80s catchup thread

[Ricky Jackson]

Watching some of this Maple Leaf stuff. Immediately gravitated to the Sgt.Slaughter and Greg Valentine tag team matches, which is like a dream team for me. Dear God, Slaughter was so insanely over as a heel at this point (1981), just nuclear heat. I watched two matches, one where they fought Pat Patterson and Jay Youngblood and another where they met Youngblood and Johnny Weaver. I'm reminded that Jay Youngblood was an awesome wrestler whose early death pretty much condemned him to being forgotten by many fans, which is a shame. Fun stuff here, especially the first match. I'm going to keep watching until I tap out. Coming up is Mr Fuji and Hussain Arab (Iron Sheik) as a team!

[Ricky Jackson]

Piper vs Steamboat is clipped down to the final 5 minutes but it's good stuff and features a rare clean job by Hot Rod

[Ricky Jackson]

East-West Connection vs "Dynamite" Dominic DeNucci and Tony Parisi was a perfectly solid little tag bout with a hot crowd

[Ricky Jackson]

Sgt. Slaughter beats Jay Youngblood clean as a sheet in a good match. Who knew Frank Tunney started the "all clean finishes" trend years before Baba. Maybe a response to years and years of screwy finishes with the Sheik on top

[JerryvonKramer]

Just logged into my YouTube to find this guy has uploaded 93 more vids! Some intriguing looking stuff.

[JerryvonKramer]

On iPhone so minimal notes

 

Lucha 3.1

Satanico vs. Shiro Koshinaka (Hair vs. Hair) (7/30/84)

 

Very good arm work from Koshinaka in the first fall, laser focus, good intensity. Pin was too sudden though.

 

They go to selling like they've been in a long war way too quickly in the second fall, I'm not buying it. Pin comes very suddenly after a sloppy suplex from Satanico. Somehow Satanico moves like a sack of potatoes falling on the mat in both his offense and bumping, quite unusual. More towards scrappy than crisp or graceful.

 

Third fall and the work on Satanico's left arm from 10 or so minutes ago feels like a distant memory, they never went back to that after the first fall. Satanico gets colour. A few hot near falls. Don't understand what the finish was.

 

This was not a very Lucha-y match. Felt more structured, first fall shine, second fall heat, third fall finish over 25+ mins. That said, there was no real long-term psychology. Very spirited performance from Koshinaka, a worker I know virtually nothing about. I honestly thought Satanico brought the match down in parts. Not bad, but the first fall seems somewhat dislocated from the rest of the match and the finishes of each fall were abrupt and poor. I was surprised to see a Japanese guy apparently playing a babyface role in Mexico. He seemed to have the crowd behind him too.

 

***1/2

[goc]

This was not a very Lucha-y match. Felt more structured, first fall shine, second fall heat, third fall finish over 25+ mins. That said, there was no real long-term psychology. Very spirited performance from Koshinaka, a worker I know virtually nothing about. I honestly thought Satanico brought the match down in parts. Not bad, but the first fall seems somewhat dislocated from the rest of the match and the finishes of each fall were abrupt and poor. I was surprised to see a Japanese guy apparently playing a babyface role in Mexico. He seemed to have the crowd behind him too.

 

***1/2

I'm not trying to pick on you but this is one of the reasons you get so much negative feedback when you start talking about lucha. The idea that a match structured in that way is "not very Lucha-y" is not based on ACTUAL lucha but some weird idea you've created in your head of what lucha is. That's a pretty standard way for a lucha match to be structured.

 

I'm glad you're going back to the Lucha 80s set though as I know you liked more of what you watched from that set than you disliked.

[ohtani's jacket]

I doubt that a young guy on an excursion to Mexico, in what was likely his first singles match in the country, was brought down by an experienced vet like Satanico. The young Japanese guys generally struggled on these excursions facing all sorts of problems with the language barrier and a fair degree of culture shock. Wrestling wise, he'd probably spent a few months working trios bouts in order to learn the style, how to work from the right, and so on. In fact, I'd wager the reason they bought him in a match with Satanico was because they knew Satanico could carry him (and that's a pun, brother.) They did the same thing with their star project, Atlantis, coming off the 1983 Anniversary Show.

The reason Satanico's bumps look strange may have something to do with how hard the lucha mats are. Or it may be Satanico being awesome.

[JerryvonKramer]

Going to try watching with minimal notes to see if it helps.

 

Lucha 3.2

El Satanico y Espectro Jr. v. El Faraon y La Fiera (8/12/84)

 

Somewhat compromised by VQ and clipping so found this very hard to follow.

 

Can't rate.

 

Lucha 3.3

Gran Cochise vs. Satanico (9/14/84)

 

There's a title on the line that looks like Hogan's 85 title with the flags around the belt.

 

A sleep-inducing mat-based affair in the first fall gives way to some intrigue as Satanico works the left arm which plays through the finish into the second fall. Sound psychology without being that fun to watch. Cochise manages to injure Satanico's arm with an elbow and so he has a section working the arm too now. I thought this second fall was very poor, arm work went nowhere, counter exchanges looked silly worked at a very sloppy pace and the small package three-count came out of nowhere.

 

By the third fall the arm stuff seems a distant memory as both guys liberally do power spots with their injured arms. Cochise even applies an arm hold on the wrong arm at one point, not even any pretence of continuity. They sell exhaustion over the next few near falls so things become lethargic just when I'd want an escalation of violence.

 

A dynamic emerges in which Cochise can't put Satanico away, and his escapes become increasingly desperate and the crowd seems to get behind him.

 

I did not think this was very good. The best section was towards the end of the first fall and into the second during which Satanico executed a game plan on Cochise's left arm, but the match fell apart a bit after this point. I'm not sure they'd done enough to earn the exhaustion in the third fall, and I'm not sure that they'd told the story well enough to establish Cochise 's apparent dominance which made Satanico an underdog for the crowd in the third fall. There was no continuity in the story of the match or in the long-term selling, which was non-existent. Execution was sloppy throughout. Some of the quick counter exchanges looked good but they weren't enough to save this one.

 

***

[Loss]

It's been ages since I've seen Satanico-Koshinaka but the visual that stands out most in my head when thinking about it is of the sunset flip attempt from Koshinaka being resisted by Satanico. Mid Atlantic hardly has an exclusive on that spot, but for some reason, that reminded me of Mid Atlantic in how it was done. I thought it was pretty cool and kind of atypical also. My memory is that Koshinaka worked that match as more of a classic U.S.-style babyface in the Steamboat vein than he would even in Japan.

[WingedEagle]

Looking forward to seeing you pick back up the lucha set and hopefully other 80s hits. I should really add some notes / thoughts as I work through the New Japan and Horsemen footage.

[ohtani's jacket]

Gran Cochise vs. Satanico may be my all-time favourite lucha match. Either that or Blue Panther vs. Atlantis from '91.

 

Let me dig up my review of it. I wrote this back in 2008 and might a different view point on these days.

 

 

Gran Cochisse vs. Satanico, NWA World Middleweight Championship, Arena Mexico 9/14/84

This is one of the great lucha matches; a "Greco-Roman" classic with a dramatic shift in paradigm from rudo challenger to numero uno.

People often make the mistake of thinking Gran Cochisse was at the end of his career here, but he'd go on to compete for and hold this title for a few more years, as well as capturing the UWA World Junior Light Heavyweight Championship four years later, so he was a formidable middleweight champion at the time. He'd beaten Satanico a month earlier, so this was a return match in true style.

Despite being wrestled in the Greco-Roman style, Satanico was clearly a rudo technician. There was nothing illegal in the way he grappled; it was in the details. The way he snapped at the ref that his shoulders weren't on the mat; his anger at the force with which Cochisse broke an early waistlock; the dismissve way he threw him to the mat after making him submit. It was those details that really told the story.

There was nothing in it in the early going, and the wrestling was to die for. Satanico was left favouring his arm after Cochisse absolutely pried open a waistlock and from that point on it was a red rag to a bull. Satanico was the aggressor and wanted to hurt Cochisse, which is as good a wrestling story as you need. For some reason, the ref made him wipe his arm with his corner man's towel. Coming out of his corner, Satanico caught Cochisse with a vicious takeover snapmere that sent Cochisse flying out of the ring and from there he never relinquished the fall.

In the second caida, Satanico set about separating the shoulder. Perfectly legal, but he made it look cynical. There are laws about title matches in Mexico, written or unwritten, and Satanico with his hands raised to the ref was pushing the boundaries. But this is where the paradigm began to shift.

To my way of thinking, selling is the greatest thing in professional wrestling.

As soon as Cochisse reversed a wristlock the other way, Satanico was down on one knee. He was struggling to get up; face first on the canvas. Convulsing, spitting shit up. If it sounds over the top it wasn't because there's never been anyone better at selling. Ordinarily, Cochisse would get a submission and that would be that, but these guys went one better. Satanico broke the submission and they ended up on all fours butting heads.

And then they unleashed.

In lucha, guys don't really unleash until the final fall, but this was something special.

However, it was nothing compared to the final fall. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the third fall was the greatest I've seen in lucha.

If Satanico was a rudo challenger to begin with, in the third fall he was simply a luchador fighting for a title. The submission attempts and pinning counters were incredible. I can't even begin to describe them. You'll have to see them for yourself. Satanico sold until he was an underdog. Cochisse gave all that a champion could possibly give. On and on they fought, until they were out on their feet. The spot that summed it up was when they were on all fours again, only this time they could barely face each other.

Somebody had to win and against the odds it was Satanico. As the publico roared their approval, never before had I seen a rudo win such public favour. For a night, Satanico was numero uno. Y'know I've seen rudos cheat to win, even in title matches, but what Satanico did here was a remarkable bit of drama. If he's not the greatest luchador of the past thirty five years, I don't know who is.

As a post script to this, Gran Cochisse won the title back a mere sixteen days later, but this night belonged to Lopez.

[Matt D]

This is what I wrote in 2013. I almost assure you I wouldn't feel the same way now (even if I might feel along the same lines):

 

 

 

There are other first falls that I think tell stronger stories or are more aggressive, or more focused. This one works in a slightly different way. The ones I've liked so far are either about speed vs power or about wanting to actually hurt someone (even in some of the title style matches, like in the last Satanico one). This to me was more about really wanting to win, which I think is a much more difficult thing to get across. You get the sense that Satanico especially is not just trying to win but trying to win within the confines of the tradition. I kind of liken him to 85 Tully, where he came into every match wanting to play it straight but ultimately got outclassed, except for the scope and stage is bigger here, and Satanico is more prepared. I have no idea if that's accurate, but it's the feeling I get from getting to know him earlier in the set. So yes, other, stronger first falls, but this, to me, is more definitive for what everyone told me a Lucha Title Match's first fall should be. It's the most iconic of the bunch.

I think there's really that same element of gamesmanship in the second fall too. There is really the potential of a very sophisticated story here, and I think one reason why it won't do as well as the MS-1 brawl is that there just isn't as much evidence that it's there. There's a lot more connecting of dots necessary. I think, if you really watch the 83 MS-1 match, you can't help but see the story. It's minimalist and primal. This, here, in the second fall, has elements of both guys going to the same well, and when neither can really get an advantage they end up on the ground like frustrated beasts. Cochisse gets a lightning fall out of nowhere.

I do think a lot of the third fall is about whether or not an old dog can change his stripes. The stakes are so high that Cochisse obviously feels like he can't give him the chance and he can't afford not to take advantage after he crosses the line (before Satanico crosses it for him?). Satanico's selling and body language is amazing in the third fall, as other people have said. I feel like he's almost too good at selling on the set. There are earlier matches where you want to have sympathy for the devil. Here, you finally get to. He hangs on, avoids, just barely, the low blow (Which i probably give too much weight to but it really stood out), and he wins while keeping his head above water. This is one of those times where it's almost a shame that wrestling is a never-ending, serialized form of fiction, because it seems like this is a perfect ending for Satanico, while knowing, of course, that if it has to go one even another day, he's going to end up back in his old ways, because he's this embodiment of sleazy darkness.

The problem with the match is that I honestly don't know how much of that i just pulled out of my ass. We all have slightly different readings of it. We all have some similarities. People who know lucha the best kind of look at some of us like we're morons or just plain wrong here, and I don't know. People said that I read too much into the Hour Long Draw that won the AWA set but I felt really confident about that from the work. Here, I feel like there's a cool story in my head but I just don't know if it's actually one backed-up by the undeniably interesting ringwork. I didn't feel a lot of it last time the first time I saw it (and i was watching really closely) after all.

 

It's an awesome sign of how little confidence I had in my lucha views in 2013 just a few matches in. Now, I'll go and explain at length why I can't stand Volador, Jr.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've been reading around and have been legit shocked to learn that this is almost like a Steamboat vs Flair or Dory vs Brisco of lucha. Not just a five star match but a "match of ages".

 

I had no idea, but that should not change anything in my review which were my honest impressions. I just wanted to note that I wasn't being deliberately iconoclastic or anything like that.

 

I might watch it again given some of the other reviews I've read now, including OJ's. Just to see if I might see what they can.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've never done this before but after reading OJ, Elliott, Matt D, Exposer and dawho5, with several calling this one of the all-time greatest performances from Satanico, I felt compelled to re-review this trying to keep all their observations in mind.

 

Lucha 3.3

Gran Cochise vs. Satanico (9/14/84)

 

I noticed some more of the character elements here, especially Satanico's subtle heeling in the first two falls and Cochise working rougher in the third. The match actually felt faster than the first time I watched it, they keep things moving a fair bit. I also appreciated the fluidity of the counter exchanges a bit more.

 

Satanico's selling in the third fall *is* really good, I mean he does make those holds look very painful and the selling is as good as a Jack Brisco or Rick Martel. I was also able to see elements of "the chess match" in the third fall a bit more.

 

It's enough for me to want to bump the rating up, but sadly I'm still not seeing an all-time match or performance. I wish I could see it but I can't.

 

****

[Matt D]

I'm curious what I'd think about it now. I'll try to rewatch it next week.

[WingedEagle]

I'll need to check this out over the weekend. Any context needed or can I dive right in?

[Dylan Waco]

I've been reading around and have been legit shocked to learn that this is almost like a Steamboat vs Flair or Dory vs Brisco of lucha. Not just a five star match but a "match of ages".

 

I had no idea, but that should not change anything in my review which were my honest impressions. I just wanted to note that I wasn't being deliberately iconoclastic or anything like that.

 

I might watch it again given some of the other reviews I've read now, including OJ's. Just to see if I might see what they can.

 

It's probably my favorite singles match of all time.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm not sure I would put Satanico vs. Gran Cochisse on the level of Flair vs. Steamboat or Dory vs. Brisco. We don't have enough footage to judge how good it truly is. It's the best of the Satanico footage we have from '84, but for all we know he may have had better title matches with other people, or there may have been better title matches between different workers. What we do know for sure is that it was nowhere near as important as those NWA title feuds.

 

All I can really say is that it's a wonderful match; one of the best from the limited footage we have. I'm not sure what star rating I would give it, but even if I agreed with you that it wasn't much higher than four stars, I would still consider it one of the all-time great lucha matches. I think I've said it before, but to me if a match is four stars it's in a pantheon along with every other match I've considered four stars or above. I honestly wouldn't give a match four stars if I had as many criticisms of it that you did of the bout.

 

I had forgotten that Dylan thought so highly of it. I think it finished 6th in the DVDVR voting ahead of Perro Aguyao vs. Sangre Chicana, which is another of my all-time favourite lucha bouts.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well I mean reading the reviews you guys helped me see some more of the positives; four stars is pretty high praise. I dug early part of the match more, and I guess focusing on the character stuff I was willing to forgive some of the inconsistencies a bit more. It's not an exact science.

 

That puts it on par with something like Dory vs. Horst Hoffman from '75 or Midnights vs Rock n Rolls (5/23/84). I don't give 4.25 as a rating so 4.5 is very high and 4.75 is top 100 territory.

[elliott]

I watched Satanico vs Cochisse again within the last two or so months and would probably have it in my all time top 10.

 

I compared it to Flair vs Steamboat, but that deserves an explanation because there's an implication to comparing something to Flair vs Steamboat. Satanico vs Cochisse isn't some decade running feud with a dozen terrific singles matches on tape. It is a single match. If I had to compare any lucha rivarly to the Flair vs Steamboat rivalry, I would point to Santo vs Casas. When I compared Satanico vs Cochisse to Flair vs Steamboat, I mean to suggest that I view it as the pinnacle of the style. Satanico vs Coshisse is to Lucha Title matches as Flair vs Steamboat (pick whatever match you think is best) is to NWA title matches. If you asked "Whats the perfect NWA title match?" my gut reaction would be "WrestleWar" if you asked "Whats the perfect lucha title match?" my gut reaction would be "Satanico vs Cochisse." Its not a defining feud in the way Flair vs Steamboat or Dory vs Brisco or Misawa vs Kawada is. But I view it as a singularly defining match if that makes sense?

 

Also agree with all the stuff OJ says about not knowing if its the best Satanico title match or if other guys had better title matches due to lack of footage. Its also interesting to note, and I assume I learned this from OJ's lucha history lesson thread, that Cochisse was actually more well known for bloody brawls than as a title match/technical worker.

[Microstatistics]

On iPhone so minimal notes

 

Lucha 3.1

Satanico vs. Shiro Koshinaka (Hair vs. Hair) (7/30/84)

 

Very good arm work from Koshinaka in the first fall, laser focus, good intensity. Pin was too sudden though.

 

They go to selling like they've been in a long war way too quickly in the second fall, I'm not buying it. Pin comes very suddenly after a sloppy suplex from Satanico. Somehow Satanico moves like a sack of potatoes falling on the mat in both his offense and bumping, quite unusual. More towards scrappy than crisp or graceful.

 

Third fall and the work on Satanico's left arm from 10 or so minutes ago feels like a distant memory, they never went back to that after the first fall. Satanico gets colour. A few hot near falls. Don't understand what the finish was.

 

This was not a very Lucha-y match. Felt more structured, first fall shine, second fall heat, third fall finish over 25+ mins. That said, there was no real long-term psychology. Very spirited performance from Koshinaka, a worker I know virtually nothing about. I honestly thought Satanico brought the match down in parts. Not bad, but the first fall seems somewhat dislocated from the rest of the match and the finishes of each fall were abrupt and poor. I was surprised to see a Japanese guy apparently playing a babyface role in Mexico. He seemed to have the crowd behind him too.

 

***1/2

 

Not being judgmental or anything since this is all subjective but the idea of a green Koshinaka (who I like mind you) going to Mexico in 84 and having to carry Satanico to a good match is the most bizarre thing I have ever heard in wrestling. Also in no way was Koshinaka the babyface.

 

Anyways, I am probably the only one who thinks this match is not just great, but one of the best of all time. Unique and brilliantly executed story of the Local anti-hero vs. evil foreigner. Perfectly paced and structured. Amazing brawling and selling. Clever Finish too. *****

[JerryvonKramer]

Seemed like he was being cheered to me.