Kane? Really?

[Strummer]

I must admit the idea of him standing there smiling while the heels make fun of him is growing old for me. That's why I really wish they'd blow of his program with the Authority sooner than later. It looks like the plan is for Steph to keep throwing heels at him till she is forced to sick Brock on him. That sounds good but I hope it's more physical and less making fun of on the mic

[Loss]

Coffey, you just described his entire character. Whether you like it or not, it works and it's over. The look is a large part of why he's over. Also, I guess a lot of people didn't see the really good promo on the pre-WM RAW post game show building up Mania.

 

What is Batista's character? What is Randy Orton's?

 

And if size matters to any wrestling fans in 2014, they are horrible people that are the reasons wrestlers die young, so fuck them.

[Coffey]

Coffey, you just described his entire character. Whether you like it or not, it works and it's over. The look is a large part of why he's over. Also, I guess a lot of people didn't see the really good promo on the pre-WM RAW building up Mania.

 

What is Batista's character? What is Randy Orton's?

 

Batista is supposed to be "The Animal." Admittedly, he hasn't done a lot since coming back but he was supposed to be "Hollywood" & acting above everyone else, like he did during his spotlight era before leaving. I guess "The Animal" was supposed to be a big, ruthless brute but it doesn't come across well when he's working 15 minute matches & getting blown up. Works better in squashes.

 

Randy Orton is "The Viper" and walks/wrestles/talks in slow motion like he's stalking his prey or some shit. It sucks but it's there. That's why the RKO "comes out of nowhere" because it's supposed to be like getting hit by a snake or some shit.

 

Good commentators would go a long way...

 

I like Bryan, I want WWE to do more. The pre-Mania stuff, like the Occupy RAW was good. They need more of that stuff. Not just him chanting Yes & JBL calling him a goat on commentary. Have him tell people he wants to be the best wrestler again, try to get that over. Say he's the best, gonna out-wrestle everyone. Something like that. Is he just going to be the underdog in every feud even as World Champion because he's small? Will the commentators continue to bury him even as World Champion because of his beard? They need to add more layers to his character & give him motivation. Now that he's the champion, chasing the belt isn't a motivation anymore, so he needs a new one. Don't make us assume his motivation is to just not lose the belt, tell us & show us, ya know?

 

Bryan as the voice of the people that get fucked by the system could work. All the people in student debt, etc.

[Loss]

He is a relatable everyman who is humble and doesn't quit regardless of the odds against him. I agree that some adjustments are necessary as champion but I am not ready to criticize WWE for it or make doomsday predictions until they get a fair shot to show us how they plan to present him as champion. Maybe he has lost some momentum. We'll know when he is on TV every week again.

[Matt D]

Sami Zayn is a better Bryan than Bryan in a lot of ways, at least character-wise.

[Exposer]

I still can't forgive Zayn for the one count. His character may be better though.

[Robert S]

I think Sting is way too old for even one match. People have wrestled at that age but usually they were elite workers when they were younger.

In what physical shape is Sting nowadays? The last time I saw Sting a couple of years back in TNA he was still moving quite okay. I don't remember him having many injuries when he was younger, he was never freakishly huge and he was not working for quite some time of the last 18 years, so I would expect him to be in better shape than other guys of his generation.

[Matt D]

You just don't want him to climb a cage in anger.

[Loss]

I'm not saying he's not in good shape. I'm just saying I think he's too old. He could probably do it physically, but I still think he's too old to be in the ring. When people talk about the interest that would be there, I just sadly don't believe them. Maybe he could do an annual Rumble spot like Kevin Nash, but I don't see it beyond that. I can be convinced but I'm skeptical that his name even means more than that of someone like Kevin Nash.

[Loss]

You just don't want him to climb a cage in anger.

 

Not particularly.

[Matt D]

I'm not saying he's not in good shape. I'm just saying I think he's too old. He could probably do it physically, but I still think he's too old to be in the ring. When people talk about the interest that would be there, I just sadly don't believe them. Maybe he could do an annual Rumble spot like Kevin Nash, but I don't see it beyond that. I can be convinced but I'm skeptical that his name even means more than that of someone like Kevin Nash.

 

I think there's going to be one moment to capitalize on that people will be interested in. I don't think that there will be two. They just milked Ultimate Warrior Nostalgia in a huge way. I think they can tap into that to get people into the network. Have him come back for one big match vs someone (in this case Bryan since he could make it work and is the champ), make it a network only special and tie it to Nitro and the Monday Night Wars show debuting on the network.

 

I honestly think they need to do big launches like that, big pushes now and again.

[(BP)]

All it takes to get Sting over with new fans is a really strong video package. I agree going beyond one match is probably asking a lot.

[The Chief]

I'm not saying he's not in good shape. I'm just saying I think he's too old. He could probably do it physically, but I still think he's too old to be in the ring. When people talk about the interest that would be there, I just sadly don't believe them. Maybe he could do an annual Rumble spot like Kevin Nash, but I don't see it beyond that. I can be convinced but I'm skeptical that his name even means more than that of someone like Kevin Nash.

 

In all fairness, is Sting at the same level as a guy like Booker T? Meaning it's cool when he shows up, but it's not going to be treated as a major deal? Booker had a WWE run where he was pretty over in the public eye for close to a decade. The last time Sting was higher than that level with the general public was what, 1998? His last two years in WCW he was just another guy on the roster. And spending a decade in TNA pretty much means he's spent the last decade in obscurity.

 

Would people be petitioning for a Booker T/Undertaker WrestleMania match at this stage? No, nobody would. And I am 100% confident that Booker would pull a better match out of Taker at this stage. I get it that once upon a time Sting was a big deal, but that ship sailed years ago. I fail to see how lapsed WCW fans would all of the sudden decide to watch WWE just for Sting.

[Matt D]

Look at what just happened with Warrior. (I also don't think it should be a Mania match vs Taker, granted. I think they should build to some special to go along with Nitro and Monday Night Wars coming on the network with one big match to capitalize on his name, which in some ways does mean more since most of the audience they're targeting haven't seen him in years and years).

[The Chief]

Started a Sting/Current WWE thread.

[Strummer]

for those who think Bryan's character sucks watch Total Divas. He's out of the realm awesome on that show. I know it would be tough for him to play that character on TV but it's there if needed

[goc]

If there were all these people willing to pay money to Sting, WCW would still be in business. He drew one big buyrate 17 years ago.

[Steenalized]

Better get Karl Malone on the phone

[S.L.L.]

And that's is we don't bring up his size, which people are in denial if they think that doesn't matter.

Explain.

[Coffey]

 

And that's is we don't bring up his size, which people are in denial if they think that doesn't matter.

Explain.

 

Even as WWE World Heavyweight Champion, due to his size, he'll constantly be booked as an "underdog" in every single match, just like Rey Mysterio, Jr. was. You can already tell because of how the commentators treat him & the things that people like Triple H, Stephanie McMahon & Vince McMahon say in promos. If you're treated that way, even as champion, it means you're never going on last (like C.M. Punk), so you're never a "true" main eventer. It just means that he'll always play second (or third) fiddle to someone else. Which means he'll never be THE guy & put into a place to draw money...which they'll use against him later as an excuse to not be on top. "He doesn't draw." They did it before, they'll do it again.

 

Time will tell but we've seen it all before. It writes itself.

 

And yeah, I'll say it 'cause it's what everyone assumed anyway: I like wrestlers that are big because people pay to see non-normal people. The Pontiac Silverdome wasn't sold out for Savage & Steamboat. Brock Lesnar is always going to look more credible than Daniel Bryan. And when Brock beats him at Summerslam, or whenever, it'll just re-enforce that. There's a reason Hogan got the role in Rocky 3, people have an idea of what a WRESTLER is. That's not a small, bearded, pale man...

 

Size matters. Your entire run, every feud can't be David Vs. Goliath. And to be blunt, I think people on the internet WAY overrate what "workrate" even means because at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. Let's not lose sight of the fact that it's still a business where you're getting people to pay to watch you, regardless of all the back-and-forth, page after page discussions between us nerds on an internet forum.

[Loss]

Perhaps he should go on steroids and become bad in the ring. Would that make you appreciate him more? Would that get him more over? I hate this strawman argument that people think workrate makes a star. No one in the history of this board has ever made that argument. No one thinks that. Saying that people think that is dishonest.

 

For the record, these are the things people can say in message board posts that annoy me or anger me and you've managed to hit most of them:

 

- People who say that those who discuss wrestling on the Internet are a monolith

- People who say that those who discuss wrestling on the Internet only care about "workrate"

- People who have this absurd notion not that it takes more than just being mechanically good, which is indisputably true, but rather that being good in the ring is a negative, not a positive

- People who only care about size of wrestlers and believe bigger is always better

- People who are informed regarding the ugly side of basing an entire business on unnatural size who don't care enough to see wrestling differently

[Coffey]

Well, that's kinda putting words in my mouth is you think I said anything close to some of those. Especially "bigger is always better!" I'm not going to say that Giant Gonzales is better than Rey Mysterio, Jr. I'm saying that Rey Mysterio, Jr. is a terrible heavyweight champion that would have to main event & sell a Pay-Per-View. I think there's a difference...

 

And it doesn't have anything to do with steroids. I'm not saying I want the Warlord running around squashing people either. I just want larger than life stars at the top. Not ordinary looking guys. Is that really so far-fetched? It's a big reason why I don't watch or support most Indies. It's not my cup of tea.

 

Here's the honesty of it all: I'm a big fucking dude. Real big. And if I think I can whip a guy's ass, I'm not going to pay to watch him fight. That's where I'm coming from. I was literally bigger than Daniel Bryan by the time I was in 6th grade. So it's unbelievable to me to watch him winning 3-way matches against Batista & Randy Orton. I can't suspend my disbelief there. A kick to the balls & a small package roll-up? OK. A submission finish in the middle? Eh...

 

And this is usually when people bring up something about MMA & technique and blah blah blah. That's great, except wrestling is worked & the small guys are never portrayed as high submission experts that can "catch" anyone at anytime or something like that. Maybe they should be, that could work. Mayweather hitting Big Show with Brass Knuckles? I bought that.

 

I met The Undertaker in person. He's one of the only people in my life I have ever had to look up to. He had a presence about him that was...unreal. I can't even really explain it. THAT is what I would pay for, ya know? Dude was straight scary & I thought he would rock me.

 

And I post on like, let's see...six different wrestling forums right now. So when I talk about the online wrestling fans, I'm not speaking of this forum exclusively. And when speaking in general terms when speaking of the IWC masses, yeah, the workrate people ARE like that.

[BillThompson]

Actually, the small guys are always portrayed as catching the bigger guys in either quick submissions or pinfall attempts. That's been the MO of the small guy for as long as I can remember, and especially in the last 20-30 years.

 

As for the rest, I think your view is narrow and limiting. Big, small, it doesn't matter one iota as long as a guy is booked to look like he can beat anyone on any given night.

[Loss]

Perhaps if everyone in wrestling looked ordinary I would be inclined to agree with you. But I think looking different is more important than looking big in getting over. There aren't a lot of top guys in WWE who look like Bryan, so I think when you have one guy who has that look, he stands out uniquely because of it. If the main event scene was filled with Daniel Bryans, it would stink and wouldn't work at all. And I do agree with the idea that a guy who is smaller has to be exceptionally good to hang at that level. Where we differ is that Bryan and Rey have proven that they can hang at that level. Rey's days on top are over, but he was successful, even while being booked as a chump. I wouldn't even say he and Bryan got over in spite of their size. They got over because of their size. They're different. They aren't the norm. That's what got them over.

 

I'm not saying credibility isn't important. It is. Guys who have it in physical appearance have natural advantages in getting over. Guys who don't have size going for them have to have it in other ways. I can see having trouble with Rey because most of his offense was based on flash and resourcefulness more than being tough. I don't agree with that take, but I can see it. But Bryan is more of an asskicker and has a KO finish which has beaten everyone. He has also been presented as an underdog in the way he's been booked, but he doesn't work his matches as an underdog. He usually dominates his matches and takes more offense than most babyfaces in the company. I think that's part of what has helped him get over.

 

In five years, if everyone at the top is Daniel Bryan's size, a huge guy will come along and get over for being different. I think it's more important to be unique than it is to be a certain size.

[Coffey]

Perhaps if everyone in wrestling looked ordinary I would be inclined to agree with you. But I think looking different is more important than looking big in getting over.

 

This, in and of itself, would be a great discussion. There was a time when everyone in WWE looked pretty much the same not too long ago: frat boys, super tan with tribal tattoos (Batista, Orton, Jindrak, O'Haire, etc) and the people that stood out where those that DIDN'T look like that.

 

That might be a part of the reason why Wyatt & Bryan are popular today, while the crowds turn on Orton, Batista & Cena. Well that plus they're fresh & haven't been on top for a decade.

 

Paul Heyman once said, when defending Terry Funk being in ECW, that if you put 99 blondes in room with one redhead, when people walk in, their eyes gravitate toward the redhead. That's how he felt about Legends in wrestling. Terry Funk was the one, old guy legend in ECW and that's why it worked. In WCW, it was nothing but old guys. Something along those lines, it was quite awhile ago.