Your personal most Overrated and Underrated

[dawho5]

When I watch Malenko's matwork, I see a huge difference from when I was younger.

 

Back then, I loved Dean for how superbly smooth everything he did on the mat was. It just flowed.

 

Now, I see that and I wonder where the sense of struggle is. Flair had a great smoothness, but when he did things it was never in a way that took away from the idea that there was an athletic contest going on in the ring. Malenko's smoothness on the mat is almost a detriment to a lot of things because it removes any idea that there is a struggle going on in the ring most of the time.

[khawk20]

 

When I watch Malenko's matwork, I see a huge difference from when I was younger.

 

Back then, I loved Dean for how superbly smooth everything he did on the mat was. It just flowed.

 

Now, I see that and I wonder where the sense of struggle is. Flair had a great smoothness, but when he did things it was never in a way that took away from the idea that there was an athletic contest going on in the ring. Malenko's smoothness on the mat is almost a detriment to a lot of things because it removes any idea that there is a struggle going on in the ring most of the time.

 

Pretty much sums up my Malenko experience in a nutshell.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think it would be interesting for people to compare Malenko to Dory Funk Jr, who is fast becoming my pick for "underrated" (see my ongoing chronicles in Microscope).

 

Dory was also smooth as hell at matwork and chain wrestling, but not only gives you struggle, but also does very smart little things like leaning in on a headlock with his whole body. Given that both guys are seen as lacking charisma, I think it'd be an apt comparison point.

 

While I'm on the topic, Dory is vastly underrated as a worker of brawls. People maybe think of the match he had in ECW, where I've seen people on this board say he looked clueless and like he didn't know what he was doing, but I reckon he was probably just OLD. His performances in the Sheik/Abby series are great, and the stuff of his I've found working as a dick heel in Florida circa 81 demonstrates him showing that darker side in another context. I'm not calling for a wholescale reassessment of Dory, just to point out that I think he is the victim of more stereotyping (partly because of his look) than most guys on PWO, and that he has more than his fair share of great performances in his locker. I've probably been as guilty of that stereotyping as anyone in the past.

 

To tie it back to Malenko, I'd be interested to see if he has any brawls on the level of Dory's.

 

A Dory vs. Malenko comparison is much more apt and interesting than a Flair vs. Malenko one I think. You've got the sacred cow of 70s technical style vs. the sacred cow of the 90s IWC. Both of them have suffered a decline in rep on PWO, both of them worked a kind of "ice man" persona. Dory was obviously a much bigger star than Dean, but I think the point still stands.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't know that Malenko was the sacred cow of the 90s IWC. That was Benoit. People were more into Jericho than Malenko.

[JerryvonKramer]

Actually you're right, Malenko was more a guy people would point to as being underrated in order to prove their smart credentials. Either way he was an internet darling for years.

[khawk20]

Malenko's speed would be the intial separator that the average fan would probably point to. Dean had to be quicker given the guys he was working with when he was getting all his attention, because his opponents worked pretty fast. I don't think you can say the same about Dory at any given point, but that's more a product of the era where each wrestled in their prime.

 

At an even more base level, Dory looking over 50 for his entire career has to work against him right from the get-go, at least in comparison to others with a similar style.

[funkdoc]

i feel like a lot of the criticisms of dean could also apply to the early-career owen hart who meltzer & co. raved about so much, except with more high-flying stuff

 

matches like owen vs. liger have that same "soulless exhibition" & "no struggle" feel that people always mention with dean

[The Chief]

Dean's appeal is in the execution. His peers will always put that over and it's probably a big reason why he's an agent.

 

He's like a better Christopher Daniels.

[Mad Dog]

I think Dean got wrongfully bundled into that group of talent people thought were being misused in WCW. If you look at his WCW career, they pushed him more and to higher levels than I think I would if I were booking him. I never would have thought to put the U.S. belt on him.

[jpchicago23]

I always preferred Malenkos tv matches to his ppv ones. For some reason he looked a lot better in a six to eight minute sprint than a 15-20 min showcase. I guess lack or crowd connection and charisma gets more exposed in a longer ppv setting

[Loss]

I always thought Malenko was decently over in WCW. Definitely more than someone like Finlay anyway. He definitely wasn't as over as Benoit and Eddy in WCW.

[Loss]

Speaking of, I think Finlay is overrated. He works really stiff and his shit looks good, but I don't think his match layouts are really good most of the time, plus I think he has a tendency to eat up his opponents too much. I enjoy watching him because of his execution, but I think his matches sometimes lack psychology.

[jdw]

Actually you're right, Malenko was more a guy people would point to as being underrated in order to prove their smart credentials. Either way he was an internet darling for years.

 

Which is funny, since Cooke already pointed out that I've been bagging on Dean since 1996... which happens to be when I get online.

 

One of these years I'm going to need to put together a list of the things I get blamed for (Taue "sucking", "overrating" Backlund and The Destroyer, "Sell The Arm!!!", My Turn/Your Turn, Flair Criticism...) and the things that I don't get credit for ("Dean is a stupid worker", "Toyota is overrated", "That Hogan guy was pretty damn effective worker", "Good lord is the work in All Japan is starting to piss me off"...). I think Sammy vs Ohtani might be one of the few things right in the middle between those two extremes.

[JerryvonKramer]

You were definitely ahead of the curve.

[Jesse Ewiak]

I always thought Malenko was decently over in WCW. Definitely more than someone like Finlay anyway. He definitely wasn't as over as Benoit and Eddy in WCW.

3/4 of the current WWE roster would kill to get the pop Dean got for unmasking as Ciclope after that battle royal at Superbrawl (I think). Of course, that might be more a credit to Jericho's heel work than anything else.

[jdw]

When those discussions were going on, I was hardly the only one who thought Dean wrestled to his own tune and zoned out the crowd.

[jdw]

 

I always thought Malenko was decently over in WCW. Definitely more than someone like Finlay anyway. He definitely wasn't as over as Benoit and Eddy in WCW.

3/4 of the current WWE roster would kill to get the pop Dean got for unmasking as Ciclope after that battle royal at Superbrawl (I think). Of course, that might be more a credit to Jericho's heel work than anything else.

 

 

Dean was over in stretches. He also wasn't always awful or sucky. He did have his moments. That's one of the things that was frustrating about him is that there was a base to build on, and frankly a really good persona as a contrast to everyone else in the division. But he feels akin to one of those NBA players where you'd like to point out to him what he does well, what's solid, what works strongly for him, and the stuff that is bad for both him and his opponent... and knock off the crappy stuff, focus on the good and solid stuff.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

When those discussions were going on, I was hardly the only one who thought Dean wrestled to his own tune and zoned out the crowd.

So?

[ohtani's jacket]

Speaking of, I think Finlay is overrated. He works really stiff and his shit looks good, but I don't think his match layouts are really good most of the time, plus I think he has a tendency to eat up his opponents too much. I enjoy watching him because of his execution, but I think his matches sometimes lack psychology.

 

Early Finlay is awesome, like a superior version of hoodlum Dynamite Kid. Then he adopts the "Fit Finlay" persona and gets a lot crowd heat, but his ring work stagnates for a good decade or so. If you've been watching a lot of 90s Finlay then I think most of that stuff is ultimately disappointing. His WWE run was great, but the 90s European and Japan work lacks psychology. The WCW stuff I'm not sure he can be blamed for as there wasn't the same opportunities to have fantastic television matches as there were in the 80s and first half of the 90s.

[jdw]

 

When those discussions were going on, I was hardly the only one who thought Dean wrestled to his own tune and zoned out the crowd.

So?

 

 

The interwebs didn't love Dean as much as you think it did. They loved Benoit and Eddy more. Dean was the third wheel.

[JerryvonKramer]

Thanks for letting me know.

[Moonsault Marvin]

I remember hearing a radio interview with Malenko, Guerrero, and Saturn shortly after they jumped to WWF, and I was shocked that Malenko was quite funny and personable. I'm not sure why he couldn't translate his personality to wrestling.

[artDDP]

I remember hearing a radio interview with Malenko, Guerrero, and Saturn shortly after they jumped to WWF, and I was shocked that Malenko was quite funny and personable. I'm not sure why he couldn't translate his personality to wrestling.

In his first book Jericho paints a wildly different picture of Malenko than I was expecting.

 

I don't remember Malenko getting much love online in 1996-97. I think he was over with a certain segment of the crowd because he was different than the rest of the roster (to an extent) and his angles were always based around wrestling until the Jericho stuff.

 

WCW made a Malenko T-shirt, too. It was pretty ugly, as I recall.

[fxnj]

Malenko's "lacking charisma" was clearly a deliberate part of the shooter/iceman gimmick. I don't see why people don't want to give him credit for trying something different by working a serious and conservative character at a time when major US promotions were doing all kinds of wacky shit, or why people seem so focused on that side while considering Misawa an all-time great for working a similar stoic gimmick.

[Shining Wiz]

Malenko's "lacking charisma" was clearly a deliberate part of the shooter/iceman gimmick. I don't see why people don't want to give him credit for trying something different by working a serious and conservative character at a time when major US promotions were doing all kinds of wacky shit, or why people seem so focused on that side while considering Misawa an all-time great for working a similar stoic gimmick.

 

I don't think the lack of charisma was part of the gimmick, rather the lack of charisma led to that gimmick. His promo for the NWA tournament on ECW tv should show that.