Your personal most Overrated and Underrated

[Alucard]

I'd like to hear someone go to bat for Hardcore Holly as an underrated guy. I'm not going to sit here and say he could have been a top guy or anything but from The Big Shot onwards, he was always, at least, entertaining and by the time, WWECW rolled around, he had perfected the WWE TV style to the point where you knew you were going to get something fun from him. He was a great foil to Crash, had a fun little run opposite Lesnar (though the outcome was never in doubt, of course) and wasn't afraid to lay it in.

 

Absolutely, always thought Holly was awesome. Especially his last 7 years with the company. Great bully heel on SD against the 2002 up and comers like Orton and Maven. Really solid lower midcard teams in 2004-2005 with Billy Gunn and Charlie Haas. Would have excellent random series on B/C shows like against Orlando Jordan on Velocity or Holly/Haas vs MNM then a badass series of matches with JBL on SD during his title run where he was again looking like a semi-top guy for SD and some real fun brawls with Sylvan in their mini feud later on. Loved the Holly/Brock buildup and feud, great stuff and even if it was obvious he wasn't going to win, it felt like he could've stayed hovering around more the upper mid card around that time. His later 06-07 ECW series with RVD was awesome with the classic table back slicer extreme rules one sticking out. Loved that they were getting 15 minutes regularly against each other, one of my favorite things about ECW on Syfy. I remember Holly was the first guy to beat Punk on TV there and I thought they were going to continue building him up there only for him to get squashed by Lashley not long after. He always stayed pretty over too. Enjoyed his final run with Cody Rhodes as a cool veteran/rookie team and was gutted that he never got to come back with a new partner to challenge Cody & Ted. After he worked a TNA show last year, I hoped they'd bring him in but it never happened. Regardless, Hardcore Holly rules.

 

I don't know if I'd consider either guy underrated or overrated but the Diesel-Bam Bam Bigelow match from April of 95 on Raw is a really good match, definitely much much better than expected. Nash was as motivated as I've ever seen and energetic as heck, one of his best efforts of all time.

 

I've thought Nash can be pretty underrated at times. Even in his last few years, his bloody brawl with Foley in TNA was more than expected and that final Ladder match with HHH I thought was really good with the tremendous table bump from Nash.

[jpchicago23]

Two other guys I'll call pretty underrated are Jannetty and Stevie Richards. Jannetty is a victim of his own doing but he was so damn good when he was on and motivated. The stuff against Absent is great and he had a really good doink match. He also had that fun Series 95 match and a one off with Douglas in ECW. His WCW stuff was hit or miss but some of the b show stuff turned out good.

 

Richards was really good as the guy who instigated and got his ass kicked in ECW. When he came to the WWF and did the RTC stuff he was one of the only legitimate heels in the company. He never got the cool heel treatment and consistently got booed out of the building. His later stuff in the ECW revamp was very solid week to week as well.

[JaymeFuture]

Just to update, the podcast taking all these suggestions and discussing the Underrated is up now at:

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/f8gusp/SCGRadio7-TheUnderratedInProWrestling.mp3

[goc]

Two other guys I'll call pretty underrated are Jannetty and Stevie Richards. Jannetty is a victim of his own doing but he was so damn good when he was on and motivated. The stuff against Absent is great and he had a really good doink match. He also had that fun Series 95 match and a one off with Douglas in ECW. His WCW stuff was hit or miss but some of the b show stuff turned out good.

 

Richards was really good as the guy who instigated and got his ass kicked in ECW. When he came to the WWF and did the RTC stuff he was one of the only legitimate heels in the company. He never got the cool heel treatment and consistently got booed out of the building. His later stuff in the ECW revamp was very solid week to week as well.

It was kind of surprising how good Stevie was in his role with the RTC yet they never really tried to keep him in that role in a different setting.

[jpchicago23]

Yea he drew tons of heat and could've been at least close to the main event.

[Coffey]

Owen was anything but boring, he had so much natural instinct, everything he did looked so effortless without coming across as lazy. Care to elaborate?

 

I'm not no-selling this by the way, just taking me time before elaborating to formulate my thoughts & opinion into words. I'm trying to go back & re-watch some of his stuff, tag stuff with Koko, Bulldog & Jarrett in particular, to give him a fair shake as well.

 

The big disconnect for me initially is that I always just found him boring & a lot of his stuff not too memorable. Like during his Blackheart run, to me, he just came off as a worse version of Bret, which maybe isn't fair to him. So I'll get back to you.

[Mad Dog]

I wanted to throw David Crockett out there for the underrated category. I'm not talking about the screaming David Crockett that started poking his head out in 1986. I'm talking about the David Crockett in 1985. The guy who didn't scream, the guy that loved Ric Flair even when he was being a dick. I watched an episode of World Wide Wrestling where Dan Spivey put Paul Jones in a full nelson and Crockett was just taunting the injured Jones afterwards and it was pure awesome. Also the first time Tully Blanchard brought Baby Doll out he played it up perfectly as being totally awe struck by her. I admit he got annoying but there were times where he really added to things.

[BillThompson]

 

Owen was anything but boring, he had so much natural instinct, everything he did looked so effortless without coming across as lazy. Care to elaborate?

 

I'm not no-selling this by the way, just taking me time before elaborating to formulate my thoughts & opinion into words. I'm trying to go back & re-watch some of his stuff, tag stuff with Koko, Bulldog & Jarrett in particular, to give him a fair shake as well.

 

The big disconnect for me initially is that I always just found him boring & a lot of his stuff not too memorable. Like during his Blackheart run, to me, he just came off as a worse version of Bret, which maybe isn't fair to him. So I'll get back to you.

 

 

 

I just watched Owen versus Shamrock from Fully Loaded '98. It's too short and it's hurt by a cluster ending. But, Owen is fantastic and given more time and a better ending I have no doubt that would have been a great match. It highlights why I think Owen is an all time great. He could switch from a light hitting high flyer, to a whiny backstabbing babyface, to a hard hitting heel, to a legit grappler with ease.

[Bix]

That Dungeon Match is a lost classic. I can watch it over and over.

[BillThompson]

That level of stiffness in a WWF environment really is something to behold.

[dgrblue]

My overrated by a long-shot is post-comeback Shawn Michaels. I really don't like his big showcase Wrestlemania matches or the era of endless false finishes and near falls they helped to inculcate. People go on about Taker vs. HBK, I am not at all a fan of those matches and they represent everything I've come to dislike about WWE main event style. A poster here, El-P, has a great phrase:"the self-conscious epic" -- and nothing to me represents that idea more than Taker vs. HBK, or indeed Shawn Michael's face in general in the 21st century. "I love you", fuck off! I might be a voice of one in a sea of 1000s, but there is no way that the Taker matches are *****Underrated? On PWO it's hard to think of anyone who is underrated because this place is all about re-evaluating guys and giving them a fair shake.Sorry to anyone who has heard or read me saying this at least two dozen times before, but "out there" on the world-wide interwebs, it's got to be Ron Garvin. The guy is seen as a joke by many remembered for being the worst world champ and then being the guy we see in WWF feuding with Greg Valentine before jobbing out to everyone. Most kids growing up watching only WWF TV developed the opinion that Garvin was very lame, myself included. But his series of matches with Flair -- the studio match in 85, the title win and the Starrcade 87 match -- are as strong as anyone's, all ***** in my book, and I think there are more than just those three with Flair alone. Garvin was stiff, surprisingly agile, and could work counter-holds on the mat if need be. But it's the level of intensity and brutality in those Flair matches that are exceptional -- I think as stiff as anything you see in All Japan, with no exaggeration. I see the Starrcade match routinely given ratings like ** by Scott Keith and assorted followers, which is obviously just nonsense. Garvin remains probably the single most underrated worker of the 80s. I suspect one or two of the guys on the panel of Jaymes's podcast will think that Garvin sucks.

Amen. Shawn Michaels gets glowing reviews from alot of guys as a worker, but mostbsay he was such an asshole behind the scenes. Why was it above reproach to,punish him as wwf champ in 1996 for the curtain call? I recently found out that Vader was supposed to beat Michaels at summerslam 96, why did that not happen? Could have rekindked vader and his ba streak. Redone the Rhodes/vader feud from 94, but no, Vince was a pussy, and bowed politicking.

[JaymeFuture]

I don't think anybody denies Shawn was an asshole though, and it's a flaw no doubt. Not to justify anything, but top guys have always gotten away with stuff, and Vader was a letdown by the time Summerslam rolled around. Granted, it still would have been better than Sid. We go into Shawn a little on the Overrated show that'll be up this week, but I'm not so hot on using the "self-conscious epic" point against him personally.

[W2BTD]

I'll try to come up with some stuff few have mentioned.

 

Underrated: Satoshi Kojima to me is criminally underrated both historically and for what he's doing today.

 

The Fantastics. Sure, everybody thinks they're pretty good, but I'd put them well ahead of several teams from that era (see below).

 

'96 - '97 WWF right before the Attitude Era.

 

Kevin Von Erich. Easily the best of the family imo, all things considered.

 

Overrated: Midnight Express. Any version. I like Eaton/Lane best, and have nothing against the team really aside from the "best tag team ever" talk that you hear. They never blew me away at that level.

 

Attitude Era. This was the only time period that successfully drove me away from American wrestling entirely, to the point I had to go back years later and rewatch the stuff I missed after I hand waved it to catch back up. I loathe everything about it and think it was all severely overrated, from the cheesy TV to Austin's repetitive segments & brawls. You've seen one RAW from that time, you've seen 'em all. You've seen one main event from that period, you've seen 'em all.

 

Ladder matches.

 

Edge. Good promo guy. So, so average in the ring.

 

Jeff Hardy.

 

The Brisco's. Jerry & Jack. Watching paint dry.

 

Anything Flair ever did from the first WWF run onward. Flair died the second he showed up on WWF TV as a watered down parody of himself, and never recovered.

 

David Von Erich. This guy sucked. I have no clue why he was seen as the chosen one of the three primary brothers. Worst look, worst promos (imagine the magnitude of this statement, and yes, I think Kerry was better if only because the unintentional dumb jock routine actually got over by accident), least interesting inside the ring. There are some guys I don't personally enjoy, but I see the appeal (Lawler). I will never, ever get the fascination with David Von Erich. Ever.

[JerryvonKramer]

I can't tell if the stuff about MX is intended as a troll.

 

More interested though: how much Jack and Jerry have you seen and from when?

[Mad Dog]

I thought Jerry was a bore but Jack I've always enjoyed.

[funkdoc]

i'd say the horsemen getting turned into a de facto KKK was a bigger turning point for flair than heading to titanland

[Shining Wiz]

Overrated - Flair. Honestly. Try watching three Flair matches in a row. The repetitiveness gets annoying. Isolated, absolutely fantastic. Not isolated, a bit much. And I have always hated the Flair flop and setting himself up for the slam off the top rope.

 

AJ Styles - don't know what he's missing, but whatever it is, it's something I need to enjoy a match.

 

Underrated - Big E - easily top 5 in WWE for me right now, probably top 10ish overall if I cared to think that much about it.

 

Rotten Ron Starr - one of the absolute best heels EVER. At least, so says my childhood.

[JerryvonKramer]

Overrated - Flair. Honestly. Try watching three Flair matches in a row. The repetitiveness gets annoying. Isolated, absolutely fantastic. Not isolated, a bit much. And I have always hated the Flair flop and setting himself up for the slam off the top rope.

I don't think any criticism of Flair winds me up more than this. Watch three matches of ANY guy in the history of wrestling in a row and you'll find repeated spots. It's just the grammar of pro-wrestling.

 

I've watched Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk matches back-to-back and there's shit both of them do in EVERY match. I don't see guys ragging on Terry Funk because he always does that 360 bump over the top rope. Jumbo Tsurta will always go for the running knee. Arn Anderson will always go for the second rope move that never hits as will DiBiase. Watch enough Ivan Koloff matches and you can predict exactly when he's going to feed the opponent his spot to comeback.

 

Every wrestler ever has signature moves and signature bumps they do in every single match.

 

This criticism is a fucking nonsense, it really is. It's literally like saying, "I've watched three Ryu (from Street Fighter 2) matches in a row and do you know what, he did a ha-do-ken in every single one of them". Well no shit, that's what Ryu does.

 

But the reason this pisses me off is that Flair is the one guy who really doesn't give you the same match twice, not even against different opponents. Watch three of the Luger matches back-to-back. Watch three Garvin matches back-to-back. Watch three Savage matches back-to-back. Or the Steamboat matches. None of them are the same, structurally, or in Flair's performance. "Oh but he does a Flair flip in every single one of them" Oh fuck off.

 

Sorry, but this is one thing guaranteed to get a rise out of me. And I've dealt with it as a criticism again and again and again, pointing to specific matches, and specific runs of matches where it is clearly and definitively not true. Flair wrestles very different matches even within a short time frame. I've talked about how he has at least four different personalities, and how sometimes you'll see all four of them in one match. "Oh but he does a Flair flip and a Flair flop".

[thebrainfollower]

Parv I think the frustration I have with Flair is somewhat related to this, but not quite the same point. Yes his matches are usually different. But they're really one of about 5 matches that he walks his opponent through, move for move, without allowing them much contribution at all. He loves certain spots and darn it you will see them if they make no sense.

For instance every Undertaker match in 92 has a press slam spot. I've seen literally every televised UT match from the 90's and Flair is the only opponent he uses that with. Why do it then, it makes no sense? Well because Flair likes it and thinks it's a cool spot and we're doing it darn it. If an actor on stage ever came to me and said "you know there's certain things you need to do that I like, they don't really make sense but I like them so we're doing them he'd be told to f off in no uncertain words.

 

And Flair DOES give you the same match Parv, with totally different opponents. There's no story to most of Flair's stuff it's just Ric has stuff to do because insane alcoholic Flair is so hung over that all he can remember is a stock match. For PPV matches he tended to handle things differently.

 

I would say Flair has a couple of power man matches, aerial matches, tech matches, brawlers etc, maybe 2 of each. That's not a knock on Flair but the almost non-existent contribution of his opponents is. It's disrespectful and it's irrational. You learn by TRYING, DOING and SOMETIMES FAILING not just repeating like a robot whatever so called GOAT Flairs tells you to do.

[The Chief]

"well no shit, that's what Ryu does"

 

this is fucking great

[JerryvonKramer]

How can he give them same match if so much of those matches are pinballing for the opponent?

 

But anyway ... Flair leading limited workers by the nose is one of his skills, that he drags servicable matches out of such opponents and sticks them through a "formula" is not a knock on the guy, it's the definition of "broomstick worker", that is Flair wrestling himself. I'll grant you that on occasion Flair could underrate opponents and just give them that match. It's basically the match he always has with Sting. And I've said many times that Sting always feels like Flair's most cookie cutter opponent.

 

It's the match he'd has with Road Warriror Hawk. And probably the best version of it is the match with Luger in 88 or maybe one of the Kerry Von Erich matches.

 

I would say Flair has a couple of power man matches, aerial matches, tech matches, brawlers etc, maybe 2 of each.

I think some of this is perceptive and true. You can add to it also his "match vs. inferior opponent", which can be a dominant squash or be the "underestimated underdog" Sam Houston variant (of which the Ricky Morton matches are the apotheosis).

 

But what isn't true is that Flair works two brawls or tech matches the same. His matches vs. Jumbo and vs. Steamer aren't the same. His matches with Ron Garvin and Terry Funk aren't the same. It's just simply not true to say that.

 

I think what it might be true to say is that Flair has opponents who he leads by the nose, and other opponents who he respects enough to let them carry their end of the match. I think it's probably fair to assume that Flair thought Taker in 92 was along the lines of a Road Warrior Hawk.

[Badlittlekitten]

If somebody is annoyed by the flop to the point of hating it I don't think they'll ever get past it. For me it's the greatest bump in wrestling history. I could watch it a thousand times and I'd still chuckle. In fact, I have.

[thebrainfollower]

Because Flair is calling the spots Parv. "now give me a backdrop. Good now a press slam. Now another backdrop". He's calling the shots he takes.

 

I just don't think Flair respects anyone really unless it's in his political interests to do so.

 

It's not a knock on the guy? It is if the guy can produce better work with other people. Cause I think Taker-Warrior was better in 91 then Flair-Taker in 92. It was something genuinely different whereas Flair-Taker is no different, as you say, from Flair-Hawk and anyone trying to say Hawk and Taker are about the same character is out of their minds.

 

Obviously Flair is a much better worker than Warrior but I'd argue his inability to let others help construct the story is proof of Flair's rampant ego and a self justifying argument "See this guy ain't good enough, I had to to carry him". Yeah but how do you know that if you never give the guy a chance and insist on it being done your way?

 

The ultimate example of that being his abomination with Scott Steiner. I blame that mostly on Flair. Scotty should have had enough balls to say F this and start throwing bombs and if need be rough Flair up enough to force him to stop burying Scott. To his credit as a human being, he didn't do that. For his career he should have. And I don't think Steiner's a nice guy, he's a sicko bully but the one time it would have been understandable he caved out of inexperience and fear.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well hold on, the Luger matches after 88 aren't that match, so clearly he gave Luger that space even though we know Flair thought Luger was shit and didn't respect him at all.

The Scott Steiner match -- the one match where Flair abandons the very formula vs. big men that we're talking about -- and everyone rags on it that Flair didn't give Scott enough.

So what is it? If he's pinballing and calling it in the ring he's being "disrespectful" (to guys by that point who really had no right to clean his boots let alone work with him), if he changes up and works a more dominant style he's "burying" the opponent.

Well?

[fxnj]

Flair/Undertaker 1992? You mean this match?

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdmaew_undertaker-vs-ric-flair-wwf-title_sport

 

I guess you could call it a by-the-numbers type match but I definitely see him changing things up to fit in with Undertaker's no-selling schtick back then like the cool figure-four spot. Not sure why the match would be brought up as a point against Flair. If anything it helps out his case by showing how he could make thing entertaining while also doing nothing to detract from the aura of a guy whose gimmick at the time seemingly ran completely against having good matches.