How can wrestling appeal to educated people with money?

[Matt D]

It's funny. They hire TV writers but they don't seem to use any real narrative ploys.

 

For instance, I watch Revenge with my wife. In the last two episodes of the third season, which just happened, they paid off a few big story arcs, set up 2-3 new things for the next season, had a couple of character deaths to help build up either new/returned characters or to set up a grudge, and introduced both new mysteries and new character problems for the next season.

 

And this isn't exactly a brilliantly written show.

 

WWE almost never manages to do those sorts of thing in any meaningful way, and when they do, and we can find examples of such things, that's when we go nuts about the product.

 

The long term planning is pretty nil.

 

People are so afraid of watching new shows right now because fox is going to cancel them within a season or whatever. WWE is there. It's not going anywhere. It can be a fix and something to follow, but they rarely play up the strengths of the serialized storytelling.

[Johnny Sorrow]

 

 

I just think that wrestling is something that needs to grab you as a kid or teen. That's a big reason why Attitude era and NWO WCW were so big. A generation that got hooked as kids got to come back to a "grown up" version.

This doesn't address the question that Loss posed... how do they attract a better demo to increase ad revenue?

Stop being Pro Wrestling? It's odd because this "demo" isn't exactly exclusively watching NOVA, PBS , and "smart " TV. College educated wealthy people watch a ton of shitty stupid TV. I think that people with money do watch. Those ringside seats aren't cheap.

[goodhelmet]

Honestly, I don't think those ringside seats are being sold to regular market buyers. I think you have the scalpers and a ton of comps. I have been to several shows where entire lines of the first few rows are filled with random fans especially military personnel.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

They'd be well-served to start highlighting their more attractive and successful fans on television. Remember in '06 or so when USA used to run promos about the WWE Fan Nation? I remember one with Deal Or No Deal's Leyla Milani talking about why she was a WWE fan, with no mention of the fact that she was a contestant in the previous year's Diva Search, which might make her something of a ringer. But they should run bumper segments on Raw and Smackdown with "real stories from the WWE universe:" profiles of real WWE fans who just happen to be hot chicks, good-looking guys and celebrities. They exist, you just have to look a little harder for them. Most viewers will hate these segments but the real target audience is advertisers and sponsors. As hard as it might be to actually attract a more desirable-to-advertisers fanbase, I think it might be easier to increase the perception that these people are watching WWE. But WWE is going to have to lay it on real thick. Just have Michael Cole incessantly talk about how "only the hottest and most successful people watch WWE!" and "WWE is one of the most popular shows on TV with young women!" I'm being semi-facetious here but the point is that if you say total bullshit enough times people believe it. Hey, they say over and over again how popular they are with children and people believe that they have a massive audience of kids even though their average viewer is in their late 30s.

 

OK, all that might be a little silly. But for real, I agree with Loss's suggestion of making it clear that everyone knows it's fake. If I were in charge of trying to make wrestling appeal to more upscale viewers, I'd be in way over my head, but the number one priority would be looking over every aspect of the show and asking if a casual viewer would think "that is so stupid" when watching it. I think we've all had that experience of watching with non-fans and having them comment on how dumb the show is. And the number one complaint I hear from them is "they're not even hitting each other," which they think all us fans are oblivious to. So if they got that problem out of the way, it would go a long way toward that goal, but it wouldn't completely put an end to those "that is so stupid"s. To that end, I would echo tholzerman's suggestion to get rid of the bigotry (full disclosure: I actually enjoy wrestling's tone-deaf political incorrectness a lot of the time but I recognize that this is 2014 and a lot of the stuff they do is no longer socially acceptable.) If they could come out on the right side of social issues, that would get them a lot of positive press. Like if Darren Young, the character, came out as gay on WWE TV and was totally accepted for who he was and won a lot of matches, that could do a good job of improving perception of the product. Now, in that specific case, it might be risky because there's no telling how the audience would react and if they had a negative reaction to such a character it would just reinforce negative perceptions of the fanbase. And the reaction last weekend to Michael Sam shows that a lot of America still isn't too cool with homosexuality. But if all went right, and if their audience reacted the right way, it would be a very good thing. But it all starts with how WWE portrays it.

 

Aside from that, I think the things that could be done are things that as hardcore fans we would all hate: less violence, less fun gimmicks, more boring dudes with short hair in trunks. Make it more bland and sport-like. It would suck but it would provoke less "that is so stupid"s, and that's what could earn them respectability.

 

Sorry, it's late, I'm rambling and this is probably a really bad post but those are my thoughts at the moment.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Honestly, I don't think those ringside seats are being sold to regular market buyers. I think you have the scalpers and a ton of comps. I have been to several shows where entire lines of the first few rows are filled with random fans especially military personnel.

That's an interesting thing to look at. If scalpers grab em, then whoever pays scalper fees must REALLY want to be at ringside, so it's either people with money or people who are not paying the gas bill that month to get wrestling tix. But comps for people who don't really care and the like is something interesting. That explains how you hear a crowd going nuts but see a bunch of apathetic folks on camera.

[DMJ]

As hard as it might be to actually attract a more desirable-to-advertisers fanbase, I think it might be easier to increase the perception that these people are watching WWE. But WWE is going to have to lay it on real thick. Just have Michael Cole incessantly talk about how "only the hottest and most successful people watch WWE!" and "WWE is one of the most popular shows on TV with young women!" I'm being semi-facetious here but the point is that if you say total bullshit enough times people believe it. Hey, they say over and over again how popular they are with children and people believe that they have a massive audience of kids even though their average viewer is in their late 30s.

 

 

 

While I might fix the actual phrasing of the message, I think that this one idea that costs zero dollars, can be started as soon as Monday, and will, at least, go a little way towards getting them in the right direction (especially the part about the popularity of wrestling with women).

 

I also like the idea of maybe changing hiring practices a little bit in relation to diversity, most importantly on the Creative side. For example, if you look at the producers/creators/writers of some of the more popular "high-tier" shows, like Scandal or comedies like The Office, 30 Rock, and Parks and Rec or Orange Is The New Black, and you will find women of color, men of color, etc. Shonda Rimes (creator of Scandal) has created a show that stars an African-American woman, which, for years, meant the show would've really only been picked up by an "urban" network (see The CW, BET, etc.), but has crossed over huge with white audiences thanks to smart storytelling. Tina Fey, Amy Poehler, and Mindy Kaling's shows may not be/have been ratings juggernauts, but they attract the demo that we're talking about here.

 

So, in a nutshell, if you can attract college-educated writers and allow them to construct story lines that would appeal to college-educated audiences, you might make wrestling appeal to more educated people with money.

 

But, personally, I think that would actually shrink the audience and not grow it.

 

If we're talking about growing the audience, regardless of education or income level or gender or race demos, what they should do is take just 5-6 of the ideas presented throughout this thread and do them all. The WWE has done a decent job of being everything to everyone, but what they need to do is be BETTER at being everything to everyone. If you're doing comedy, make it funny. If you're going with an adult theme storyline, know where the "hokey line" is and don't step over it. Be consistent in rules and storytelling, including even the vaguest notion of win/loss records, so that guys don't win championships after 5 months of a losing record (see Jack Swagger). And, as Boondocks mentioned, use a "Fake it 'til you make it" mentality to promote the show the way you want it to be seen (even if that means blurring the truth about what it actually is).

[pantherwagner]

I am coming late to the thread and most of the good points and most of the bad points have already been made. However I think that it’s pretty telling that most of those are Vince McMahon trademarks and the product isn’t going to change until Vince McMahon dies and they get rid of his old guard of producers, writers and yes men (most of them with a chunky severance package and an NDA so they don’t reveal where Vince’s skeletons in the closet are).

 

Also any goodwill they gain will be gone if any current major headliner dies of a heart attack before 50. You can write-off Warrior as a poster child of the excesses of the 80s but not sure how could you handle a post mid 00's star dying young.

[cm funk]

They'd be well-served to start highlighting their more attractive and successful fans on television. Remember in '06 or so when USA used to run promos about the WWE Fan Nation? I remember one with Deal Or No Deal's Leyla Milani talking about why she was a WWE fan, with no mention of the fact that she was a contestant in the previous year's Diva Search, which might make her something of a ringer. But they should run bumper segments on Raw and Smackdown with "real stories from the WWE universe:" profiles of real WWE fans who just happen to be hot chicks, good-looking guys and celebrities. They exist, you just have to look a little harder for them. Most viewers will hate these segments but the real target audience is advertisers and sponsors. As hard as it might be to actually attract a more desirable-to-advertisers fanbase, I think it might be easier to increase the perception that these people are watching WWE. But WWE is going to have to lay it on real thick. Just have Michael Cole incessantly talk about how "only the hottest and most successful people watch WWE!" and "WWE is one of the most popular shows on TV with young women!" I'm being semi-facetious here but the point is that if you say total bullshit enough times people believe it. Hey, they say over and over again how popular they are with children and people believe that they have a massive audience of kids even though their average viewer is in their late 30s.

 

OK, all that might be a little silly. But for real, I agree with Loss's suggestion of making it clear that everyone knows it's fake. If I were in charge of trying to make wrestling appeal to more upscale viewers, I'd be in way over my head, but the number one priority would be looking over every aspect of the show and asking if a casual viewer would think "that is so stupid" when watching it. I think we've all had that experience of watching with non-fans and having them comment on how dumb the show is. And the number one complaint I hear from them is "they're not even hitting each other," which they think all us fans are oblivious to. So if they got that problem out of the way, it would go a long way toward that goal, but it wouldn't completely put an end to those "that is so stupid"s. To that end, I would echo tholzerman's suggestion to get rid of the bigotry (full disclosure: I actually enjoy wrestling's tone-deaf political incorrectness a lot of the time but I recognize that this is 2014 and a lot of the stuff they do is no longer socially acceptable.) If they could come out on the right side of social issues, that would get them a lot of positive press. Like if Darren Young, the character, came out as gay on WWE TV and was totally accepted for who he was and won a lot of matches, that could do a good job of improving perception of the product. Now, in that specific case, it might be risky because there's no telling how the audience would react and if they had a negative reaction to such a character it would just reinforce negative perceptions of the fanbase. And the reaction last weekend to Michael Sam shows that a lot of America still isn't too cool with homosexuality. But if all went right, and if their audience reacted the right way, it would be a very good thing. But it all starts with how WWE portrays it.

 

Aside from that, I think the things that could be done are things that as hardcore fans we would all hate: less violence, less fun gimmicks, more boring dudes with short hair in trunks. Make it more bland and sport-like. It would suck but it would provoke less "that is so stupid"s, and that's what could earn them respectability.

 

Sorry, it's late, I'm rambling and this is probably a really bad post but those are my thoughts at the moment.

 

I actually thought WWE handled Darren Young coming out pefectly. They didn't make a big production out of it, they didn't have some over the top deal where a homophobic heel wrestler made an angle out of it. After the TMZ thing and the story broke or whatever, on the next RAW Darren & Titus had a tag match, the fans who were aware gave a nice respect pop and heat for the match, Darren won clean, and him and Titus celebrated. It was a cool moment. It was all so low key that I was shocked and impressed by WWE being so reserved when they usually go way over the top and bash you over the head with things. There was so mention at all about it on WWE tv....but they gave the Prime Time Players a nice little push for a few weeks and the crowd was behind them. Now.......they haven't done shit with either of them or capitalized on the growing crowd support they had for a bit.....and started flipping them from face to heel to face team depending on whatever way the wind was blowing that week.....then did the pointless breakup which was followed up by both being total jobbers and barely on tv anymore...anyway.....that's just a general criticism of bad booking

[MFoy]

I'm one of those people whose answer was "it can't," and thus didn't post, but thinking about it more, I think the main thing that wrestling has to appeal to people with discriminating tastes is the way that it combines such a wide variety of talents and showmanship. A wrestling match combines incredible athleticism with thoughtful layouts and amazing timing.

 

If you look back at mainstream articles written about wrestling during the 80s and even the 90s, you'll see a much more negative attitude taken toward wrestling and the wrestlers themselves than you do today. You'd often see the authors of said articles refer to the wrestlers as lowlives or some similar term, and mock its fakery and scumminess. While you sometimes still see that sort of stuff from older commentators, wrestlers for the most part have a lot more respect from the mainstream than they ever did, as far as their talents are concerned. These people still think wrestling is stupid and aren't interested in watching it, but they recognize wrestlers as talented athletes.

 

The sorts of matches that really build on that notion are, to me, the fast-paced super innovative spotfest-type matches. As wrestling fans who have seen all kinds of wrestling for many years, we might watch a Dragon Gate match and see the lack of selling, or the overkill of big moves, but for an uninitiated viewer, it seems like the most incredible physical performance imaginable. A dragon gate trios match involves six incredible athletes working together to produce this often impeccably-timed run of incredible athletic feats, all with a level of stakes and emotional audience investment that you don't get from something like, I don't know, Cirque Du Soleil.

 

It's not just Dragon Gate either. The Young Bucks vs. ReDragon match from last night's ROH show would have impressed the shit out of almost anyone who hadn't seen wrestling before. Even WWE has had matches like this. A non-fan who sees this wouldn't nitpick the selling. They'd merely be in awe of the performance, which is multifaceted even in a spotfest.

[MFoy]

Another thing that makes these types of matches impressive is the fact that unlike other athletically impressive shows, wrestling matches aren't meticulously choreographed on the vast majority of occasions. Sure, they plan out spots and try them out, but they don't rehearse an individual match over and over and over again, except in very rare instances (Hogan vs. Warrior I). The fact that these sorts of intricate spots can be come up with and executed without that sort of choreography makes wrestling a unique art form.

[MFoy]

I should probably add that this sort of style is mostly a takeoff of Lucha Libre, which I have seen my share of and am familiar with, but of which I am not a big follower. I do think that the hybrid of the Japanese, Lucha and American styles that you see today best fits what I'm describing, but I'm sure that plenty of traditional Lucha matches would work in this argument as well.

[Dylan Waco]

1. Cut the misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, and general bigotry. It shows.

 

I actually think if they wanted to find a formula that might have a snowball's chance in hell of appealing to a more wealthy demographic they should do the exact opposite. Turn up the misogyny, run with racism, go batshit with homophobia, transphobia, et....but make it all part of a transparently fake "evil" that to be overcome by a complex, but interesting, "babyface." Of course the key here is that you can only do this with much better writing, you would likely alienate a lot of current fans, and it very well could backfire. But making wrestling a live action Breaking Bad, or something that hipsters could feel comfortable fetishizing to the same degree is the only way I could see a wealthier demographic pulled in.

 

Which is another way to say I think it's impossible.

[Matt D]

So make it The Boondocks?

[flyonthewall2983]

It's impossible because those kinds of things don't get over with crowds who are easily provoked into cheering or booing. Shows like Breaking Bad are best watched by yourself, or at the most a number of your friends and family.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't disagree with that - which is why I think this is a futile exercise. Especially in a company where the brand image is what it is

[dawho5]

Yeah, reading some of this and thinking about it I wonder if that would be anything they actually wanted to do. Appealing to a more broad demographic (i.e. lowest common denominator) is going to make you way more money on attendance, merchandise, pay-per-view, network, etc. than going for the smaller percentage with more money. It's very likely that's the erason the business model is what it is. Sure, it may cost them in advertising and TV dollars, but Vince is a smart guy. Despite being trapped in his own worldview, he wants to make money. And I imagine if he felt that the revenues would be higher marketing to fewer, wealthier people and getting the better TV/advertising revenue he would.

[Timbo Slice]

So make it The Boondocks?

 

God, I want this to happen. If WWE had an Uncle Ruckus character, I'd buy all the merchandise.

[JaymeFuture]

I think the biggest problem is that wrestling is especially polarising, far more than any sport or TV show. You get it for what it is and enjoy it, or it's silly fake shit and you want it off your TV. The majority of people may be happy to be outward in their fandom, and upper class highbrow people may be fans too, but they're always closet fans because they don't want the association with the humanoids, and they don't want to be the odd one out of the highbrow social circle. Even in normal life, a lot of people are kind of closet fans because they know the number of people who don't "get it" outnumber them, and even us as fans can be steadfast in our beliefs, and then you see Damian Sandow walking out as Magneto and our confidence in it as far as a defense goes straight to hell.

 

The intricacies of the product or ringwork, even knocking off the stupid comedy, is almost inconsequencial - for that to have any impact, non-fans have to give it the time of day, and they won't.

 

If WWE couldn't turn around advertising philosophies when Steve Austin was on the cover of fucking Rolling Stone, with a feature spot on MTV and doing monster ratings every week on Raw, appealing to that teenage generation of South-Park loving, "we're getting to be adults before we're adults" mentality in staggering numbers, it's not doing it no matter what they do. No matter how smart they try and make the show, no matter how sophisticated they make the characters, nothing will change it. Because it's all happening on the wrestling show.

 

I understand all of that wasn't trying to appeal to the "rich educated" types, but the point is, if cold hard numbers don't talk, and genuine pop-culture impact doesn't speak volumes, gearing the product in some way to feel more acceptable to that highbrow mentality won't work, it's ingrained in their heads for life.

 

WWE has done a hell of a lot of hard work to change perception from a company standpoint, and in the end it didn't really mean a thing in the real world.

 

Also, I know other than David Kapoor, one of the writers in WWE is half-black, if that counts.

[goodhelmet]

The lead writer of Smackdown! is also African-American.

[JaymeFuture]

Actually think we're talking about the same guy, Ryan Ward?

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

 

1. Cut the misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, and general bigotry. It shows.

 

I actually think if they wanted to find a formula that might have a snowball's chance in hell of appealing to a more wealthy demographic they should do the exact opposite. Turn up the misogyny, run with racism, go batshit with homophobia, transphobia, et....but make it all part of a transparently fake "evil" that to be overcome by a complex, but interesting, "babyface." Of course the key here is that you can only do this with much better writing, you would likely alienate a lot of current fans, and it very well could backfire. But making wrestling a live action Breaking Bad, or something that hipsters could feel comfortable fetishizing to the same degree is the only way I could see a wealthier demographic pulled in.

 

Which is another way to say I think it's impossible.

 

 

Yeah, making wrestling more politically correct would likely hurt its standing with more affluent folks than help it.

 

I don't know education/income levels of the folks around this board, but I think we're far from a bunch of homophobe racists who advocate misogyny. That said, most of us seem to grin a little bit and find some guilty charm in many of the racist/homophobic/misogyny promos and angles of years past. A lot of that sentiment is probably nostalgia, but still.....

[tholzerman]

 

1. Cut the misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, and general bigotry. It shows.

 

I actually think if they wanted to find a formula that might have a snowball's chance in hell of appealing to a more wealthy demographic they should do the exact opposite. Turn up the misogyny, run with racism, go batshit with homophobia, transphobia, et....but make it all part of a transparently fake "evil" that to be overcome by a complex, but interesting, "babyface." Of course the key here is that you can only do this with much better writing, you would likely alienate a lot of current fans, and it very well could backfire. But making wrestling a live action Breaking Bad, or something that hipsters could feel comfortable fetishizing to the same degree is the only way I could see a wealthier demographic pulled in.

 

Which is another way to say I think it's impossible.

 

Well, Zeb Colter is fine, but you and I both know that he's not the problem. When John Cena and The Rock are feuding over who can call hte other one a girl in the most demeaning way possible, or when the announcers flat out mock anyone who isn't a white, cis, straight male, there's the bigotry that is ugly and unneeded.

 

basically, if the heels were the only bigots on the show, I'm not sure the first point in my reply would really have applied.

[jdw]

Funkdoc, I'm not saying this to criticize WWE since we don't know who's on their writing team, but I will say I wouldn't be surprised if there's not a single woman, LGBT person or person of color on the writing team.

 

Steph was Creative for more than a decade. It didn't improve the portrayal of women at all.

 

I suspect we are all 100% certain that over time that have been various members of Creative who were LGBT, even if we're limiting it to the post-Pat era. You just can't have the level of turnover that they've had in the past 15 years without having someone gay in on that staff, even if they're deeply in the closet.

 

I don't think the lack of women or LGBT is a massive problem in growing the business: it's not really where they're growing, and unlikely to (other than gay people who just happen to be fans of wrestling because it's Wrestling).

 

The ethnic diversity... that's a bigger problem. That's an area where they really could have grown the business in the past decade or so, and have been mediocre. We can all point to Rey being a "star" for more than a decade, and Eddy's time on top. But... it's still been mediocre.

[jdw]

 

1. Cut the misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, and general bigotry. It shows.

 

I actually think if they wanted to find a formula that might have a snowball's chance in hell of appealing to a more wealthy demographic they should do the exact opposite. Turn up the misogyny, run with racism, go batshit with homophobia, transphobia, et....but make it all part of a transparently fake "evil" that to be overcome by a complex, but interesting, "babyface." Of course the key here is that you can only do this with much better writing, you would likely alienate a lot of current fans, and it very well could backfire. But making wrestling a live action Breaking Bad, or something that hipsters could feel comfortable fetishizing to the same degree is the only way I could see a wealthier demographic pulled in.

 

Which is another way to say I think it's impossible.

 

 

I'm binge-watching Breaking Bad right now. My general thought is...

 

WWE Creative couldn't pull off WWE Breaking Bad.

 

Worse:

 

You could take the most talented writers/creators in entertainment like say a Vince Gilligan and even they couldn't pull it off.

 

That's setting aside the issue that we don't really know yet if Vince really is just a one-trick pony who shot his wad with Breaking Bad similar to Chris Carter with X-Files (and in contrast to Carter, Gilligan was smart enough to cap Breaking Bad while there was something in the tank rather than running it into the ground like Carter did).

 

The WWE can barely pull off smaller, short term arcs. They also have to deal with things like Bryan going out, Punk quitting, investing significant resources on things that get over in mixed fashion (Batista, Brock), etc. It's... hard.

 

* * * * *

 

I'd also point out that the WWE is closer to a more sprawling type of TV like The Wire than it is to Breaking Bad.

 

One of the things that works for Breaking Bad is that it's largely a three character series of arc: Walter, Jesse, Skylar. If you want to push Walter, you can... but he's really more of a mid-carder who is lucky enough to be invested with some growth and development during the show. The rest are support, even those that are exceptional like Gus. They are all there for largely Walter, but at times Jesse and Skylar to play off and reflect the arcs of those three.

 

The WWE is a sprawling mass of storylines like The Wire. We might think that at anyone one point there are some wrestlers getting more storyline, as guys like Cena are always going to be getting their programs. But in contrast to Breaking Bad where you're never saw a new character truly get the level of development that Walt/Jesse/Skylar were invest with, in the WWE you're *always* going to have new people forced up to the top mix. Punk was a major, lead character for more than a year. Bryan has had a "season" where he's been a top character. Brock came back. Etc. This is much more like Marlo showing up in Season 3, and by the end of the season our lead character on that "brand" is dead (Stringer) and Marlo is it. Bunny comes in Season 4, gets a major push with a major arc to be told... and is done by the end of the year. All the Harbor cats of Season 2? Washed out by the end of the year.

 

That's really hard to pull off, especially when so much is out of the control of Creative due to injuries and who gets over or fails to get over.

 

That's setting aside the fact that WWE Storylines don't even rise to the level of Bad Soap Operas, let along Breaking Bad. :/

[jdw]

I feel like the only real shot they have is by completely embracing the geek culture aspects of the business that have been creeping up for the last 15 years or so. You can point to that part of the fanbase as having disposable income and not being dullards who think it's a real competitive sport. It's not the solution, but it's a start and I can't think of any alternatives.

 

I'm not sure how they pull it off. My thought would be to consider how much of what is successful (i.e. making shitloads of money) in Geek Culture is well thought out & planned, and how much is just stone cold luck that something got popular?

 

On some level, pro wrestling was geek culture in the 70s and 80s before people even thought to dub things geek culture. It's been successful for the most part.