JerryvonKramer Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Magnum T.A. - better than Sting Lex Luger - better than Sting Triple H - better than Sting Bill Eadie - better than Sting Greg Valentine - flat out insane opinion Rick Rude - much better than Sting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Magnum T.A. - better than Sting Lex Luger - better than Sting Triple H - better than Sting Bill Eadie - better than Sting Greg Valentine - flat out insane opinion Rick Rude - much better than Sting None of this is unfair. Rude I always found really, really boring. From Crockett to WWE to especially WCW. Took good bumps and had a cool gimmick. Valentine to me is like the epitome of average, but I guess I get why people like him. Post 1986 or so he was flat out bad, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Rude from 89 to 92 was probably a top 10 US worker in my view, even allowing for his penchant for sitting in chinlocks. He was better than average, you simply don't get heat like he got by being average. You don't have matches like he did with Warrior or Steamboat by being average. That said, I'd agree with the person who said he could really dog it in a match. When he didn't click with someone it was mostly bad (see Flair) and he was mostly pretty shitty before 89, even allowing for some cool stuff tagging with Manny. But at his peak there's no way he was average. With Valentine, why is he always judged post-peak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Rick Rude vs Ricky Steamboat Royal Rumble '88 & Rick Rude vs Masa Chono Halloween Havoc '92 are two of the worst matches i've ever seen that didn't involve women or low level indie talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Valentine is judged post peak because that is when he was most visible as a national player. It's the same thing with Patera sadly. This will read as a troll of W2BTD, but if I was forced to identify a wrestler who I find to be fundamentally middling, average and uninteresting, without necessarily being bad it would be Tanahashi. But then I also think Valentine is vastly better than any wrestler currently on the NJPW roster, so it's clear we are operating from different worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Yeah but Rude vs. Steamboat at Beach Blast 92 and Rude vs. Chono at NJPW G1 Climax 1992 are both great matches. We can say Rude was a good worker who could have great nights and real bad off nights. That doesn't make him average but inconsistent. Also, so it doesn't seem like I'm just picking on W2BTD, I'll chuck out some workers I consider to be average and stick my neck on the line too: Randy Rose Kevin Sullivan Fatu Tom Zenk Bad News Brown Robert Gibson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 When I watched tons of WCW years ago, I thought Rude was the best wrestler in the company in the best year in company history (1992). I have no clue if I would feel the same way now. Having said that I found him underwhelming in Texas, his WWF run is hit and miss (with strong highs to be sure) and his peak was very short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Yeah but Rude vs. Steamboat at Beach Blast 92 and Rude vs. Chono at NJPW G1 Climax 1992 are both great matches. We can say Rude was a good worker who could have great nights and real bad off nights. That doesn't make him average but inconsistent. Also, so it doesn't seem like I'm just picking on W2BTD, I'll chuck out some workers I consider to be average and stick my neck on the line too: Randy Rose Kevin Sullivan Fatu Tom Zenk Bad News Brown Robert Gibson I had Fatu typed out and took him off for some reason. I like his early tag team stuff but hate hate hate Rikishi with a passion. Tom Zenk I had typed out as well, until I thought about it and realized that I don't think he's average, I think he's terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Valentine is judged post peak because that is when he was most visible as a national player. It's the same thing with Patera sadly. This will read as a troll of W2BTD, but if I was forced to identify a wrestler who I find to be fundamentally middling, average and uninteresting, without necessarily being bad it would be Tanahashi. But then I also think Valentine is vastly better than any wrestler currently on the NJPW roster, so it's clear we are operating from different worlds. Believe me, I am very self aware as to what side of the tracks i'm on, and left some names off that average list that would have derailed this baby forever, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Fuck it, name em. My co-host dropped a bomb on my favorite wrestler of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 If you watch enough SST matches, I think it's clear to see that Samu was the good worker out of the two of them. I don't think they have a single good match after he's replaced by Samoan Savage. I absolutely HATE Tom Zenk, with burning passion, but his dropkick was okay and he could do a job as a lower midcarder jobbing out in 5 minutes to the latest heel. And Dylan - if we were to get super in-depth with Rude, I think 89 and 92 were the only years he was really great. Arguably he was actively bad before 89; and 90 and 93 were both disappointing. In 93 he should have never shaved his moustache off, it was the beginning of the end! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I also hate Tom Zenk, hatred of him is a uniting force between me and Joe, like our mutual love for Damien Wayne. Also I want to hear who Joe thinks is average/middle of the road, controversial or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Robert Gibson was great, Parv. You're high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I can't think of any average wrestlers. I'm trying. This is the downside of being too opinionated for your own good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Robert Gibson was great, Parv. You're high. Do you think he would have made it without Ricky? Now think about it the other way around. Would Ricky have made it? There's nothing about Gibson that suggests to me that he's anything above average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 He had already made it on the territories without Ricky when teaming with his brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Robert Gibson was great, Parv. You're high. Do you think he would have made it without Ricky? Now think about it the other way around. Would Ricky have made it? There's nothing about Gibson that suggests to me that he's anything above average. Gibson was great before Ricky with his brother. And no, I don't think Morton would be as fondly remembered without Robert. They were perfect together. And just because Ricky was one of the best of all time doesn't make Robert "average" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 He had already made it on the territories. So had Ron Bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I may throw out CM Punk here. I think he is a good wrestler but also one with numerous flaws and someone that gets way too much benefit of a doubt based on his anti-estblishment mentality. Here are the criticisms I see from him. 1. He is a very sloppy worker at times. Punk can have some terrible looking botches that would be laughed at on the internet if Nikki Bella had the same equivalent botch. People seem to shake it off for Punk for some reason. 2. Calls spots like crazy. Punk has gotten into Sid territory at times with this. I know its fake and perhaps the heightened production values of current WWE play a role in this, but learn to adapt and shut the fuck up. 3. Doesn't seem to have the wide repertoire of matches I would consider great. What is Punk's best sub 10 minute match? I can think of a few Rey Mysterio matches that might work here. 4. I will also call his ability to carry a wrestler into quesiton. Can someone name the last time Punk had a match with a worker that was elevated significantly because Punk was in there? Maybe something in ECW? He doesn't seem to have the Cesaro vs. Kingston from Main Event matches in his back pocket. I remember the anticipation for both his match vs. The Rock at last year's Rumble and especially vs. Dolph two years ago, and both were really disappointing affairs. I do think Punk is a good worker that has been in some great matches but I could honestly see some people with limited viewing putting Punk in their top 20 GOAT and I think that is absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Because Dylan made the power hitter reference about Nakamura, I think Punk and Nak are actually very similar in the long run. Both very flawed, but when you need them to put it together for a big match, there are few people that can touch him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 He had already made it on the territories. So had Ron Bass. You asked if he could make it without Ricky, The answer is yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Punk-Rey at WM26 was sub-10:00 and quite good. Also, I don't think it's fair to hold the Rock matches against Punk. Flair in his prime would have had trouble doing anything with 2013 Rock. I honestly don't see how those matches could have been any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Punk-Rey at WM26 was sub-10:00 and quite good. Also, I don't think it's fair to hold the Rock matches against Punk. Flair in his prime would have had trouble doing anything with 2013 Rock. I honestly don't see how those matches could have been any better. Hence, why I said Rey Mysterio might work here in my post. I thought the WM 26 match was fine, but I wouldn't call it good. Punk vs. Rock was extremely disappointing. I saw Flair have a better match in 1990 with Tom Zenk than Punk was able to in the second biggest show of the year with The Rock. Cena also had a better match the year before at Mania even though I don't think that is a great performance for him either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I really don't think it's a long list, and I've seen almost no Hansen from the back half of the '90s, but... The biggest problem I have with Hansen was that he wasn't as good in the US as he was in Puerto Rico and Japan. I can't think of a match he had stateside that came close to his career matches overseas. That's a pretty glaring mark on his GOAT candidacy in my book. He's also part of an early 80s Japanese era that I like less and less every time I see it, and he's not much of a mat worker. Not that you want Stan Hansen to work the mat, but he does from time to time and it's not great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 There's nothing wrong with being successful in only one place so I don't get that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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