Kenta Kobashi

[JerryvonKramer]

Each case has specific things around it.

 

Dory I wouldn't say reaches "legendary" status until long after his reign is over, his work from 75-9 is what cemented his legacy.

 

Yes, defences against Baba, Inoki and Brisco are part of the story, but imagine he'd never gone back on the tours after 73 and I don't think you have the legend so much.

 

Terry is the same story really too, it's the feuds the Funks had that made them huge stars, not the title defences -- although they undoubtedly helped.

 

Race had been going on the tours from 73, if not earlier. He never strikes me as being hugely over in his title defences but he definitely worked Japan more before and after the reign.

 

Brisco also didn't seem particularly over, he worked as a de facto heel against Baba. His amateur credentials were surely talked up, as was the case wherever he worked. He also has a few post-title tag runs with Jerry, I believe but they are making up the numbers.

 

Flair, as we know, didn't particularly like working Japan and for whatever reason didn't like working with Jumbo much and preferred Tenryu or Fujinani as opponents. He's mostly professional in his Japan appearances; a bit toned down and more low key. He does carry himself as a champion -- in my view -- better than the previous four champions. But the fact he never has a sustained run outside of title defences may affect how fans remember him. It's possible.

 

My point only is that in terms of crowd reaction during title defences there is no real difference in how they treated any of the champions. They were coming in mostly against Inoki, Baba or Jumbo and the crowd are obviously gonna root for their own aces.

 

The title was over and therefore all the champs had to do is get the idea of themselves as the man to beat over. Tis why Dory never needed charisma he was perfect in the role.

 

I'm simply not buying this idea that the crowd didn't accept Flair in the role. I mean they had him back enough times.

 

Also, he seemed plenty over in that 92 match with Tenryu.

[JerryvonKramer]

Also, Jingus, where does this assumption that things like vocal selling or stooging wouldn't get over with the Japanese crowd come from?

 

Have you ever watched The Destroyer?

[Loss]

By the way, the 1978 tour wasn't just any tour. He got a pinfall win over Baba in a tag match, which showed they had plans for him. I'm not sure why he never toured in 1979-1980 and that would be interesting to discuss, but not in a thread about Kenta Kobashi.

[JerryvonKramer]

Agree that we should get off this or split off.

 

But one thing it's easy to forget about when looking at the tours is that Dory controlled the bookings and who he got in sometimes depended on where he was working during his US stints.

 

Look at this.

 

Flair worked Dory in St. Louis in Jan of 78:

01/27 St. Louis, MO Ric Flair beat Dory Funk, Jr.(21:01)

 

And look at that, he's on the next tour in April.

 

Do you think Japanese people just happen to love Texans or was it that Dory had a lot of friends and connections in Texas who got nice pay days for from Baba?

[ohtani's jacket]

Dory's first tour of Japan in 1969 was, and still is, a pretty big deal since he was the first NWA World Heavyweight champion to visit since Thesz, and defended the belt against Inoki and Baba at pivotal moments of their careers. It meant more than any tour Flair had or any matches Flair worked in Japan. Dory vs. Inoki is about far more famous in Japanese wrestling folklore than Jumbo/Flair regardless of which match-up was better. The Funks wouldn't have become the most famous and beloved baby faces of all-time if Jr. had just toured as champ, but his tours as champ were the most meaningful outside of Thesz'.

 

As for Brisco and Harley, I'm not sure what the feeling about Brisco is in Japan but he seems to have had a larger volume of title defenses during his run as champ which suggests he was more prominent. Race was revered in Japan. I don't know if it's really true (and I could research it if I can be bothered), but they used to say that in Japan if you achieved something 7 times you were considered a God of that thing and that Harley was considered a God of wrestling in Japan.

 

It's not that Flair wasn't important in Japan. He was the NWA champion through much of the 80s. But he didn't tour as prominently as former champs and worked for the clear number two as opposed to working JWA or the pre-Inoki worked shoots era where New Japan and All-Japan were in their formative stages.

 

What I was really trying to get at is that the Flair you love isn't the Flair that toured Japan. I think you see the Flair that toured Japan as another wrinkle in Flair's career showing his range and versatility. I wonder at times if working in Japan made him slightly uncomfortable, or if he simply should have played the heel champ role more. It doesn't really matter to me whether Flair was the Man in Japan or not, but it seems obvious to me that things that don't particularly resonate with you (like Misawa's stoicism) are being penalised in favour of Kobashi's similarity to Steamboat or Martel, which can only be personal bias and not an objective take on what was really going on.

[JerryvonKramer]

There's nothing I disagree with in your first four paragraphs. Nothing at all. What I objected to was this suggestion that Flair somehow tanked in Japan. He didn't, he was perfectly fine. That's all the point ever was.

 

The stuff about Misawa vs. Kobashi, which is how all this started, isn't quite true because, personally, I feel like I "get" Misawa and am pretty damn high on him. He does resonate with me. He does! I get stoicism because for god's sake I'm British! It's not like stoicism is some foreign concept. And I also grew up looking to Japan a lot, for various different reasons.

 

But ... And here's where we might come at an impasse, I don't really think Misawa's stoicism is as great as Kobashi's expressiveness. Whatever that means. I think Kobashi produces an additional sort of electricity in the building that Misawa doesn't.

 

The similarity to Martel and Steamer is actually immaterial since they both scored ... 4 for intangibles.

 

For some basis of comparison, here are some other guys on 6:

 

Ted DiBiase

The Sheik

Jumbo

Sgt. Slaughter

 

Three of the most over heel acts in history and Misawa's equivalent in the 80s.

 

Here are some other guys on 8:

 

Nick Bockwinkel

Bobby Heenan

Vince McMahon

Jim Cornette

 

And here are the guys at 10:

 

Hulk Hogan

Bruno Sammartino

Steve Austin

Ric Flair

Andre

 

I don't really see how that set of ratings is the result of any personal bias. The guys at 6 are all time great at generating heat and for portraying their characters in the ring, the guys at 8 are that and then some, the guys at 10 are transcendent.

 

I see Misawa as an all-time great for the intangibles, but not more. The 6 IS the credit for his amazing ability to be the stoical ace. If you think it's worth more than that cool. But I object to some accusation that I'm playing favourites.

[ohtani's jacket]

Well, I'm sorry I don't see how Misawa is on the level of Ted DiBiase, The Sheik or Slaughter, or how Jumbo is on that low for what it's worth. I don't see how Bockwinkel can possibly be an 8 and the other three weren't proper wrestlers. In the case of the latter three, I have no idea what intangibles could be so tangible that they'd rank ahead of Misawa. Who's your highest ranked Japanese wrestler for intangibles? Choshu?

[JerryvonKramer]

Well, there was someone who suggested Heenan should be a 10. All things considered, I think 8 is fair for him, Vince and Cornette, considering how special it was when any of them were ever in the ring. I mean Heenan was hugely over in the 70s and 80s in any match he had. Cornette's antics in Mid-South almost started riots, he's a very effective performer who had amazing heat. etc.

 

The suggestion that I am in any way anti-Japanese and that is factoring into my scores is vaguely insulting. And also not true. To some eyes, your post might suggest an anti-US bias on your part.

 

I think it is fair to say that character work and the "intangibles" side of wrestling is played up more in US wrestling than it is in Japanese wrestling, and hence you'll see more guys with higher ratings there. Japan favoured a stronger in-ring product and ran fewer angles and storylines. The idea that a Memphis wrestler might out score an AJ guy on intangibles isn't that far fetched, it's a reflection of the product.

 

I mean you've said you think Dory should be a 6 and Backlund should be a 7 which suggests to me that you haven't quite grasped what this rating is really about. It's not a measure of stardom, success, drawing or anything like that, it's a measure of character work and X factor.

[ohtani's jacket]

i wanted to know who your highest ranked wrestler for Japan was because I'm interested in the standard for Japanese wrestling. Nothing Vince, Cornette or Heenan did to get heat is remotely comparable to how performers drew heat in Japan so the idea that we should be able to put two and two together and realise why Cornette had so much more x factor than Misawa is not particularly helpful. On one hand you're saying it's not about stardom, drawing or anything like that, and on the other hand you're putting out how over guys were and how much heat they got. Then you're saying it's about angles and storylines and character work, which don't seem overly intangible to me, and x factor, which clearly is intangible. To me the notion of x factor or intangibles is "was there something about this guy that made him popular?" Something that may not be easy to explain or to measure, but something you can get a sense of. If Dory or Bob are a 0 or 1 then there's no logical reason why they should have ever gotten over anywhere. Neither of them were the most charismatic workers, but zero charisma? Neither of them were great character workers, but no character work whatsoever? Six to me is too low for an all-time great, so we clearly have different ideas about how to grade these things, but it's more informative to me how Misawa ranks compared to Rikidozan, Baba, Inoki, Choshu, Fujinami, Tiger Mask, Mutoh, Chono, Hashimoto, Maeda, Takada, Tenryu and Kawada so I have some idea what the baseline for Japanese workers.

[JerryvonKramer]

Choshu is a 9. He loses the 1 because sometimes during his big matches, I feel like he goes to sleep. He has knock out charisma though and is currently on par with the likes of Randy Savage.

 

Tenryu is a 7. He does a great line in contempt.

 

Kawada I've not decided on yet, but it's between a 7 and 8, I think. He has some fantastic facial expressions and does disdain probably better than anyone in history.

 

Fujinami will be lower, probably towards a 3 which is where I have Jack Brisco I think.

 

Not entirely sure what to do with Inoki and my solution MAY well be not to rate him at all. But probably a 9 or 10 despite how much he bores the crap out of me.

 

Also, and this is difficult to explain, it's not a scale from 0 to 10 out 10 it's a "GWE scale" where someone like Dory is a 0 and a Hogan is a 10.

 

I hope that makes some sense. It's not that I think Dory has zero charisma, it's that in terms of him as a GWE candidate relative to all of the others, he's a 0.

 

Imagine this somehow, if you can, as a means of rating five-star films against each other, as opposed to all the films ever made.

 

Make sense?

[ohtani's jacket]

Okay, I think I get it better than I did before.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've come to believe that, on his best day (and he had a lot of best days), Kobashi was the best wrestler ever to walk the planet. By which I mean he's not my number one overall, but if this was just a flat rating on the B metric, where Barry Windham is a 10, Kobashi is the 11 and would slam dunk be my #1 in a list done only on that metric.

 

Arguably the #1 offensive worker and the #1 seller. And as much as we might criticise later excesses, you don't have the sheer number of ***** he did unless you have all-time great psychology, which he did.

 

Transcendently great worker.

[JerryvonKramer]

Also, on the quality scale, I'd put my neck out to say that his ten career best individual performances are better than any other guy's ten best.

 

Not quantifiable as such but if you listed those out, I think Kobashi wins.

[Loss]

The best but not the greatest. I can buy that.

[JerryvonKramer]

The best but not the greatest. I can buy that.

You excel in the soundbite department, Loss.

[WingedEagle]

Also, on the quality scale, I'd put my neck out to say that his ten career best individual performances are better than any other guy's ten best.

 

Not quantifiable as such but if you listed those out, I think Kobashi wins.

 

This is basically what I'm weighing as I decide 1 vs. 2 for Kobashi. Gut says 1, head says 2.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Also, on the quality scale, I'd put my neck out to say that his ten career best individual performances are better than any other guy's ten best.

Not quantifiable as such but if you listed those out, I think Kobashi wins.

 

This is basically what I'm weighing as I decide 1 vs. 2 for Kobashi. Gut says 1, head says 2.

I think it might be a cool exercise to list them out.

 

If you don't want to, I might have a go later.

[WingedEagle]

Will look to do so tonight when I can look over some lists. What I think might be even more interesting is looking at the next 10 and seeing just how incredible they are as second tier performances.

[WingedEagle]

 

 

Also, on the quality scale, I'd put my neck out to say that his ten career best individual performances are better than any other guy's ten best.

Not quantifiable as such but if you listed those out, I think Kobashi wins.

This is basically what I'm weighing as I decide 1 vs. 2 for Kobashi. Gut says 1, head says 2.

I think it might be a cool exercise to list them out.

 

If you don't want to, I might have a go later.

 

 

So for Kobashi, I wanted to break out 10 of his top singles performances as well as a top 10 in tags. Not looking to be in any way definitive here but ID if you like All Japan / NOAH you're likely on board with most of these classics. This was also framed to show just how long he stretched out elite performances as well as that they came against folks other than Misawa & Kawada (though they're obviously heavily represented). Also dropping in a "next 10" for both singles and tags as these lists are just as impressive. As would the next 10 or 20.

 

Top 10 Singles:

Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi 7/29/93

Steve Williams vs. Kenta Kobashi 8/31/93

Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue 7/24/96

Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 1/20/97

Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 10/21/97

Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama 7/24/98

Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 10/31/98

Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama 5/26/00

Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa 3/1/03

Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama 4/25/04

 

10 More Singles:

Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi 9/4/91

Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kenta Kobashi 10/23/93

Steve Williams vs. Kenta Kobashi 9/3/94

Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue 7/24/95

Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 10/25/95

Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 6/11/99

Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshinari Ogawa 11/1/2003

Kenta Kobashi vs Takao Omori 4/15/00

Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama 7/10/04

Kenta Kobashi vs Minoru Suzuki, 1/8/05

 

 

 

Top 10 Tags & Multi-Man:

Jumbo Tsuruta & Kenta Kobashi vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen 7/15/89

Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi 10/19/90

Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi 4/20/91

Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Toshiaki Kawada vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi 5/22/95

Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs. Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat 5/25/92

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 6/1/93

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 12/3/93

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 5/21/94

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 6/9/95

Kobashi & Takayama vs Misawa & Akiyama, 12/2/07

 

 

 

Next 10 Tags & Multi-Man:

Jumbo Tsuruta & Great Kabuki & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Akira Taue & Kenta Kobashi 5/26/90

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue 6/5/92

Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa 7/2/93

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 10/15/95

Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari Ogawa vs Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama 3/6/99

Kobashi & Akiyama vs. Hansen & Taue 12/99

Misawa & Kobashi vs Akiyama & Nagata, 2/17/02

Akiyama & Tenryu vs Kobashi & Shiozaki 4/24/05

Akiyama & Tenryu vs Kobashi & Taue 9/18/05

Kobashi & Kensuke Sasaki vs. Tenryu & Nakajima 2/11/06

[Boss Rock]

Currently my pick for number 1 and while 5 years is a long time, it's going to be difficult to unseat him. Greatest offensive wrestler ever. It's not just the number of moves he had or how good they looked, but knowing when and how to bust them out. He obviously only did the Burning Hammer 7 times, but how many times did he bust out the Orange Crush? The antithesis of a GMSI worker. And even as his body broke down and he became more reliant on chops and half nelson suplexes, he still had the physical charisma to make them engaging. The same goes for his NOAH matches being very "big move, sell, big move, sell". As excessive as it could be, Kobashi could still make it engaging.

He's also the ideal "peak + longevity" wrestler for me. He started in '88 and by '90-'91 he was already really good. His '93 is the stuff of legend and from then until at least '05 or so he was arguably the best in the world (he still looked good in 2006 too). He was Misawa, Jun, and Hansens' best opponents, all 3 of whom are top 10 contenders (the Misawa and Hansen series' arguably being the two greatest of all time). He was also an excellent tag worker in a variety of roles with a variety of partners. He could play the unsinkable underdog with Misawa or the big brother clean up hitter with Kikuchi and Jun. The early 90's trios matches mainly focused on the Kawada-Taue and Misawa-Jumbo dynamics, but Kobashi's selling and face in peril segments were pretty crucial.

The only two criticisms I can think of are that he never really played heel and that he didn't have that one big broomstick carryjob (the closest I can think of is the great Tokyo Dome match against post-neck injury Chono). But even the folks I have in contention for the top 5 have their flaws. Kobashi is as close to perfect as I can think of. Arguably the greatest seller and greatest babyface ever. Greatest singles match ever (1/20/1997). The greatest tag match ever (6/9/1995). I just don't know how I'm going to be able to deny him the top spot.

[WingedEagle]

My #1 last time.  Won't fall too far if he falls at all.

[Microstatistics]

The definitive #1 contender. All-time great offensive wrestler, all-time great seller, and probably the best babyface ever. He was also more consistent, durable, adaptable, and smarter than any of his immediate contemporaries. He was hardly perfect though: His meathead, macho showdowns could be dull as hell, Chopbashi was a poor template for modern wrestling (though at least Kobashi had crippling injuries as a legitimate reason to embrace the route) and he occasionally had off matches (the 2003 Nagata match is awful).

But, frankly, all of that is immaterial to an extent. His biggest case is simply his output, which might actually dwarf that of any other wrestler.

 

[Jmare007]

On 9/30/2014 at 11:26 PM, Jmare007 said:

The more I re-watch from Kobashi, the more he falls of my list of puro guys. Dude is still in the elite but 7 years ago he would've been in my top 10, now it's more of 20-30 kinda guy.

Seven years after posting this I feel pretty much the same. Late 90's Kobashi is just too much of too much for me and is the worst of the 4 pillars in that regard. I find some of his NOAH stuff jaw dropping but there's a the "here he goes again" doing too much for me. For some reason it bothers me more with Kobashi pretty much anyone else though top 30 is still incredibly high so it's not like I think he's not incredible most of the time.

 

[Tetsujin]

On 4/16/2021 at 3:32 AM, Microstatistics said:

The definitive #1 contender. All-time great offensive wrestler, all-time great seller, and probably the best babyface ever. He was also more consistent, durable, adaptable, and smarter than any of his immediate contemporaries. He was hardly perfect though: His meathead, macho showdowns could be dull as hell, Chopbashi was a poor template for modern wrestling (though at least Kobashi had crippling injuries as a legitimate reason to embrace the route) and he occasionally had off matches (the 2003 Nagata match is awful).

 

But, frankly, all of that is immaterial to an extent. His biggest case is simply his output, which might actually dwarf that of any other wrestler.

 

 

I hardly disagree with that take. The Nagata match is amazing, because it's a great example of the ace Kobashi formula: he's a freaking mountain, but he can be damaged, and he showed more and more vulnerability as the match went on and Nagata persevered. I remember a sequence in which Nagata gave him like, five enzuigiris, and Kobashi sold each one of them differently: first he no sells it, then he tries to come back, then he starts to have spaghetti legs, then he's down to a knee... Near the end there's also a struggle on the top rope for a big bomb that felt crucial. I appreciate stuff like that in maximalist matches, much better than just spamming spots with cero build up and treat all of them equally no matter who the moves and wrestlers are.

[Cap]

Working #2 and it is almost a coin flip between Kobashi and Bryan for the top spot.  I really don't have much to say about him that hasn't been said 100 times. I will however be interested in the scrutiny that he will surely face. I'm just not sure I'm going to be very good at applying it myself.