Is it possible to be too ignorant to enjoy Japanese wrestling - or do I secretly agree with Vince Russo

[thebrainfollower]

So I've been giving this a fair amount of thought lately. I've got a very small collection of Japanese matches on my hard drive, probably less than 50 as opposed to say about 1000 80's and early 90's North American matches. And the vast majority of those involve at least one US based wrestler.

 

I was thinking about what Vince Russo said about US fans basically never caring about Japanese (or Mexican wrestling IIRC) wrestling enough to make it worthwhile. And while I hate to sort of kind of agree with that viewpoint I am thinking he might not be totally wrong.

 

The problem for me is context. With the exception of some smaller promotions (Central States, Continental) I know the basic storylines and histories of most of the matches in my collection. And that is important to me, being able to put things into context. It's probably why, however unfair, I prefer 80's WWF I was there and can remember it. And in the unlikely event I don't I can always listen to the commentary team and they usually fill me in (I don't know how comprehensible late 90's WCW low and midcard matches will be for viewers today given how little the matches are talked about).

 

But with Japanese wrestling I've got nothing. I wasn't a tape trader and I rarely if ever know the full history of what's going on. My ideal solution would be for the two best experts on 80's All and New Japan on this board (I'll leave you guys to fight out who that would be) to record audio commentaries for say the 100 best match sets. Doing them like Cornette and Meltzer on wrestling gold as opposed to play by play.

 

Would such a project appeal to anyone else or should I stay ignorant about Japanese wrestling?

[Death From Above]

My main appeal to Japan was always that there were long matches, generally more so than you would get in the US. For me it was always a somewhat athletic thing as opposed to "I hate Amurrican rasslin and it's stories" which isn't true at all. They are just different things but both good.

 

Backstory on Japan to me was always supplementary to that. I mean it's nice once I had it but never was a tipping point to me enjoying it I guess.

 

Then again I'm also a guy that's never understood how commentary is really important to wrestling and would probably be happy to get just raw footage with no talking. So I may not be your everyman. I do get how to fans of certain kinds of American wrestling the lack of angles/story build is going to be a hurdle but at the end of the day I just have trouble seeing it as a dealbreaker myself.

[thebrainfollower]

Fair enough. For me it's too much of a blank. For instance I've heard for years that Jumbo is the best wrestler of all time. That's all I know about him, that some people adore him. I have no more knowledge of him than something not into wrestling has of Ric Flair, and that makes it hard for me to get into his matches.

[JerryvonKramer]

Brain, I found watching All Japan from start to finish that you can basically work out a hell of a lot just through the crowd reactions and the way the dynamics shift. Jumbo vs. Tenryu was absolutely captiviating by the time I got to 1989 but the context was all there in the matches themselves. I went into the set knowing next to nothing and came out thinking Jumbo was a GOAT contender.

 

That said, when I watch the New Japan set for my 80s Catchup Thread, I'll be taking the Cowboy Wally shows with me for company:

 

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/cowboy-wally

 

They did live "watch throughs" in the same vein as goodhelmet and co did for the AWA set recently. I don't know if Cowboy Wally and whoever was on with him were "experts" -- actually I thought their knowledge of 80s WWF was pretty shocking on the one show I've listened to so far (they were watching DiBiase vs. Hogan), which put me off a bit -- but, it's got to be better than nothing right?

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't see how it has anything to do with ignorance. If it doesn't appeal to you then it doesn't appeal to you. I don't really buy this context stuff. Most of us started with no context and began from scratch. And since most fans don't understand much Japanese, you don't get the proper context anyway, just their interpretation of the booking and events. I think it's more important that you get a feel for the mood or tone of Japanese wrestling.

[thebrainfollower]

Shockingly good or shockingly ignorant?

[JerryvonKramer]

Well I do have the rather unrealistic expectation of hardcore fans to just know each and every detail of Hogan-era WWF like the back of their hand, so shockingly bad from my point of view. I see Cowboy Wally recently did commentary for the All Japan Champions Carnival 2013: http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...8762&cmd=tc

 

So maybe he's just a hardcore Japanese fan. There is someone out there providing what you want though.

[BrickHithouse]

I would suggest watching what you have, going in fresh without any input from anyone, and then seeing if you like it or not.

 

Don't let other people's opinions ruin it or allow it to alter your viewpoint when starting out.

[Childs]

I agree with OJ; there's no use in beating your head against the context wall. When I decided to get into Japanese wrestling seven or eight years ago, I read jdw's '90s pimping posts and some other threads at DVDVR, and then I just started watching the most acclaimed stuff. As Jerry said, it's not that hard to gain a feel for the most important wrestlers and rivalries. For one thing, they remained pretty consistent in NJ and AJ, with pushes of new stars developing very slowly. I mean, if it bothers you not to understand every word of commentary, that might be a problem. But there's not a good way around that. If you want to dive into the '90s, the yearbook threads here are a good resource and give a real sense of how things developed. Also, there are a ton of people here to field questions.

[thebrainfollower]

Thanks. So I'm going to begin my journey with everything Meltzer gave 5 stars to from 1984-1989. Why that year I have no idea, other than it's my first wrestling memory. My going into this totally ignorant might make interesting reading. BTW if anyone has any "But you need to watch THIS" as well from those years chime in with that. Or any other thoughts or opinions.

 

Is there a thread already for generic 80's Japanese reviews or should I just post thoughts here?

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd say some of the Terry Funk stuff from 83 is "unmissable".

[khawk20]

Thanks. So I'm going to begin my journey with everything Meltzer gave 5 stars to from 1984-1989. Why that year I have no idea, other than it's my first wrestling memory.

I'd actually suggest finding some Meltzer 4 star matches first, and then go to the 5-star stuff, to see if you can notice a difference in the match quality, presentation, etc.

 

Might be a different way to get a feel for Japanese wrestling. Just a suggestion.

[jdw]

You either find it enjoyable, or not. That's similar to wrestling in general, and pretty much everything else. There's no point in beating yourself up over it.

 

Take futbol/soccer. I played it through high school. Watched it through that period in the 70s through mid-80s. Watch it now. So take it on two levels:

 

Level 1 - The Most Basic

 

Lots of people are bored shitless by the sport, period. That's fine. Folks don't have to enjoy it, no does it impact me if they don't like it. We have that will all sorts of sports and entertainment - some folks like something, and some don't.

 

Level 2 - Specifics

 

I can't watch the MLS. Just bores me to death, I find the quality mediocre, and I don't care about the teams or players. Call me a snob: I've been watching the EPL for 20 years, and the old English 1st Division back to the 70s. On the other hand, I really don't care to watch Stoke vs Sunderland either because, well... they kind of suck a lot too. Unless there's relegation involved, then it's morbidly fun.

 

Anyway...

 

Even within my love of futbol, there's some stuff I go out of my way to watch: my team Manchester United, along with usually one other team whose quality is high they I want to pick up stuff on. Barca is the current, but it was Chelsea in Mou's first run, or the Gunners before that, and Juve & Milan in the 90s. I follow my team, and also try to keep an eye on either the competitors or the state of the art as well. Two teams, I tend to grab all I can of them. In addition to that, I grab other games that look interesting, be it keeping an eye on rivals, or a match up of two good teams. I watch what I like most of the time, and some stuff that I feel I need to watch to keep up with the season and how other key teams are playing.

 

Wrestling is the same. Watch what you like. With in the genre/type that you like, there may be some things that you probably aren't going to like... but fell like you have to. Before I pulled the plug on regularly watching the WWE, that would be Triple H matches: I knew I was likely not going to enjoy them, but they were kind of important to keep track of what was going on the WWE. In turn, I really didn't give two shits about TNA, and didn't have time to watch it compared to other stuff I wanted to watch, or read, or game-play in my rec&relaxation time.

 

So don't worry about it if you don't care about Puroresu. I wouldn't put it in the context of Russo, since he's a totally fucking idiot. Just put it in the context of yourself: doesn't do much for me, and there's a lot of other things I want to spend time on.

 

John

[jdw]

As a side tangent...

 

If you have interest, my recommendation would be to do something like grab the 1992 or 1993 Yearbook. Watch the stuff in order, US, Mexico and Japan. Before or after watching the stuff, read the thread on each match. Rather than doing just pure "Best of" and jumping into the middle of the deep end, you're watching stuff in a little bit of context. Not just the Japanese stuff, but the US stuff as well.

 

I think others could recommend which of those is a better set to get a wide variety of stuff on. I know 1990 is the start of the decade, but 1992 and 1993 have some of that interesting stuff like SMW in support of WWF and WCW, along with second level Japanese promotions in addition to AJPW and NJPW and AJW. Both are kind of loaded with good stuff.

[WingedEagle]

I was going to add the exact same thing as JDW -- the yearbook threads are a hell of a resource for someone who's watched much of what's on the sets, so I would think they should be beyond invaluable for someone going into the material fresh. That's the case for me with a lot of the NJ and some of the joshi, as I'm already familiar with most AJ. The threads in there should provide you with a great sense of the micro and macro context for much of it.

 

John, are your DVDVR pimping posts that Childs mentioned above still available?

[anarchistxx]

My advice would be not to just watch a ton of 5* matches. Not only will you not get a feel for the overall style and vibe, you will also get burned out pretty quickly. My five year hiatus from watching wrestling started when I had about 100 DVDs that were nearly all 'Best Of' comps for promotions, wrestlers, styles etc. By all means dive in with some of the best stuff, but be sure to watch some shorter matches, less known stuff, things that are interesting or curiosities or not acclaimed. That will make you appreciate the best stuff more.

 

Also, if you are watching supposedly 5* matches then you will go in with massive expectations, and most likely be disappointed. Try to watch things without reading too much about them first.

 

More than anything just progress organically. Rather than draw up a list of 'Must See' matches, just jot down a few things you want to see and follow it naturally from there. It is the same with music or reading; you don't really get enjoyment from slogging through a '100 Best Albums Of All Time' list. What is more rewarding is discovering a great album, reading about it and the artist, getting led to other things, similar records, things that influenced it. Then things start to take on a context.

 

Watch certain things chronologically as well, if you want to get invested in some sort of story. 06/09/95 in isolation is just another match, albeit an incredibly good one. But if you watch all the Kawada/Misawa stuff in the years leading up to it, the payoff is all the better, and you get a feel for the story and the emotion.

 

If you're going to start in the 80s I'd suggest going with Jumbo/Kerry, as that has a lot of elements you'd get in a big US title match in the same timeframe.

[Negro Suave]

I disagree with the idea that context doesn't matter and that we were all blank slates coming in. We certainly are not blank slates when it comes to wrestling the context is the context of American storytelling. Of overcoming adversity or great odds and still coming through fighting and winning. This is the basic central story to professional wrestling in the states. Japan follows more of the storyline of Japanese story telling. It is more of humility triumphing over arrogance. That being humble an earnest and honorable will allow you to win.

 

We are products of our environment and I think at least understand the cultural story to understand why things work.

[sek69]

I never understood the idea that an English speaker (covering the bases of US/Canada/UK) couldn't get into Japanese or Mexican wrestling due to cultural or language barriers. While styles may be different, pro wrestling is not unlike music in being universal. I've been following CMLL every week on TV for the last 2-3 years and have had no problem following angles and storylines. Sometimes they lose me on promos, but it still comes down to Wrestler/Team A have an issue with Wrestler/Team B and shit's going to go down.

[ohtani's jacket]

I disagree with the idea that context doesn't matter and that we were all blank slates coming in. We certainly are not blank slates when it comes to wrestling the context is the context of American storytelling. Of overcoming adversity or great odds and still coming through fighting and winning. This is the basic central story to professional wrestling in the states. Japan follows more of the storyline of Japanese story telling. It is more of humility triumphing over arrogance. That being humble an earnest and honorable will allow you to win.

 

We are products of our environment and I think at least understand the cultural story to understand why things work.

My apologies if I've misunderstood you, but it's easy to pick up the context from American wrestling as the announcing and the promos are all in English. A kid can start watching and following it, as many of us did as children. And children by and large don't need context as they learn as they go, though I do remember asking an uncle of mine all sorts of stupid questions when I first discovered wrestling. Japanese wrestling is a stab in the dark when it comes to those things. You can read up on it, read what other people have written or recommended, but a lot is lost even on hardcore viewers. Imagine how much less you'd understand about American workers if you couldn't understand what they were saying or what they were feuding about. You could still get a sense of atmosphere and emotion, but a lot of the nuances would be lost and that's generally what happens with Japanese wrestling. I'm sure there are Japanese storytelling traits you can find in Japanese wrestling, but overcoming adversity or great odds and still coming through fighting and winning is actually probably the most overwhelming theme in all of Japanese literature, though it often has a tragic, if not pessimistic outcome. Humility isn't a hugely defining characteristic of Japanese workers. I wouldn't call Choshu, Hokuto, Akira Maeda or Aja Kong humble for example. Nor Takada, Ozaki, Chigusa or Jumbo Tsuruta.

[ohtani's jacket]

I never understood the idea that an English speaker (covering the bases of US/Canada/UK) couldn't get into Japanese or Mexican wrestling due to cultural or language barriers. While styles may be different, pro wrestling is not unlike music in being universal. I've been following CMLL every week on TV for the last 2-3 years and have had no problem following angles and storylines. Sometimes they lose me on promos, but it still comes down to Wrestler/Team A have an issue with Wrestler/Team B and shit's going to go down.

I don't know about CMLL TV these days, but in the past lucha booking has been hugely confusing. Understanding the commentary from my experience would be a huge boon. Of course, I still find ways to enjoy it, but I still find things like the Santo heel turn difficult to follow.

[Loss]

Expectation is the creator of disappointment. We need to come up with a "Puroresu Primer" comp and have Will make it so we have something to point people to.

 

Accessible wrestling that samples all the styles and gives lots of stuff worth seeing without giving away the store right away.

[Tim Cooke]

Expectation is the creator of disappointment

So true

[thebrainfollower]

I will hold off until I see that comp made then.

[Zenjo]

The funny thing is that a longtime Puro fan probably understands the commentary as well as a Japanese person who had never watched wrestling.

 

The only reason to watch wrestling in a language you don't understand is because you want to see superior quality or at least different style matches. If you watch wrestling primarily to follow storylines then it makes little sense as you don't get subtitles, and US wrestling would give you more entertainment from that regard anyway. Japanese wrestling isn't that hard to follow, but you've got to be watching it for the right reasons.

[Loss]

The storylines are still there in Japanese wrestling. Wrestling matches themselves usually follow a storyline, and that's not even unique to Japan.