very quick fashion and they seemed to really just want to get the first 2 falls out of the way.

The third fall really just feels like a bunch of trading big moves and laying around for the most part. I mean the guys hit their moves nice and Park isn't afraid to take some nasty bumps but in between all that these guys look really out of breath. Park in particular looks totally gassed. Then things get stupid as we get some run ins and Park and Dandy are about to both dive out on the guys who interfered but Park instead rolls Dandy up and pins him. 2004 match of the year seems like high praise for something I wouldn't rank above "good."

[Phil Schneider]

I think there must have been some weird lucha magazine politics going on with that match being named MOTY. I had similar thoughts about it when I watched it, and I ride pretty hard for both guys. Wouldn't have that in a career top 20 for either guy

[Matt D]

I want to see a La Parka top 20.

[JerryvonKramer]

El Dandy vs. Angel Azteca (6/1/90)

 

I just don't get this or the love for it. I hate to be at odds with Chad, PeteF3 and Charles, three guys I genuinely like and agree with a lot, but I didn't even LIKE this match.

 

First two falls were very dull, all matwork, but nothing I found interesting. It was missing the wrinkles I see in 70s matwork or the struggle and intensity of Bock or Robinson. El Dandy is quite good at selling, but I thought some of Angel Azteca's limb work was actively bad. There was one point where he was pulling on El Dandy's arm and I was thinking "even allowing for wrestling logic, how in the hell am I meant to believe that hurts?" Looked pathetic. Other holds seemed improbable to me, and the backslide finish to one of the falls people were raving about looked sloppy to me.

 

I was disappointed with El Dandy too though, he's meant to be the babyface. But I thought he lacked fire and came across as being a bit bland and lacking in charisma, kinda like young Bret Hart. The match seemed to have no feeling in it. Third fall action picked up a bit, but I didn't feel like they'd carried me through a build to those high spots, so the plancha comes off as being just choreographed.

 

As I said, I hate being against the tide of opinion like this, but this didn't click with me at all. When I think of stuff like Bock vs. Hennig or Flair vs. Steamboat, and then I think of this, I'm legit shocked people can mention those matches in the same breath. Different strokes I guess. Heading over to 1990 forum to read over everyone's comments, but man. This is like trying to get into abstract modern art or something.

 

**1/2

 

Here you go OJ. Time stamps refer to this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0fLKAa3QFU) rather than from the point the bell rang. I am only going to do the first 10 minutes or so, because I think this will give people more of a realistic shot at closely analysing the footage I'm talking about and offering their own thoughts.

 

1:43 - this is the opening gambit, it seems like a drop toehold, but seemed overly co-operative to me. Why did Azteca pause before finally going down? Outrageously "fake" looking for me. I am also not sure about immediately going into "legwork" like that as the very first thing in a match.

 

2:06 - the escape from Azteca is far far too easy as El Dandy basically just rolls over when it's time for his opponent to work the hold for a bit. Another of those WTF lucha things that take me out of it. Only 2 minutes in and I'm already not really enjoying the work I'm seeing. The level of cooperation is too transparent.

 

2:41 - front facelock by Dandy into waistlock thing by Azteca, again, much too cooperative and virutally no struggle. I see this work as being really sloppy.

 

2:47 - After that Azteca just lets go of the waistlock thing for Dandy to do the knee on the leg and hold that follows. Again, where is the sense of this actually being a competetive contest?

 

3:03- We do get a bit of back and forth punching now, which is the first sign of genuine struggle in this match to this point.

 

3:27 - the hold is again much much too easily countered, however, as El Dandy just lets Azteca wrap his arm around his head and pull him over with scarcely any struggle at all. This is really so lackluster that I don't understand how people can say otherwise. Listless work with no sense of urgency, pain, competition, or anything.

 

5:07 - here we see Azteca try to fight a bit more with some kicks, but once again Dandy releases the hold far far too easily at 5:24 and proceeds to just lay there as Azteca leisurely puts on a hold of his own.

 

5:49 - pattern continues, as Azteca gives way seemingly willingly to a body-scissors counter by Dandy. It's not a chess match between two opponents, it's a dance with each guy taking turns playing the girl willing themselves to be "led".

 

6:04 - El Dandy releases the body scissors, which was always a very very loose looking one for ... basically no reason at all. And Azteca gets back on top. This is really bad stuff. Literally "your turn", with the guy on top openly inviting the opponent (aka dance partner) to take their place.

 

6:35 - A note here on psychology. It was once pointed out that Dory Funk Jr has a habit of moving from hold to hold with no rhyme or reason. There has been almost no focus on any body part or even AREA in this match from either guy so far. The "narrative" is that each guy is finding escapes and ways to out-think the opponent, but this has been severely undermined by the sense of cooperation I've been pointing out so far. So we get a general movement from leg to torso to arm to neck from both. Everything so far has just been there eating up time, but by pretty much every barometer I'd look for in a match, it has failed to be "interesting" in any way at all.

 

7:05 - the first logical counter in the match that didn't look contrived: El Dandy uses a variation on a pump-handle slam to escape an arm lock.

 

7:29 - here Dandy capitalises on his advantage by applying a chin lock, but where a guy like your Dory Funk Jr or Bob Backlund might lean in on this with his bodyweight -- which would make sense since Azteca CLEARLY wants to get to his feet to attempt an escape -- here Dandy ... gets up with Azteca which of course allows him to counter with a side-Russian leg sweep. Literally appalling work in my view. Sense of struggle: 0/10. Sense of logic from Dandy applying the hold: 0/10. Holds in this match have consistenly been treated as light transitions rather than ... attempts to control the match and inflict pain. It's basic, basic psychology that is ... entirely missing here.

 

10:18 - after a two count, Azteca once again limply surrenders his advantage to Dandy for ... no discernable reason that I can see.

 

10:50 - one of the first glimmers of "interesting detail" in this match as Azteca tries to go for a Rick Rude reverse chin-lock and Dandy counters but putting his head down, so he can't synch in the move. However, as Azteca has his arms around the head so loosely (I mean you can almost see the air) that it's difficult to see how this might hurt anyway. This is the exact opposite of snug work. It's loose to the point where it looks fake. There is no semblance of real pain in a hold like this and it takes me out of things.

 

11:30 - still in this hold, a good example of the "looseness" of the work I've been talking about at its most egregious. Again, my definition of "terrible matwork". You can see clear daylight between Azteca's arms and Dandy's face. It's possible he's trying to work the temple of the forehead, but this would be a very strange way of doing it. This is one of the worst and fakest looking holds I've seen in my entire life.

 

Let's leave it there. I think that's enough to chew on for now. Depending on what sort of discussion this generates, I might then go onto the next 10 minutes.

[ohtani's jacket]

I only just saw this. I'll check it out tomorrow.

[Zenjo]

Let's leave it there. I think that's enough to chew on for now. Depending on what sort of discussion this generates, I might then go onto the next 10 minutes.

It's painful enough already. I'm not even sure if your review is a parody or not? Analysing a Lucha match like it took place in Rings. In minute detail. Taking a style of wrestling and judging it by a totally alien set of standards and expectations. If you're looking for 'realism' in a pro wrestling context and a lack of obvious cooperation then Lucha would be just about your last port of call.

[GOTNW]

I feel like I should respond to this with a detailed explanation of how stupid american wrestling is.

[funkdoc]

seriously, in my experience of showing wrestling to non-fans, the irish whip is the #1 thing that gets you clowned on

[Loss]

For posterity, I'll make a post out of my tweets in response to JvK about the above when he first called my attention to it

 

I don't place much value on this sort of frame-by-frame watching. It strikes me not as not seeing the forest for the trees but the reverse.

 

Something being painful is a means to an end, but not an end on its own. The whole point of dishing out pain is to get an opponent in a predicament where they can be beaten. It just so happens that hurting someone is the easiest way to do that. But plenty of moves don't look painful, but are still often effective -- the inside cradle is the first that comes to mind. So I don't think Azteca pulling on Dandy's arm has to look painful if the goal is to position Dandy to be beaten. I'm not even sure a standard armbar looks *painful*. Does it?

 

I recall Flair dropping the title to Ron Garvin off of a top rope sunset flip. It's preposterous if you give the mechanics of it more than five seconds of thought, but it was presented credibly, so it was ok.

 

In this case, I think the answer is that title matches are supposed to be on the up-and-up. They are sanctioned by athletic commissions and the goal is to have a sporting contest instead of working to hurt or maim. Sometimes going for the kill right away doesn't work, so setup moves are required to position the opponent later in the match. That's how most wrestling is worked. It's similar to Brock not just throwing an F5 immediately and instead throwing all of the suplexes. It fits his character just like it fits the character of Brian Pillman or Ricky Steamboat to start their matches with an armbar. They're sportsmen. Point being, Jake sort of had it with the DDT, but in general, wrestlers don't go for the kill immediately.

 

I don't want to dismiss the post without re-watching, but my instinct is to say wrestling is loaded with obvious cooperation, but it falls into categories -- things we are used to seeing that are intrinsic to our viewing experience, and things that we aren't used to seeing. Guys cooperate obviously and very much out in the open even with moves like vertical suplexes.

 

***

 

I also told JvK I'd rewatch the match, which I haven't been able to do unfortunately. When I do, I will try to respond in the spirit of his post, although I'm usually mentally checked out when it comes to time codes and that sort of microviewing. I don't know that I have it in me to watch wrestling that way.

[Goodear]

**Started writing before Loss' post **

 

Having watched the El Dandy vs. Angel Azteca match twice I'm left with it being a very sterile turn-based match that is more a chess match than a wrestling contest in the worst possible way. One guy makes a move and then waits for the other to counter into another hold. It loses something in the sense that you don't feel that there is a struggle taking place but rather a performance of holds. The lack of emphasis to transitions would make Kurt Angle blush as they seem to be worn out more from unsuccessful pin covers then from actual executed offense. Selling is also not emphasized to the point where you could reedit this match and take minutes 5-10 and put them to 15-20 and it would be hard to notice. This just illustrates how empty the whole thing feels when it comes to having any sort of narrative arc. The closest thing appears to be that they can counter things the third time their opponent attempts them (as demonstrated by the ending of the first fall when Dandy does 2 kneeling backdrops before getting caught on the third and Dandy countering a third Russian leg sweep).

 

The match also suffers from a lack of escalation with the exception of the third fall plancha which is the only time that the match seems to have any life to it. Unfortunately they reset immediately thereafter to Dandy missing a dropkick which is the wrong note to play at that point. Other highlights include a Dandy clothesline in the first fall which was forgotten about less than 15 seconds later before Angel slapped on a surfboard. There are no heat segments or control segments beyond a hold or two. Even-steven's style can be a successful choice but it still requires some peaks and valleys. This was more of a very flat desert.

 

I'm also struck by how flat the characters are here. Both are working a technical match but I'm left the match not having any sort of opinion on who each of them are. Nothing about the performance separates them from each other or demonstrates any sort of character beyond the barest of bones.

 

Things outside Angel and Dandy's control are also frustrating as slow counting referee bleeds the the possible excitement out of the roll up near falls. Because the counts are so ponderous, it breaks the suspension that the guys are being held down for so long. The camera also enjoys panning to uninterested crowd members during the third fall which is frankly baffling.

[alexoblivion]

Off topic and all, but regarding title matches being on the up and up in 1990, wasn't it discovered by the EMLL office in the 80's in regards to booking women wrestlers that the commission didn't actually have any power over the promotion?

[ohtani's jacket]

 

1:43 - this is the opening gambit, it seems like a drop toehold, but seemed overly co-operative to me. Why did Azteca pause before finally going down? Outrageously "fake" looking for me. I am also not sure about immediately going into "legwork" like that as the very first thing in a match.

To me that's just a takedown. Dandy is too quickfor him. Instead of falling face first, Azteca is able to keep his balance and push off to the side of Dandy. I'd be lying if I told you I knew that's because it's a better position for him to be in as a worker or because kayfabe wise it's a better position to counter from, but it has the same effect and Azteca is able to break the hold. I don't think he paused for long and I don't think it was a serious attempt at legwork. It was a takedown into a counter. No different from a lock-up really. When I read this, it seemed like Azteca was going to do spinning motions with his arms until finally succumbing to the drop toehold, your outrageously fake gripe seems to be with the side that Azteca fell on.

 

2:06 - the escape from Azteca is far far too easy as El Dandy basically just rolls over when it's time for his opponent to work the hold for a bit. Another of those WTF lucha things that take me out of it. Only 2 minutes in and I'm already not really enjoying the work I'm seeing. The level of cooperation is too transparent.

Azteca uses his free leg to push on Dandy's leg and arm and force the separation. I had no problem with this. They cut to a medium close-up of Azteca during the counter, but we saw enough to know that Dandy didn't simply roll over.

 

2:41 - front facelock by Dandy into waistlock thing by Azteca, again, much too cooperative and virutally no struggle. I see this work as being really sloppy.

Again, I don't see how there was anything wrong with Azteca's counter into the waistlock. The arm was there and he took it. They're just jockeying for position at this stage so there's not much need for struggle. It would strike me as odd if either of them were struggling this early in the bout. Azteca is a bit loose. He reminds me of younger Atlantis in the '84 and '85 bouts against Satanico and El Faraon. They'd only been pushing him since '88 and he wasn't anywhere near as smooth as Lizmark, Atlantis, Solar or Santo as far as similar sort of workers go. I liked the front facelock counter, though.

 

2:47 - After that Azteca just lets go of the waistlock thing for Dandy to do the knee on the leg and hold that follows. Again, where is the sense of this actually being a competetive contest?

He doesn't just let go of it. Dandy leans in on him and takes his leg.

 

3:03- We do get a bit of back and forth punching now, which is the first sign of genuine struggle in this match to this point.

Dandy's heavy breathing shows that it's been competitive to that point and even a tad bit frustrating from, Dandy's perspective. It seems to me that Dandy would like to slap on a hold and work Azteca over a bit, but Azteca is a slippery eel and able to counter everything. It would be nice if Azteca was a smoother worker, but not all of his stuff is polished.

 

3:27 - the hold is again much much too easily countered, however, as El Dandy just lets Azteca wrap his arm around his head and pull him over with scarcely any struggle at all. This is really so lackluster that I don't understand how people can say otherwise. Listless work with no sense of urgency, pain, competition, or anything.

That's a perfectly acceptable counter. He doesn't just wrap his arm around Dandy's head. He locks both hands and pulls him over.

 

5:07 - here we see Azteca try to fight a bit more with some kicks, but once again Dandy releases the hold far far too easily at 5:24 and proceeds to just lay there as Azteca leisurely puts on a hold of his own.

Azteca's not trying to kick him. He's trying to push against Dandy's right leg, which he succeeds in doing when he breaks the hold. Azteca not switching fast enough into his hold is just nitpicking, imo. In theory, Azteca is meant to have control of Dandy's leg, but in reality he lets go of it to move himself into position. It's a minor detail.

 

5:49 - pattern continues, as Azteca gives way seemingly willingly to a body-scissors counter by Dandy. It's not a chess match between two opponents, it's a dance with each guy taking turns playing the girl willing themselves to be "led".

Twice Dandy tries to take Azteca's arm and twice Azteca fends him off before Dandy grabs the arm and forces Azteca back.

 

6:04 - El Dandy releases the body scissors, which was always a very very loose looking one for ... basically no reason at all. And Azteca gets back on top. This is really bad stuff. Literally "your turn", with the guy on top openly inviting the opponent (aka dance partner) to take their place.

I don't think this was a bad counter, but in this case I think you can see Dandy feeding Azteca the transition by giving him the leg.

 

6:35 - A note here on psychology. It was once pointed out that Dory Funk Jr has a habit of moving from hold to hold with no rhyme or reason. There has been almost no focus on any body part or even AREA in this match from either guy so far. The "narrative" is that each guy is finding escapes and ways to out-think the opponent, but this has been severely undermined by the sense of cooperation I've been pointing out so far. So we get a general movement from leg to torso to arm to neck from both. Everything so far has just been there eating up time, but by pretty much every barometer I'd look for in a match, it has failed to be "interesting" in any way at all.

There's almost never a focus on limbwork or body part psychology in lucha. The focus is almost always on holds and counter holds and movement on the mat. To be perfectly honest, unless it were exceptionally well done I would be disappointed to see a focus on limbwork in a lucha title match. The way I see it, two guys have been working a match, exerting a lot of energy and trying to get a score over the other guy.

 

7:05 - the first logical counter in the match that didn't look contrived: El Dandy uses a variation on a pump-handle slam to escape an arm lock.

The irony of this is that the transition from the mat to the standing position that Dandy counters from is by far the worst thing in the bout thus far. At around 6:48 they simply stand up.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

7:29 - here Dandy capitalises on his advantage by applying a chin lock, but where a guy like your Dory Funk Jr or Bob Backlund might lean in on this with his bodyweight -- which would make sense since Azteca CLEARLY wants to get to his feet to attempt an escape -- here Dandy ... gets up with Azteca which of course allows him to counter with a side-Russian leg sweep. Literally appalling work in my view. Sense of struggle: 0/10. Sense of logic from Dandy applying the hold: 0/10. Holds in this match have consistenly been treated as light transitions rather than ... attempts to control the match and inflict pain. It's basic, basic psychology that is ... entirely missing here./quote]

This was nowhere near as bad as the example at 6:48. I can understand someone thinking it could have been worked better, but I can't fathom how anyone would find it "appalling." That's a tad melodramatic. It also doesn't allow for the possibility that maybe Dandy the wrestler made a (kaybabe) mistake, or even the possibility that he can't apply the hold properly since his arm is hurting.

 

10:18 - after a two count, Azteca once again limply surrenders his advantage to Dandy for ... no discernable reason that I can see.

Quite the jump cut here. You seem to have ignored the escalation taking place, Dandy's increased selling (even focusing on a body part!), the boss work he does in the time between, the pain, the struggle and the competitiveness. You'll notice that they're staying in holds for longer and it's becoming more difficult for them to counter. I don't really get your criticism of the counter here. Dandy turns it over. Naturally it looks co-operative because pro-wrestling is co-operative. But that's a standard counter.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

10:50 - one of the first glimmers of "interesting detail" in this match as Azteca tries to go for a Rick Rude reverse chin-lock and Dandy counters but putting his head down, so he can't synch in the move. However, as Azteca has his arms around the head so loosely (I mean you can almost see the air) that it's difficult to see how this might hurt anyway. This is the exact opposite of snug work. It's loose to the point where it looks fake. There is no semblance of real pain in a hold like this and it takes me out of things.

I agree that this looks bad. I don't think it's helped by the camera work, but at the same time Azteca keeps moving his hands which doesn't help the camera man. It's loosely applied, but I'm also spending an inordinate amount of time staring at it instead of taking the whole frame into account. For me the idea works even if the execution is off, and all I can really say is that the looseness doesn't bother me so much because the timing of the hold is okay. They keep it on for the right length of time (not too long, not too short) and Dandy counters on the right beat. I can overlook the execution.

 

11:30 - still in this hold, a good example of the "looseness" of the work I've been talking about at its most egregious. Again, my definition of "terrible matwork". You can see clear daylight between Azteca's arms and Dandy's face. It's possible he's trying to work the temple of the forehead, but this would be a very strange way of doing it. This is one of the worst and fakest looking holds I've seen in my entire life.

I think I got ahead of you. He's not trying to work the temple. The hold is applied too loosely and he can't keep his hands steady.

Might as well go ahead and finish the fall...

This is an exceptionally long opening fall for a lucha title match. After Azteca's bump to the outside and the re-set in the middle of the ring that mirrors the opening of the bout, the usually pattern would be for them to run the ropes until one worker scored a pinning maneuver, but it's like they're working overtime here. Some of it works and some of it is a bit hollow. If it were a film and I were the director, I'd trim it a bit, but it's not and therefore we're left with a fall that goes a tad long. They were trying to put over the extreme competitiveness of the workers despite claims of an obvious lack of competitiveness and Azteca not really being on Dandy's level as a worker. Dandy telegraphed the move that Azteca countered for the submission, which I can imagine annoying folks, and after all that back and forth it's a straight counter that ends it, which will annoy you if you hate the hold/counter hold flow, but that was a massive primera caida for experienced lucha viewers.

I can understand your dislike of the rhythm of the bout. I think your distaste for the bout clouded your judgement a couple of times and some of the language you use is a bit over-the-top, but I understand your problem with lucha now and don't think it's going to change any time soon. Again, I think you're being a bit OTT with your disbelief that anybody else could like this stuff, but at least we settled that you have a problem with the nuts and bolts of workers not staying in holds for long enough, transitions coming too easily and too fast and not enough body part focus.

[ohtani's jacket]

Man, did the board hate that post.