2014 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame thread

[El Boricua]

This may have been mentioned already in the thread (apologies for asking if so), but when are the results going to be announced?

[Bix]

This may have been mentioned already in the thread (apologies for asking if so), but when are the results going to be announced?

Probably the first Observer of November.

[shakla]

Finished reading Dave's HoF piece in the latest WON. After his modern era drawing listing, when he talks about those not in the HoF, he says Big Show was a "one and done", but he's never been on the ballot. Probably should be at some point, despite how a lot of the modern WWE guys have fared. Also called Batista a "one and done", but he was on at least a few years. I don't think it's fair to call Nash/Luger or anyone else on the late 90s ballot "one and done"s since the voting pool and systems have evolved considerably. How many voters in the late 90s still vote now? And volume-wise, how does it compare to now? And with someone like Luger, who is retired now, compared to being active in '98, you look at such candidates differently.

[Dylan Waco]

In no way am I advocating for him, but it's interesting that Rick Martel popped up a few times in Dave's HOF research/piece

[ohtani's jacket]

Would you say Chicana is the best candidate from the late 70s-early 80s Mexico not already in or on the ballot (this was Villano III's peak as well right?), or would it be someone like Fishman or someone else even?

 

In the Lucha History lessons you said "It was either a talent sharing arrangement between EMLL and the UWA or Chicana was working as an independent, but in any event he was everywhere in the early 80s." What other major stars bounced back and forth or seemingly worked as an independent like this?

 

I've never really gotten to the bottom of why EMLL talent could work at El Toreo. Jose told me the reason wrestlers moved freely between the UWA and EMLL was because Flores didn't have contracts with anyone, but there are times when it seemed like the promotions were co-operating. Fishman seems like another potential candidate.

[jushin muta liger]

 

 

The more I think about Brock, the more of a joke I think he is as a candidate. What bothers me most about him is that he comes across as a guy that people see as a great candidate because they have an idea of what he is and/or should be and they are voting on that idea and not the facts.

i just came up with this in the meltzer thread, but i think brock in a wrestling HOF would be pretty much like bo jackson getting into the pro football HOF

Or getting into Cooperstown.

 

Brock should not be in the HOF cause of his wrestling career not being long enough to me. Also, I know this has been brought up before but his New Japan run was a disappointment. That was the time when Simon Inoki was President and Yukes had a stake in New Japan. I'm pretty sure the Dome shows Brock headlined were papered and him not showing up against Tanahashi for the IWGP title only to show up at the Inoki show to drop the belt to Angle really could have messed up New Japan financially for a long time.

[Matt D]

So he has at least two bad runs as a draw? Out of what? Three? Four?

[jushin muta liger]

So he has at least two bad runs as a draw? Out of what? Three? Four?

Are you counting this current run as a bad draw?

 

Plus Dave letting people interpret his MMA career be part of his wrestling career doesn't help.

 

Todd Martin wrote a series of articles on Sherdog for a potential MMA HOF this year and had Brock in that HOF (which I agree with). Brock is a near slam dunk pick for MMA despite his fighting record cause of his drawing record and becoming UFC Champ. But as a wrestler, it's questionable.

[Matt D]

I'm counting being on top in 02-03 when business really dropped off.

[jushin muta liger]

I'm counting being on top in 02-03 when business really dropped off.

I gotcha but it's hard to blame Brock for that run cause WWE hotshoted him so quickly to the top. I know it kind of turned me off personally because I was unfamiliar with him and it probably turned off a lot of casual fans also along with Austin and Rock leaving the company.

 

So along with his run in 02-03, you have the following:

 

His run in NJPW from 05-06

 

His UFC run from 06-2011 (with gaps of his illness)

 

And his run on top WWE 2012 until now as a part timer.

 

That is 3 runs as a wrestler and 4 runs all together at the top of the card.

[kjh]

I think an argument can be made that his current run as a draw has been disappointing too so far. He drew well with John Cena and Triple H on his first couple of pay-per-view shows, but since then he hasn't really justified his hefty price tag (as he isn't a huge merchandise seller or ratings draw to make up for cooling off as a PPV draw).

[goc]

I preface this with just about every Brock post I make so I'm not sure who doesn't know this by now, but I am a huge Brock Lesnar mark. That said, I never thought they could get a return on their money once I heard what they were paying him. The people who paid to see him fight in the UFC weren't going to pay to see him wrestle in WWE. The crossover only worked one way, you couldn't reverse it.

 

He wasn't a huge draw when they gave him the best push they've ever given anyone ever so it wasn't like bringing back a Rock or an Austin or even a Goldberg where you hope you can recapture lapsed fans. The smart thing to do would have been to accept that Brock couldn't bring in the money you were paying him so instead look at it as a short term investment in building a new star. Ryback or Sheamus would have been just fine. I guess they are going to try that with Roman Reigns so we'll see.

[Matt D]

So the only time that Brock ever drew sufficiently as a main eventer was when he wasn't in wrestling. Got it.

[goc]

Pretty much.

[NintendoLogic]

I think an argument can be made that his current run as a draw has been disappointing too so far. He drew well with John Cena and Triple H on his first couple of pay-per-view shows, but since then he hasn't really justified his hefty price tag (as he isn't a huge merchandise seller or ratings draw to make up for cooling off as a PPV draw).

 

A big part of that was how he was booked. UFC isn't popular in most of the countries where WWE runs PPV, so Brock the UFC guy means nothing to them. His only value there was as an unstoppable monster, which went out the window when he lost his first match back. I think that's the best explanation for the Summerslam 2012 buyrate. If you remember, buys were way up from the previous year in the US but way down internationally.

[El Boricua]

 

This may have been mentioned already in the thread (apologies for asking if so), but when are the results going to be announced?

Probably the first Observer of November.

 

 

Thanks Bix!

 

If Patera stays on the ballot this year, does anyone know if he would move to the historical bracket next year? 1985 seems to be his last meaningful year (anything post jail I see as visible but not meaningful).

[elliott]

This is a serious question for voters even if it might seem fairly obvious. When considering a tag team, are you just looking at what the guys did as part of the tag team or are you thinking about the totality of their career? As an extension of that, do you look at their singles work when they were part of the team as part of the candidacy of the team? I guess what I really want to know is when voters are thinking about The Rock n Roll Express' candidacy, do Ricky Morton's main events against Flair come into play or are you JUST looking at what Ricky and Robert did together? Would Ricky Morton have had an easier time getting in the Hall after all these years than The Rock n Roll Express as a team?

 

I suspect most voters here would just be looking at the RnR's as a team and what Morton did before wouldn't count but the run against Flair would because he did it as a member of the RnR's. But I was curious what the thought process is for teams.

[NintendoLogic]

It depends on the team. If I'm not mistaken, the Freebirds were inducted largely as a way of getting Terry Gordy in through the back door.

[shakla]

 

 

This may have been mentioned already in the thread (apologies for asking if so), but when are the results going to be announced?

Probably the first Observer of November.

 

 

Thanks Bix!

 

If Patera stays on the ballot this year, does anyone know if he would move to the historical bracket next year? 1985 seems to be his last meaningful year (anything post jail I see as visible but not meaningful).

 

 

I don't know for sure, but I'd go 87-88 on Patera's "last meaningful year". When he came back after prison, he was in a fairly high-profile angle. You could possibly go 1989 since he was AWA Tag Champ, even though that promotion was a shell of its former self.

[El Boricua]

 

 

 

This may have been mentioned already in the thread (apologies for asking if so), but when are the results going to be announced?

Probably the first Observer of November.

 

 

Thanks Bix!

 

If Patera stays on the ballot this year, does anyone know if he would move to the historical bracket next year? 1985 seems to be his last meaningful year (anything post jail I see as visible but not meaningful).

 

 

I don't know for sure, but I'd go 87-88 on Patera's "last meaningful year". When he came back after prison, he was in a fairly high-profile angle. You could possibly go 1989 since he was AWA Tag Champ, even though that promotion was a shell of its former self.

 

 

 

It's interesting to see how one can define last meaningful year for purposes of moving someone from Modern to Historical. I can see valid arguments for any year between 85-89 as being Patera's last meaningful year, .

[JNLister]

IIRC, the cutoff is the last year that could be classed as counting towards your Hall of Fame credentials/case. Obviously that rules out 85-7 for Patera, and I don't think removing any of his career after that would detract from his case.

[El Boricua]

IIRC, the cutoff is the last year that could be classed as counting towards your Hall of Fame credentials/case. Obviously that rules out 85-7 for Patera, and I don't think removing any of his career after that would detract from his case.

 

That's why i was thinking of 85 as Patera's last meaningful year since he was still headlining house shows teaming with Studd against Andre and tag partner early in the year.

[Matt D]

It's probably too late for Mookie to do a really comprehensive Brock Lesnar-As-A-Wrestling-Draw overview isn't it?

[WrestlingPower]

When do the results come out?

[mookeighana]

When do the results come out?

 

Any week now. This week Dave is going to want to cover WWE Financial results and the UK Network non-launch which make me think unless it's a double issue, it won't be until next week at the earliest.