WON HOF 2013 discussion

[soup23]

I am alarmed that Owen Hart got 74 votes.

[Bix]

I need to re-read my own Villano III bio. I was out of the loop for so long that I wouldn't remember most of that stuff anymore. But yeah, we will definitely re-work that one.

Is that online somewhere? A quick google search gave me a dead link. I think I found the Ray Mendoza one though.

 

http://luchawiki.org/index.php?title=Villano_III

 

Pretty sure all of Jose's bios were ported over to LuchaWiki when it effectively replaced La Arena.

[Matt D]

And here I was excited because I just found it here of all places:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=2741132

 

Yep, you guys managed a whole two pages of discussion in 2005. Charles' "Should get in/should not get in" list is pretty interesting though.

 

I'm going to separate these into four categories:

 

Should go in

Shouldn't go in

Unsure

Need more info

 

Here's where I stand on everyone at this point:

 

Should go in:

Gene & Ole Anderson

Carlos Colon

Fabulous Freebirds (Michael Hayes & Terry Gordy & Buddy Roberts)

Eddy Guerrero

Volk Han

Aja Kong

Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey & Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane)

Dick Murdoch

Blue Panther

Rock & Roll Express

Sting

Kiyoshi Tamura

John Tolos

 

Shouldn't go in:

Arn Anderson

Owen Hart

Hiroshi Hase

HHH

Curt Hennig

Chris Jericho

Mark Lewin

Fabulous Moolah

Don Muraco

Paul Orndorff

Rick Rude

Sabu

Seiji Sakaguchi

Jimmy Snuka

 

Unsure:

Jun Akiyama

Red Bastien

Masakatsu Funaki

Ivan Koloff

Masa Saito

Kensuke Sasaki

Wilbur Snyder

Yoshihiro Takayama

Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker

Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods

 

Need more info:

Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto)

Jose Lothario

Lonnie Mayne

Villano III

Dr. Wagner Sr.

Thanks, Bix.

[Grimmas]

Holy crap, a wrestling match hall of fame!

 

What a fun idea, I love it!

[WingedEagle]

We talked some about Punk and Bryan on the podcast. I wouldn't vote for either guy myself, but I think it is going to be really hard to seriously argue against Bryan, if you were someone pushing Tanahashi.

How are their cases at all similar? No one is crediting Bryan with any period as a company's ace but rather an incredibly long and sustained period of work. I don't remember seeing anyone suggest that Tanahashi's candidacy and election this year was solely due to his work but rather his work in tandem with his run on top and impact on business, primarily over the last two years.

 

Leaving aside whether you think they belong, because that is irrelevant, I don't see any way to pretend that their resumes for inclusion are remotely comparable.

[cheapshot]

We talked some about Punk and Bryan on the podcast. I wouldn't vote for either guy myself, but I think it is going to be really hard to seriously argue against Bryan, if you were someone pushing Tanahashi.

How are their cases at all similar? No one is crediting Bryan with any period as a company's ace but rather an incredibly long and sustained period of work. I don't remember seeing anyone suggest that Tanahashi's candidacy and election this year was solely due to his work but rather his work in tandem with his run on top and impact on business, primarily over the last two years.

 

Leaving aside whether you think they belong, because that is irrelevant, I don't see any way to pretend that their resumes for inclusion are remotely comparable.

 

Tanahashi was voted in by many just for his workrate from comments I have seen, so I can see how Dylan is drawing a comparison.

 

The jury is still out for me on HIS impact on NJ becoming 500% more profitable. Like others have said, right place, right time.

[KrisZ]

Doc Jr. over the years has been one of the biggest draws in Mexico like Jose said....his power has diminished lately but when it comes to mainstream appeal he's in the top tier.

 

HBK is probably the lowest drawing ace in the HOF unless you count Angle.

[FedEx227]

The jury is still out for me on HIS impact on NJ becoming 500% more profitable. Like others have said, right place, right time.

To be fair though, isn't kinda how this sort of thing happens?

 

Isn't that essentially how every wrestling star was created. It's all about being talented but also being in the right promotion at the right time with the right opponents.

[cheapshot]

The jury is still out for me on HIS impact on NJ becoming 500% more profitable. Like others have said, right place, right time.

To be fair though, isn't kinda how this sort of thing happens?

 

Isn't that essentially how every wrestling star was created. It's all about being talented but also being in the right promotion at the right time with the right opponents.

 

Yes, but being right place, right time means to me that another wrestler of similar ilk to Tanahashi could of been in the same spot for the company to of been just as profitable. Of course there is no way to prove this.

 

We still haven't got conclusive proof that he is the main reason for the upturn in business. I looked again at Mookieghana's data and Meltzer response, and it was interesting to see that until 2012 NJ's released figures were ludicrous compared to the actual attendances. Maybe proving if he as big a draw as people say he is, can't be proved conclusively

[Bix]

The jury is still out for me on HIS impact on NJ becoming 500% more profitable. Like others have said, right place, right time.

To be fair though, isn't kinda how this sort of thing happens?

 

Isn't that essentially how every wrestling star was created. It's all about being talented but also being in the right promotion at the right time with the right opponents.

 

Yes, but the introduction of fairly cheap IPPVs in a culture where it was unprecedented (no PPVs for the vast majority of fans plus regular PPV being considerably more expensive to people who have satellite dishes) is something that theoretically could have done that at any time if the technology was ready. It's completely theoretical and thus unfair to use it as a solid argument against Tanahashi, but I think it's part of the equation.

[Steven]

Is Edge known friends with Dave? I get that he thinks Edge is a great wrestler and should get in because of that, but there's literally nothing else that makes Edge stand out. He was never a draw (aside from a whopping two weeks ratings jump when he first became champ), was never really over as a face until his last turn and his manager or valet almost always got more heel heat than he did. While he was never a "handpicked guy" like an Orton or Batista, he certainly was someone the company pushed and pushed until he was accepted as a main event guy through sheer attrition.

 

Speaking of Batista, it's amusing to see him drop off the ballot while Edge remains. While Edge was the superior wrestler (I guess), Batista at least could be considered a strong draw. He had the Wrestlemania against Triple H as a definite feather in his cap and has been noted to have increased attendance during his first reign. Edge, who has been touted as carrying the Smackdown brand, also had the Undertaker and Batista to assist him while Batista had to deal with Kane, Khali and post 04 JBL. I don't think either of them should be in the HOF, mind you, but I'd definitely close the gap if not eliminate both of them.

 

(As an aside, Dave pointed out on the WON radio show that Randy was looked at as the star of the Rated RKO team. Despite Orton wearing a version of Edge's entrance gear, being one to do the job in almost every match during their break up and being pinned clean in their blow off match. Okay.)

[kjh]

The jury is still out for me on HIS impact on NJ becoming 500% more profitable. Like others have said, right place, right time.

To be fair though, isn't kinda how this sort of thing happens?

 

Isn't that essentially how every wrestling star was created. It's all about being talented but also being in the right promotion at the right time with the right opponents.

 

Yes, but the introduction of fairly cheap IPPVs in a culture where it was unprecedented (no PPVs for the vast majority of fans plus regular PPV being considerably more expensive to people who have satellite dishes) is something that theoretically could have done that at any time if the technology was ready. It's completely theoretical and thus unfair to use it as a solid argument against Tanahashi, but I think it's part of the equation.

I think it was a solid argument to "wait and see", as there was no baseline to compare his iPPV business to and no perspective as to what it meant for the future.

[Bix]

Is Edge known friends with Dave? I get that he thinks Edge is a great wrestler and should get in because of that, but there's literally nothing else that makes Edge stand out. He was never a draw (aside from a whopping two weeks ratings jump when he first became champ)

One of which was a "live sex show" that led to them losing their fairly valuable deal with TSN in Canada, Edge's home country. Oops.

[Loss]

The idea that Edge wasn't a "chosen one" in WWE is laughable. They were trying to make him a top guy as early as 2002, and as a tag team, he and Christian were pushed in TV main events against the top singles stars of the time.

[Bix]

The jury is still out for me on HIS impact on NJ becoming 500% more profitable. Like others have said, right place, right time.

To be fair though, isn't kinda how this sort of thing happens?

 

Isn't that essentially how every wrestling star was created. It's all about being talented but also being in the right promotion at the right time with the right opponents.

 

Yes, but the introduction of fairly cheap IPPVs in a culture where it was unprecedented (no PPVs for the vast majority of fans plus regular PPV being considerably more expensive to people who have satellite dishes) is something that theoretically could have done that at any time if the technology was ready. It's completely theoretical and thus unfair to use it as a solid argument against Tanahashi, but I think it's part of the equation.

I think it was a solid argument to "wait and see", as there was no baseline to compare his iPPV business to and no perspective as to what it meant for the future.

 

Yeah, I'll agree with that.

[Steven]

That wasn't in response to a claim Dave made specifically, just a thought I had when he said Edge was a true success story when wishing him a happy birthday.

[WingedEagle]

We talked some about Punk and Bryan on the podcast. I wouldn't vote for either guy myself, but I think it is going to be really hard to seriously argue against Bryan, if you were someone pushing Tanahashi.

How are their cases at all similar? No one is crediting Bryan with any period as a company's ace but rather an incredibly long and sustained period of work. I don't remember seeing anyone suggest that Tanahashi's candidacy and election this year was solely due to his work but rather his work in tandem with his run on top and impact on business, primarily over the last two years.

 

Leaving aside whether you think they belong, because that is irrelevant, I don't see any way to pretend that their resumes for inclusion are remotely comparable.

 

Tanahashi was voted in by many just for his workrate from comments I have seen, so I can see how Dylan is drawing a comparison.

 

The jury is still out for me on HIS impact on NJ becoming 500% more profitable. Like others have said, right place, right time.

 

I heard a bit about folks commenting to that effect, but didn't see that his candidacy became one resting on work. Particularly in the pages of the WON, he was also getting significant credit for the rise of iPPV as a significant revenue stream for the company. If we're attributing the newfound love for his work to his hype there over the past couple years, I don't see see how one also dismisses his run on top for business. If I'm missing a piece of the puzzle as to how those voting in the Japan category view things, I'm definitely eager to see that.

 

Again, I'm not looking to get into it about the merits of his candidacy. I'm a huge fan of his work in-ring, and think he probably deserves credit for being top while PPV business sees this kind of rise, but also think its premature to definitively state that today. I'm just not a fan of dismissing that aspect of his resume or dismissing his role by saying it didn't matter who's on top. With that kind of logic you can argue it doesn't ever matter who was on top. If you stretch things enough you can always point to macroeconomic and other environmental factors any outcome.

 

EDIT: Point is I don't see where all of a sudden Tanahashi's candidacy became that of the Japanese Daniel Bryan. This was the first I've heard anyone even attempt to argue that Tanahashi is a strict workrate candidate.

[Cox]

The idea that Edge wasn't a "chosen one" in WWE is laughable. They were trying to make him a top guy as early as 2002, and as a tag team, he and Christian were pushed in TV main events against the top singles stars of the time.

I'd even go back as far as 2001. That year, he won KOTR, gets a high profile win on the Invasion PPV, wins the IC title, gets a high profile split feud with Christian where he goes over in the end, and beats Test in an IC/US title unification match at Survivor Series, which was the blowoff PPV for the Invasion. To say he wasn't chosen is ridiculous. If WWE got behind somebody now the way they got behind Edge in 2001, they wouldn't have problems creating stars.

[cheapshot]

We talked some about Punk and Bryan on the podcast. I wouldn't vote for either guy myself, but I think it is going to be really hard to seriously argue against Bryan, if you were someone pushing Tanahashi.

How are their cases at all similar? No one is crediting Bryan with any period as a company's ace but rather an incredibly long and sustained period of work. I don't remember seeing anyone suggest that Tanahashi's candidacy and election this year was solely due to his work but rather his work in tandem with his run on top and impact on business, primarily over the last two years.

 

Leaving aside whether you think they belong, because that is irrelevant, I don't see any way to pretend that their resumes for inclusion are remotely comparable.

 

Tanahashi was voted in by many just for his workrate from comments I have seen, so I can see how Dylan is drawing a comparison.

 

The jury is still out for me on HIS impact on NJ becoming 500% more profitable. Like others have said, right place, right time.

 

I heard a bit about folks commenting to that effect, but didn't see that his candidacy became one resting on work. Particularly in the pages of the WON, he was also getting significant credit for the rise of iPPV as a significant revenue stream for the company. If we're attributing the newfound love for his work to his hype there over the past couple years, I don't see see how one also dismisses his run on top for business. If I'm missing a piece of the puzzle as to how those voting in the Japan category view things, I'm definitely eager to see that.

 

Again, I'm not looking to get into it about the merits of his candidacy. I'm a huge fan of his work in-ring, and think he probably deserves credit for being top while PPV business sees this kind of rise, but also think its premature to definitively state that today. I'm just not a fan of dismissing that aspect of his resume or dismissing his role by saying it didn't matter who's on top. With that kind of logic you can argue it doesn't ever matter who was on top. If you stretch things enough you can always point to macroeconomic and other environmental factors any outcome.

 

I am definitely on the side of, if I had him on the ballot it would be purely for work rate alone. I may be wrong and dismissing things that may be staring others in the face, but I just don't see it, yet.

 

I think people aren't putting enough creedence in the "brand" of NJPW rather than pin pointing an individual as someone who has a draw. I am not going to sit here and say he didn't have positive effects on the gate, he did; what I am disputing is if that should be coupled with his level of workrate as an argument as to why he has been voted in this year.

 

I also am a massive fan of his in-ring work, and he does deserved to be heaped praise for it, I still think his induction was a few years too soon. That's just my opinion, I would never dismiss him completely as I can see his merits, but I don't feel he is the draw that people give him credit for.

[Cox]

Separate issue from what is being discussed here, but can't Dave set a rule that if you don't get voted in after so many years, you fall off the ballot? Owen Hart and Jimmy Snuka have been on since the first election in 1998. That's 16 elections, and neither of them are polling above 30%. They aren't ever going into the Hall of Fame. Can't we get them removed from the ballot and open it up to other candidates that might have a shot? The baseball HOF removes players after 15 ballots, that seems like plenty of time to make it in. At least table Snuka and Owen until they are Historical Candidate-eligible, because all they are doing right now is taking up room for other wrestlers who are still discussion-worthy.

[cheapshot]

Separate issue from what is being discussed here, but can't Dave set a rule that if you don't get voted in after so many years, you fall off the ballot? Owen Hart and Jimmy Snuka have been on since the first election in 1998. That's 16 elections, and neither of them are polling above 30%. They aren't ever going into the Hall of Fame. Can't we get them removed from the ballot and open it up to other candidates that might have a shot? The baseball HOF removes players after 15 ballots, that seems like plenty of time to make it in. At least table Snuka and Owen until they are Historical Candidate-eligible, because all they are doing right now is taking up room for other wrestlers who are still discussion-worthy.

I think this is a very valid point, and one I have just asked Dave about via Twitter.

[kjh]

The idea that Edge wasn't a "chosen one" in WWE is laughable. They were trying to make him a top guy as early as 2002, and as a tag team, he and Christian were pushed in TV main events against the top singles stars of the time.

I'd even go back as far as 2001. That year, he won KOTR, gets a high profile win on the Invasion PPV, wins the IC title, gets a high profile split feud with Christian where he goes over in the end, and beats Test in an IC/US title unification match at Survivor Series, which was the blowoff PPV for the Invasion. To say he wasn't chosen is ridiculous. If WWE got behind somebody now the way they got behind Edge in 2001, they wouldn't have problems creating stars.

I think Edge was someone who obviously had his big backers dating from his debut to the company (Jim Cornette, Jim Ross, Michael Hayes who was head booker on Smackdown for his run on top of that brand), but also had his key detractors too (Triple H, which might explain why he was on Smackdown so much). He also had the benefit of being a home grown guy and didn't have the taint of being a former WCW/ECW star.

 

Regarding New Japan's iPPV business, we really don't know how it's doing *today* after Meltzer stopped publishing the numbers, which is a problem for analysing wrestlers for the future.

[ohtani's jacket]

We still haven't got conclusive proof that he is the main reason for the upturn in business. I looked again at Mookieghana's data and Meltzer response, and it was interesting to see that until 2012 NJ's released figures were ludicrous compared to the actual attendances. Maybe proving if he as big a draw as people say he is, can't be proved conclusively

I think this is a key point. How can he be compared to other wrestlers from the past decade or so like Akiyama, Sasaki, Nagata or Suzuki when the numbers have been so heavily worked? With that NOAH Dome Show in 2004 that drew 58,000, the rumour was that the real number of ticket sales was 20,000, so how do you wade through all that and figure out whether Akiyama was a better draw than Tanahashi? Folks are relying on Dave to report the real numbers. On the Wrestling Culture podcast, Dylan questioned why Tanahashi's candidacy wasn't debated as heavily as John Cena's and I would argue that people simply don't get as much backstage knowledge or business details about Japan as they do about the US.

[RyanClingman]

I only that someone was going to vote for him, but I just can't imagine how anyone with a ballot even voted for AJ Styles. I know a few did as it was mentioned on the latest WO radio.

[Bix]

We still haven't got conclusive proof that he is the main reason for the upturn in business. I looked again at Mookieghana's data and Meltzer response, and it was interesting to see that until 2012 NJ's released figures were ludicrous compared to the actual attendances. Maybe proving if he as big a draw as people say he is, can't be proved conclusively

I think this is a key point. How can he be compared to other wrestlers from the past decade or so like Akiyama, Sasaki, Nagata or Suzuki when the numbers have been so heavily worked? With that NOAH Dome Show in 2004 that drew 58,000, the rumour was that the real number of ticket sales was 20,000, so how do you wade through all that and figure out whether Akiyama was a better draw than Tanahashi? Folks are relying on Dave to report the real numbers. On the Wrestling Culture podcast, Dylan questioned why Tanahashi's candidacy wasn't debated as heavily as John Cena's and I would argue that people simply don't get as much backstage knowledge or business details about Japan as they do about the US.

 

Even if the Noah dome shows were heavily papered, they still filled the dome, which similarly papered NJPW shows at the time didn't.