WrestlingPower Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Finally caught up on this thread and one thing reading the Meltzer C&P caught my eye. He mentioned something about Samoa Joe & if he would even make the ballot. I'm sure this is mostly my interpretation rather than anything ever explicitly stated, but I thought one of the reasons of trying to prune that ballot was to give the ballot more fluidity. To me rather than Dave discussing with 2-3 close friends whether someone is ballot-worthy or not could be equally as complex as discussing those on the ballot. To me anyone who was a reasonable level star should go on & let the electorate decide. Just like with AJ last year, if voters don't see where Joe has any merit, he will get less than 10% and fall off. I'm not sure what is gained by picking & choosing who even goes on the ballot in a case like this. Unless the thought is having too many choices spreads out the vote too much. I'd rather people have more choices than to look back in hindsight and say "if X had been on the ballot I would have voted him instead of Y & Z". Also are we to assume that the historical category will eventually go away? It seems like that's largely a category for people who were overlooked over the years and are put there because their primes were so long ago. If he's going to be adding any reasonable level star during their actual careers, and possibly adding them as early as 35, people are going to run thru their 15 years of eligibility before even moving to historical. It still seems odd to me that there are Mexican & Japan historical candidates in with modern candidates and that non-wrestler votes can cause a voter to unintentionally vote in the historical category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 From today's update on WON: Also, our most talked about issue of the year, the 2014 Hall of Fame double issue of the Observer will be out in less than two weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Listening to the LAW last night leads me to strongly believe Dick Murdoch didn't make it in. Every year Dan Lovranski at the end of Meltzer's news segment surprises Dave with the Murdoch question ahead of the HOF issue. Dave immediately reacted in the negative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I'm counting being on top in 02-03 when business really dropped off. I gotcha but it's hard to blame Brock for that run cause WWE hotshoted him so quickly to the top. I know it kind of turned me off personally because I was unfamiliar with him and it probably turned off a lot of casual fans also along with Austin and Rock leaving the company. So along with his run in 02-03, you have the following: His run in NJPW from 05-06 His UFC run from 06-2011 (with gaps of his illness) And his run on top WWE 2012 until now as a part timer. That is 3 runs as a wrestler and 4 runs all together at the top of the card. The less said about Brock's NJPW run the better. I think it's a moment in time everyone would like to forget. He only had 3-4 matches in NJPW anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jushin muta liger Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I'm counting being on top in 02-03 when business really dropped off.I gotcha but it's hard to blame Brock for that run cause WWE hotshoted him so quickly to the top. I know it kind of turned me off personally because I was unfamiliar with him and it probably turned off a lot of casual fans also along with Austin and Rock leaving the company. So along with his run in 02-03, you have the following: His run in NJPW from 05-06 His UFC run from 06-2011 (with gaps of his illness) And his run on top WWE 2012 until now as a part timer. That is 3 runs as a wrestler and 4 runs all together at the top of the card. The less said about Brock's NJPW run the better. I think it's a moment in time everyone would like to forget. He only had 3-4 matches in NJPW anyway. No, I think we need to talk about it more because he became IWGP Champion first night in the promotion at the Tokyo Dome. Antonio and Simon Inoki brought him with a lot of hype and Brock didn't deliver. People that were following New Japan close at that time will tell you that Brock was a disappointment. The two dome show cards he was on was papered and Zack Arnold said that New Japan got to a point where they were selling tickets at 5 for 1 rates during that Simon Inoki time period for Dome shows. Brock couldn't even draw at Sumo Hall with Akebono, who was still a big name in Japan at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 Not to defend Brock, but I think him working in Japan had more to do with his non-compete lawsuit with WWE than it did with him actually wanting to work in Japan. I blame New Japan for giving him that big push without seeing how dedicated he was really going to be. If he hadn't needed to wrestle somewhere else to flaunt WWE's non-compete clause I'm not sure he ever goes to Japan in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 Can he be blamed for the failure of the network at this point? It feels hard to blame him but hey, Sting gets flack for not being a draw during the doldrums of 91, and very few heels in WWE history have gotten pushed like Brock has this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 Can he be blamed for the failure of the network at this point? It feels hard to blame him but hey, Sting gets flack for not being a draw during the doldrums of 91, and very few heels in WWE history have gotten pushed like Brock has this year. Brock definitely is responsible for whatever numbers he pulls no doubt. I have no idea what's going on booking wise though. I'd feel uncomfortable blaming him for the network though. There's too many tangibles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 That's REALLY stretching to blame him for The Network, I mean there about a 100 more valid reasons for The Network's numbers than "Brock isn't on every PPV" It's not like all his numbers are bad since apparently he has very good merchandise numbers for a heel. I don't think that his part time deal is an impediment to having an interesting character it's just that WWE has booked him terribly, but that's the case for 99% of the guys on weekly TV also. But that's a dead horse to beat in some other thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingPower Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 Today's the day, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 That's REALLY stretching to blame him for The Network, I mean there about a 100 more valid reasons for The Network's numbers than "Brock isn't on every PPV" It's not like all his numbers are bad since apparently he has very good merchandise numbers for a heel. I don't think that his part time deal is an impediment to having an interesting character it's just that WWE has booked him terribly, but that's the case for 99% of the guys on weekly TV also. But that's a dead horse to beat in some other thread. I just like my role as the board's Sting apologist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted November 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 Today's the day, right? This is the day your life will surely change. This is the day when things fall into place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted November 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 Issue's not out yet, but it was announced with a Ricky Morton interview on WOR that the Rock & Roll Express is in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 Fantastic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 All they needed was my vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 So the R&Rs are the only ones who made it in (EDIT: scratch that, Ray Fabiani also made it in). I continue to be baffled by Ivan Koloff's failure to get inducted. What possible argument is there against him? Also, it should be noted that Brock did great among reporters and historians but poorly among active and former wrestlers. That should put the final nail in the coffin of the "wrestlers are insecure legitimacy marks" argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Balloting this year was the deepest in history, making it one of the toughest ballots ever. There were no slam dunks who became eligible, and nobody else came close to making it. Brock Lesnar, the current WWE champion, came 13 ballots shy and finished in second place. Carlos Colon, who has been close for years, was six votes shy in his region, and Cien Caras was also six votes shy. A new rule was instituted this year which is a 15-year rule. After being on the ballot for 15 years, a performer needs to at least get 50 percent of the vote or they are off the ballot. Because of that new rule, somewhat patterned after the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame, dropped next year from the ballot are Gene & Ole Anderson, Gran Hamada, Owen Hart, Gorilla Monsoon, Fabulous Moolah, Pedro Morales, Dick Murdoch, Seiji Sakaguchi, Jimmy Snuka, Wilbur Snyder and Jesse Ventura. In the case of Snyder and Gene Anderson, they are probably not going to be back on the ballot, unless a reason surfaces that would make it appear they would have a shot at getting in. In the case of Morales, because of the data in the research this year, which came out after most ballots had come in, he’ll probably be put back on in two years for a last shot. The fact is that even though his numbers of big show successful main events and his Madison Square Garden record in particular are Hall of Fame level, and he held both the WWA and WWWF world titles, most of that was known, and he had never fared well in the balloting. But my thought it was everyone who had Hall of Fame numbers of a headliner in this year’s research would get another ballot run. What has always hurt Morales was his post-1973 career was not that impressive, past his WWF return as the perennial babyface IC champion. Ole Anderson (in 2020), Hamada (in 2032), Owen Hart (in 2029), Monsoon (in 2026 because Monsoon is on the ballot as a non-wrestler), Moolah (in 2017), Murdoch (in 2024), Sakaguchi (in 2020), Snuka (in 2022) and Ventura (in 2024 because he’s on the ballot as an announcer, not a wrestler) will eventually return for one last chance in the historical candidates category. Their returns to the ballot will be 30 years after their last year as a significant star and major player. Anderson was already in that category as part of the Minnesota Wrecking Crew tag team, but in studying his career, really Ole Anderson individually is a stronger candidate than the Anderson Brothers team, as he was a successful singles star, and also formed championship tag teams with Ivan Koloff, Stan Hansen and Arn Anderson. But while the end of the original Minnesota Wrecking Crew was in 1982, meaning they were eligible for the historical candidates a few years ago, Ole Anderson’s final major run, as part of the Four Horseman and with Arn Anderson, ended in 1990, meaning he would be eligible reappear on the ballot as a single in 2020. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 2024 for Murdoch......well we have 10 years to do research!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakla Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Glad he hasn't banished Morales yet. He had a long gap being off the ballot, like 5 or so years, so he wasn't on 15 ballots. Plus he just entered the historical category this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 2024 for Murdoch......well we have 10 years to do research!!!!!!! Plus 10 years for Parv to drive Will mad!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvenStevenBooking Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Also, it should be noted that Brock did great among reporters and historians but poorly among active and former wrestlers. That should put the final nail in the coffin of the "wrestlers are insecure legitimacy marks" argument. Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jushin muta liger Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 So basically with the 15 year rule, everybody with a HOF ballot cancelled each other out in voting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 2024 for Murdoch......well we have 10 years to do research!!!!!!! Plus 10 years for Parv to drive Will mad!!!! Parv doesn't concern me. He has no banning powers. I do. People will be mad I banned him for like a day and then we will move on like he was never here. As for Murdoch getting the boot, it is telling that the categories I respect the least (reporters and active wrestlers) are where he faltered while he was Top Ten in historians and Number 1 in past wrestlers. That isn't an indictment on Murdoch but the process and those allowed to vote. I love that the RNR got in and i am sad that lucha is so lacking in representation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 So from the breakdown posted in the issue it looks like Carlos Colon didn't get in because no one in the former wrestler category voted for him. Kind of odd there's sort of an unofficial blackball going on yet Benoit skated on his recall vote. Say what you will about the Brody deal but it's not like Carlos was the one who killed the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Honestly, old-timers' hostility toward Colon is probably due more to him being a lousy payoff guy than to Brody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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