Good not great wrestlers

[JerryvonKramer]

He had already made it on the territories.

So had Ron Bass.

 

You asked if he could make it without Ricky, The answer is yes.

 

There's making it and then there's making it.

[shoe]

He had already made it on the territories without Ricky when teaming with his brother.

 

True, but Ricky Gibson was already made in Memphis before Robert showed up. Robert clearly got the rub from Ricky status in Memphis. I like Robert, and think he's better than average. Though he owes a lot of his stardom to his brother, and to Morton.

[shoe]

I really don't think it's a long list, and I've seen almost no Hansen from the back half of the '90s, but...

The biggest problem I have with Hansen was that he wasn't as good in the US as he was in Puerto Rico and Japan. I can't think of a match he had stateside that came close to his career matches overseas. That's a pretty glaring mark on his GOAT candidacy in my book. He's also part of an early 80s Japanese era that I like less and less every time I see it, and he's not much of a mat worker. Not that you want Stan Hansen to work the mat, but he does from time to time and it's not great.

 

 

On the Hansen runs he had good runs in Memphis,WCW, and the WWF. I agree none of it compares to his Japan run. I think the biggest thing is lack of footage of big matches in Georgia. He was a huge star there. Though he had good matches with Idol, Luger, and Backlund in the states. Also OJ on your criteria Americans who only worked the U.S does that disqualify them from GOAT because they never worked Japan? What about the Luchadores?

[ohtani's jacket]

There's nothing wrong with being successful in only one place so I don't get that.

Hansen had enough runs in the territories to have had better matches. He wasn't some guy who found his niche in Japan. I'd find it odd if other American stars had only had great matches in Japan.

[Steven]

But the question was if Robert could make it without Morton. If he had never met Ricky M., he still probably could have had a decent career with his brother and afterwards.

[JerryvonKramer]

But the question was if Robert could make it without Morton. If he had never met Ricky M., he still probably could have had a decent career with his brother and afterwards.

Lots of average wrestlers made it in the territories or had decent careers. I guess the question would be could he have made it as far?

 

I personally think Gibson on his own would have been at jobber level once the territory days were over about the same level as Randy Rose. Also I love how W2BTD lists a pile of pretty good workers as average and it's my naming Gibson that gets attention. Is it just that I'm more fun to argue with?

[shoe]

But the question was if Robert could make it without Morton. If he had never met Ricky M., he still probably could have had a decent career with his brother and afterwards.

 

You said it yourself. If their was no Morton he would have coasted on his brothers rep. He's a decent worker who if he didn't catch lightning in a bottle with Morton would have been a middle of the road territory guy.

[PeteF3]

There's nothing wrong with being successful in only one place so I don't get that.

Hansen had enough runs in the territories to have had better matches. He wasn't some guy who found his niche in Japan. I'd find it odd if other American stars had only had great matches in Japan.

 

I'm not going to hold it up against the Kobashi matches or anything, but I wouldn't hesitate to call the Hansen/Luger bullrope match "great." I realize I may be overstating its case but I thought it was really, really awesome. Did the Can-Ams ever have a Stateside match as good as Hansen's best? Or Johnny Ace? Or Scott Norton? I'm not sure it's all that odd.

 

Hansen also has to get credit for his WWWF stardom. He may have stumbled back-asswards into that push because of a botched move, but regardless of the circumstances he still drew big money as the Man Who Broke Bruno's Neck (fact: Vince, Sr. was the only promoter I know of whose closed-circuit showing of Ali/Inoki was a success--because it was part of a larger show including the Hansen/Bruno blowoff). I know we're talking about working ability and not drawing power here, but that's a U.S. feud that has to be objectively regarded as a triumph for him.

 

Yoshiaki Fujiwara, before he reinvented himself via the UWF, was basically an undercard NJPW version of the Junkyard Dog or Rufus R. Jones. Better than late '80s Dog or Rufus, to be sure, but his matches all revolve around his iron head in progressively less interesting ways.

[NintendoLogic]

Punk-Rey at WM26 was sub-10:00 and quite good.

 

Also, I don't think it's fair to hold the Rock matches against Punk. Flair in his prime would have had trouble doing anything with 2013 Rock. I honestly don't see how those matches could have been any better.

Hence, why I said Rey Mysterio might work here in my post. I thought the WM 26 match was fine, but I wouldn't call it good.

 

Punk vs. Rock was extremely disappointing. I saw Flair have a better match in 1990 with Tom Zenk than Punk was able to in the second biggest show of the year with The Rock. Cena also had a better match the year before at Mania even though I don't think that is a great performance for him either.

 

Was 1990 Tom Zenk completely gassed two minutes into every one of his matches? And the Rock/Cena matches weren't good at all. Both the Punk matches blow them out of the water. Come on now.

[goodhelmet]

Hansen had the amazing match with green as grass Leon White in the AWA. He had super fun brawls in Memphis with Austin Idol. Hansen in the states was gold. The problem was he didn't stay here long in his runs.

[ohtani's jacket]

Did the Can-Ams ever have a Stateside match as good as Hansen's best? Or Johnny Ace? Or Scott Norton? I'm not sure it's all that odd.

I don't think anybody puts Hansen on the level of Johnny Ace or Scott Norton. Those are guys who found a niche in Japan. Hansen is compared to Ric Flair or Terry Funk.

[shoe]

Hansen produced good matches with slaughter, Blackwell, and Hennig in the AWA.

[soup23]

Punk-Rey at WM26 was sub-10:00 and quite good.

 

Also, I don't think it's fair to hold the Rock matches against Punk. Flair in his prime would have had trouble doing anything with 2013 Rock. I honestly don't see how those matches could have been any better.

Hence, why I said Rey Mysterio might work here in my post. I thought the WM 26 match was fine, but I wouldn't call it good.

 

Punk vs. Rock was extremely disappointing. I saw Flair have a better match in 1990 with Tom Zenk than Punk was able to in the second biggest show of the year with The Rock. Cena also had a better match the year before at Mania even though I don't think that is a great performance for him either.

 

Was 1990 Tom Zenk completely gassed two minutes into every one of his matches? And the Rock/Cena matches weren't good at all. Both the Punk matches blow them out of the water. Come on now.

 

I have yet to see one match from Zenk in 1990 where he didn't do one thing that wasn't incredibly stupid or had a performance I would call good. This whole argument is uncanny ability for you to deflect my original argument into something else. You said Flair in his prime couldn't have a good match with Rock in 2013, I threw up that 1990 Flair had a good match with a renowned shitty worker in Zenk. Now we want to compare Zenk to The Rock??? I also never called the Rock/Cena matches goo and in fact never said anything at all about the WM 29 match. I do think the WM 28 match is the best match that Rock has had since his comeback and really don't see much argument to the fact that Punk/Rock blew both of them out of the water. If that is the case, what would you rank the Rock vs. Punk match. Blowing something out the water to me means it tangibly has to be significantly better, not a "one match is ** another is **1/2".

[Dylan Waco]

I really don't think it's a long list, and I've seen almost no Hansen from the back half of the '90s, but...

The biggest problem I have with Hansen was that he wasn't as good in the US as he was in Puerto Rico and Japan. I can't think of a match he had stateside that came close to his career matches overseas. That's a pretty glaring mark on his GOAT candidacy in my book. He's also part of an early 80s Japanese era that I like less and less every time I see it, and he's not much of a mat worker. Not that you want Stan Hansen to work the mat, but he does from time to time and it's not great.

 

I think the consensus was that Hansen acquitted himself well on the AWA Set. Hell he was in my favorite singles match on the set, and had very good to great matches with old Crusher Blackwell, Sarge, green as grass Leon White, Bockwinkel, and Hennig. Also his early 90's WCW run seems to have held up better than expected based on discussions I've had/yearbook comments. Since that is the bulk of the U.S. Hansen we have, I'm not sure I'd go to the wall on the argument that he was much better elsewhere.

 

Also, I think Hansen is surprisingly solid working holds

[PeteF3]

Fuck I completely forgot about AWA Hansen.

 

Zenk had a good performance against Pillman at WrestleWar '92. So...he's got that going for him, I guess.

[Johnny Sorrow]

But the question was if Robert could make it without Morton. If he had never met Ricky M., he still probably could have had a decent career with his brother and afterwards.

Lots of average wrestlers made it in the territories or had decent careers. I guess the question would be could he have made it as far?

 

I personally think Gibson on his own would have been at jobber level once the territory days were over about the same level as Randy Rose. Also I love how W2BTD lists a pile of pretty good workers as average and it's my naming Gibson that gets attention. Is it just that I'm more fun to argue with?

 

Nah, you're just wrong.

[JerryvonKramer]

And I suppose you agree with him that Magnum TA was average then?

[goodhelmet]

Lots of average workers made it in the big leagues. However, if you look at post-RNR Gibson in SMW, he was still performing at a high level.

[shoe]

Magnum T.A. - better than Sting

Lex Luger - better than Sting

Triple H - better than Sting

Bill Eadie - better than Sting

Greg Valentine - flat out insane opinion

Rick Rude - much better than Sting

 

I would never call any of these guys average or run of the mill. I also like OMG, but can understand people not liking them . Greg Valentine on this list is major crimes offensive.

[shoe]

Lots of average workers made it in the big leagues. However, if you look at post-RNR Gibson in SMW, he was still performing at a high level.

 

Come on Will he went all Memphis heel in that run. I liked it, but it was mostly all character work . It also probably wouldn't have worked if he wasn't part of the hottest baby face act in the Rock n Roll Express that was on top for 2 years in SMW.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm not completely down on Gibson. I said this before:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5547868

 

If you'd asked me a few weeks ago I'd have said Fulton straight away too.

 

But I've seen lots of RnR matches recently (and in the past) where Gibson more than carries his fair share of the work in extended FIP segements or taking the hot tag.

 

RnRs worked "double heat" structured matches quite often that went long. They involved both guys playing FIP for 10 min+ stretches.

 

The problem for Robert is that Ricky Morton is just THAT much better than him in both roles.

 

--------------

 

Here's what I'd say:

 

- Fulton at his best is better than Gibson at his best, but Fulton can have real off nights, he can be a 8/10 or even a 9/10 but sometimes he can be a 4/10.

 

- Gibson's average level of performance is pretty solid, if unspectacular, he'll give you 7/10 every match and in that same match Morton will be giving you 9/10 or even 10/10

 

- I find it easier to get excited about Fantastics matches than I do about RnR matches

 

I will return to this thread later in the week because I have two MX vs. Fantastics TV matches lined up in my viewing soon.

And this: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5561711

 

I reckon Robert Gibson probably has the biggest ability vs no. of great matches variation of anyone. He's probably not quite as mediocre as people make out, but he's seldom much more than adequate, yet he's been in some awfully great matches.

 

We compared the RnRs to the Fantastics and Gibson was demonstrably the 4th guy, now we're comparing them to the Rockers and he's demonstrably the 4th guy. He's the 4th guy if you compare them to either version of the MX too. Reckon more than anyone he massively lucked out on that run. Without Morton, does anyone see Gibson being much more than a JTTS or even a flat-out jobber?

I'll give him a bit of credit where it is due, but still think that you could take anyone from Terry Taylor to Paul Roma and stuck him with Morton and it wouldn't have dented the RnRs success. In fact, it might have helped them because unlike Gibson, Taylor and Roma were actually "sexy" (sort of).

 

If a guy is that replaceable, can he really be that much better than average?

[NintendoLogic]

Punk-Rey at WM26 was sub-10:00 and quite good.

 

Also, I don't think it's fair to hold the Rock matches against Punk. Flair in his prime would have had trouble doing anything with 2013 Rock. I honestly don't see how those matches could have been any better.

Hence, why I said Rey Mysterio might work here in my post. I thought the WM 26 match was fine, but I wouldn't call it good.

 

Punk vs. Rock was extremely disappointing. I saw Flair have a better match in 1990 with Tom Zenk than Punk was able to in the second biggest show of the year with The Rock. Cena also had a better match the year before at Mania even though I don't think that is a great performance for him either.

 

Was 1990 Tom Zenk completely gassed two minutes into every one of his matches? And the Rock/Cena matches weren't good at all. Both the Punk matches blow them out of the water. Come on now.

 

I have yet to see one match from Zenk in 1990 where he didn't do one thing that wasn't incredibly stupid or had a performance I would call good. This whole argument is uncanny ability for you to deflect my original argument into something else. You said Flair in his prime couldn't have a good match with Rock in 2013, I threw up that 1990 Flair had a good match with a renowned shitty worker in Zenk. Now we want to compare Zenk to The Rock???

You know who else was a renowned shitty worker? The Rock during his comeback. Seriously, he was probably the worst wrestler in the world during that period. His cardio was worse than the Ultimate Warrior's, and he was so juiced that he was practically immobile. He made the Z-Man look like Ricky Steamboat.

 

I also never called the Rock/Cena matches goo and in fact never said anything at all about the WM 29 match. I do think the WM 28 match is the best match that Rock has had since his comeback and really don't see much argument to the fact that Punk/Rock blew both of them out of the water. If that is the case, what would you rank the Rock vs. Punk match. Blowing something out the water to me means it tangibly has to be significantly better, not a "one match is ** another is **1/2".

I'd say the Rumble match was close to **** with the NWO match a bit lower. The Cena matches topped out at ***. I have no interest in getting into a semantics debate, so if that doesn't meet your criteria for "blew out of the water," feel free to substitute whatever term you think is appropriate.

[goodhelmet]

Lots of average workers made it in the big leagues. However, if you look at post-RNR Gibson in SMW, he was still performing at a high level.

 

Come on Will he went all Memphis heel in that run. I liked it, but it was mostly all character work . It also probably wouldn't have worked if he wasn't part of the hottest baby face act in the Rock n Roll Express that was on top for 2 years in SMW.

 

I'll take character work any day of the week. Clearly he works better in a tag team. he was also pretty damn good in that tag team.

[soup23]

Punk-Rey at WM26 was sub-10:00 and quite good.

 

Also, I don't think it's fair to hold the Rock matches against Punk. Flair in his prime would have had trouble doing anything with 2013 Rock. I honestly don't see how those matches could have been any better.

Hence, why I said Rey Mysterio might work here in my post. I thought the WM 26 match was fine, but I wouldn't call it good.

 

Punk vs. Rock was extremely disappointing. I saw Flair have a better match in 1990 with Tom Zenk than Punk was able to in the second biggest show of the year with The Rock. Cena also had a better match the year before at Mania even though I don't think that is a great performance for him either.

 

Was 1990 Tom Zenk completely gassed two minutes into every one of his matches? And the Rock/Cena matches weren't good at all. Both the Punk matches blow them out of the water. Come on now.

 

I have yet to see one match from Zenk in 1990 where he didn't do one thing that wasn't incredibly stupid or had a performance I would call good. This whole argument is uncanny ability for you to deflect my original argument into something else. You said Flair in his prime couldn't have a good match with Rock in 2013, I threw up that 1990 Flair had a good match with a renowned shitty worker in Zenk. Now we want to compare Zenk to The Rock???

You know who else was a renowned shitty worker? The Rock during his comeback. Seriously, he was probably the worst wrestler in the world during that period. His cardio was worse than the Ultimate Warrior's, and he was so juiced that he was practically immobile. He made the Z-Man look like Ricky Steamboat.

 

I also never called the Rock/Cena matches goo and in fact never said anything at all about the WM 29 match. I do think the WM 28 match is the best match that Rock has had since his comeback and really don't see much argument to the fact that Punk/Rock blew both of them out of the water. If that is the case, what would you rank the Rock vs. Punk match. Blowing something out the water to me means it tangibly has to be significantly better, not a "one match is ** another is **1/2".

I'd say the Rumble match was close to **** with the NWO match a bit lower. The Cena matches topped out at ***. I have no interest in getting into a semantics debate, so if that doesn't meet your criteria for "blew out of the water," feel free to substitute whatever term you think is appropriate.

 

The Rock was so shitty that he had 3 out of his five matches on his return be *** or above based on your rankings? That is some feather in the cap of Punk and Cena then.

 

I also don't get how this logic works

 

The Rock 2012-2013 = shitty

Tom Zenk = shitty

Rock makes Zenk look like Steamboat

THEREFORE

Steamboat = shitty????

[Jimmy Redman]

The first Rock-Cena match was really good. I'd say that it blew the Rock-Punks out of the water, to use that term, rather than the other way around. The Rock-Punk matches were severely disappointing to me.

 

I feel like either Rock wasn't as completely blown up in 2012 as he was in 2013, or else they just managed to hide it/work around it a lot better the first time (outside of the bearhug maybe), because I don't think Rock's cardio or lack thereof completely ruined any chance for a good match in 2012 the way it did in all three matches he had in 2013.