Nobuhiko Takada

[El-P]

They are U-Style guys. Sakata was in RINGS too... I don't see why it's pointless to compare shoot stylists when you are trying to figure out who is the best of them. If you think he has a pro style mind, how does he compare to someone like Alexander Otsuka or other BattlARTS guy?

 

I would need to watch U-style, which was the island after the flood.

Battlarts is both insanely fun and suppremely overrated. I like the best guys over there, but no. They don't compare.

 

 

And yes, being good at matwork is important, when you are trying to do matwork. You can't work a 20 minute match that is all dramatic ropebreaks and aggressive striking the entire time. So Takada fills the time in between by lying around.

 

No, he doesn't. I just went through a dozen or so of UWF & UWF-I matches in the last week. You can say "Takada is sleeping on the floor", it doesn't make it true. Takada was a decent matworker. Not great at all, but decent. Enough for what he wanted to do, especially when others could carry the load on that matter, like Sano, Fujiwara, Yamazaki etc...

 

About the Onita comparison: is that a reference to him fighting dudes like Albright and Vader?

 

No. That's just how he worked his escapes and knock downs. It's just like Onita would do in his own way and his own style. Just milking shit up, having a great body language and facial expressions.

[Jetlag]

I can say Takada is sleeping because I see it in his matches and I can point to examples. Which I did in my post. If you had an argument to why you think he's a decent matworker and why he ranks above, say, Daisuke Ikeda, with examples to point to, or if there was some Takada stuff to fill out his resume, like something against a lesser opponent or an example of Takada carrying somebody, I might consider ranking him. (i.e. not a "big Match")

 

 

I don't see how sprawling for takedowns and fighting for escapes from submissions is comparable to avoid getting tossed into explosive garbage in any way. These matches are laid out in completely different ways... the comparison goes way over my head.

[jdw]

 

You don't get great matwork from Lawler matches simply because there's no matwork in them... there's a long Lawler/Race title match which has some great matwork, by the way.

 

 

 

The matwork in the Lawler-Race draw is boring. Compare it with the 60 minutes Backlund-Valentine or the 60 minute Backlund-Inoki or the Funk-Jumbo title match or the long Jumbo-Mil match or Destroyer vs Mil or countless other matches of the era will get across what a snooze-fest the matwork in that match was.

 

Just to be clear: it's not fully Jerry's fault. Race's strongest point wasn't matwork, especially when needed to fill that much time with it. His 30 minute draw with Baba is similarly filled with loads of subpar matwork, and pretty much everyone whose watched Baba in the 60s into the 70s knows that Baba could work it on the mat. So put this one on Jerry not being a strong matworker, Race not being a strong matworker, and then being stuck in a 60 minute match where you're forced to kill loads of time doing what neither is really all that good at.

 

Second side note: it's because of stuff like the Jumbo-Funk or the Baba & Jumbo vs Funks 1977 match or Robinson & Horst vs Funks match that Terry is a really serious GOAT candidate. The sum beetch could flat out go on the mat in addition to all the other stuff that he was off the charts doing. Dory has the "worker of holds" rep, but not only could Terry work them as well, he would work them in really interesting and theatrical and dramatic ways.

[Loss]

Thinking about some candidates in some very unconventional ways today, but here's something to throw out.

 

How much does it help Takada that he got over as the real deal in spite of being a total fraud? In a carny world, that should be a major positive. Inoki did it on a grander scale, but it was also much easier to pull off in Inoki's heyday.

 

I think it's worth looking at how Takada performed and how he was booked. Why did he get over as a tough guy? Obviously, a large part of it was smoke and mirrors, like the crap they pulled with Trevor Berbick in UWFI. But ECW tried a variation of the same thing with Paul Varelans, and Taz never became Takada, despite both guys working for insurgent companies in similar spots. So how much of Takada being perceived as the real deal comes down to ringwork?

 

If you want to compare Takada to Brock, Brock is the more dynamic performer, but Takada was able to get over in a similar way without the real-life cred. There's something impressive about that. Whether that's all down to presentation is worth a debate.

[El-P]

How much does it help Takada that he got over as the real deal in spite of being a total fraud?

 

I don't know if he got over as the real deal. I don't think those PRIDE debacle were well recieved. Takada's in-ring career really didn't survive much longer after those, although his super-stardom as a pro-wrestler totally helped establish the brand. Takada was a huge star before, and stayed a big name afterward as a celebrity, but he kinda followed the Onita path to me. He's a terrific carny.

 

On the working side, I'm going through UWF vs NJ feud right now, and man I forgot how great Takada already was by then. I'll say it out front, he's the best worker of the bunch alongside Fujinami and Maeda (and before someone jumps at my throat, yeah, I think Fujiwara going all headbutty and shit just doesn't work as well as him being all great as a shoot-style worker in both UWFs, although I enjoyed his blood feud with Kengo Kimura a lot, a few douchy no-selling spots aside, so he's one step below although still really good). Reawatching Takada, inlcuding tons of matches I hadn't seen before (I went through both UWF's in the last few years), I'm getting closer and closer to throw him into the top 10, which is higher than I did during the SC poll.

[Loss]

I'm referring to Takada more at the peak of his stardom, 1995-1996 and before.

[El-P]

I'm referring to Takada more at the peak of his stardom, 1995-1996 and before.

 

He couldn't be seen as the real deal when he was submitting to a Mutoh shitty figure four I believe. Still, that didn't keep him from going all shooty later, so. Yeah, terrific carny like I said.

 

And really, should the HUSTLE work count for something ? I have no idea what he was saying over there, but it was so cool and goofy.

[Loss]

You just walked right into me comparing Takada to Van McCoy with that one.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm almost hesitant to post this now because I don't want it to be read as a troll of El-P, but I watched the acclaimed Fujiwara v. Takada match last night and my god was Takada bad in it. In order for shootstyle of any sort to work for me you either need a brilliant stylist (Han for example), or a real sense of urgency. I can't say the match had neither, but Takada brought absolutely zero to both categories. He did nothing interesting, different or "expert" like on the mat, nor did his strikes offset that to any meaningful degree. Worse, he showed no real urgency at all. Late in the match there is a moment where he sells getting up from a knockdown in exactly the fashion I would expect Shawn Michaels to sell it if Shawn was hopped up on 'ludes. That's not a compliment.

 

I thought it was a very good match because of Fujiwara, but it should have been a great match and didn't hit that level because the performance was so distractingly one-sided. In one sense I suppose this is a match to point to to illustrate how the myth of Takada the shooter was really impressive since there was no real foundation to it at all, but I left this match thinking he was one of the least interesting wrestlers of all time. At this point I would feel more comfortable labeling him the Japanese Don Muraco than anything else.

[El-P]

I went into details about that match already. It's like we didn't watch the same match, but it's not the first time it happens, and I'm cool with that. To me Takada is better that Fuji at this point. To quote Will : "Different strokes for different people".

[Childs]

Which match are we talking about? The earlier 1990 one or the later? I thought Takada was a lot better in the second one.

[Dylan Waco]

The Dec one

[Childs]

You mean Oct.? God, if you hated him in that one, don't watch the Feb. match.

[Dylan Waco]

Yes Oct sorry, read the file wrong

[fxnj]

Meltz's Sakuraba piece from a few days ago has some really good explanations on how fans saw shoot style at its peak

 

http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/10/18/9494533/long-after-his-prime-sakuraba-is-in-the-position-to-save-japanese-mma

 

I get the impression that the foundations behind Takada being seen as legit were always pretty shaky, with it pretty much being due to to shoot style coming along when fans became skeptical of traditional promotions and buying into it because there wasn't much out there. Things started chipping away by the time MMA came along and the 1994 Yoji Anjoh thing definitely didn't help. I think the NJPW and PRIDE were Takada cashing out on his stardom while it was starting to crumble. Definitely not the same thing as a Brock or even Angle with legit cred.

[jdw]

Pro wrestling fans didn't really give a shit about Brock and Kurt being "legit". They were hardly the only amatuer wrestlers who went pro after Jack Brisco. They got over on their "pro wrestling" ability.

 

Did Brock have extra cha-ching after his UFC days? Who knows. I'd argue that Brock had a better idea of how to get over from his time in UFC, and found a WWE that was on some level willing to let him work in a way that made him standout. Timing on some level was important there, as were workers (Cena and Trip initially and Taker later) who were willing to let him doing his thing. Whatever positives or negatives one thinks of Cena, he does have a bit of Misawa-like streak of letting an opponent do what ever he wants in addition to getting his own shit in. He certainly was at a level where he didn't have to work that first match like that. Of course we all hated Trip beating him at Mania, and arguably he only really took off by beating Taker.

 

Legit really means far less to wrestling fans that some people want to make it out to be. Wrestling fans know it's fake shit.

[Jingus]

Did Brock have extra cha-ching after his UFC days?

Considering that Brock was a much bigger PPV draw in UFC than he ever was in the WWE, I'd say he definitely had more mainstream crossover appeal once he returned in 2012 than when he left in 2004. Of course, the buyrate pattern of the WWE over the last few years has been so chaotic and random, it's hard to say exactly who's drawing exactly what.

 

And there are some fans who care about being LEGIT~!, but thankfully they're a small minority. If you want to experience their awfulness, go to any Youtube video featuring one of the leeeegiiiiit rasslers and you'll see dozens of assholes all bitching and moaning about how Brock would kill Cena in a real fight.

[El-P]

It's kinda funny. Over the last few years, the whole Takada thing almost became a running gag with me. Liking Takada after 2000 was "dated", because so many "great" workers were "discovered", like really contemporary guys no one ever talked about before like Jerry Lawler and Yoshiaki Fujiwara. All of a sudden, some old favourites from the pre-Benoit Workrate Guilt era became suspects. And Takada had to take a dive in the pantheon of great workers of the past, to let his place in the rankings to more adept guys like Mark Henry (who's indeed a decent big guy BTW).

 

I never really cared to make a project of rewatching old Takada stuff I already knew about and the vast majority of the Takada stuff I hadn't seen before. Then, I happened to watch lots of UWF. And while I gained a new appreciation for guys like Maeda (whom I really only knew from his past his prime RING days and one or two big UWF vs NJ tag matches), Fujiwara (again, mostly seen his 90's headbutt-choke maestria) and Super Tiger (whom I really never was a big fan of and thought he was overrated, even before the DVDVR sets, would you believe such a thing could happen ?), I noticed Takada was actually already really good as a rookie. Then went on to other important business, like rewieving the dying days of WCW and watch the entire SMW library.

 

Then after this new GWE poll started, I decided I was gonna watch some more UWF, because I like it. The second version. And I watched more Takada. And to my surprise, but not really, I found out he was arguably the best worker of the promotion next to Maeda, with Fuji a close third (although I'd say his best matches ever happened then).

 

Then I watched some random NJ vs UWF-I stuff, to see if what I remembered held up. And yes, Mutoh did drag Takada down the crapper at this point, but Takada was terrific as this UWF-I ace challenging NJ on their own turf. Not a big deal for him, he was always a pro-style worker at heart.

 

And then I watched the most famous 80's feuds, including NJ vs Ishin Gundan and UWF vs NJ. And Takada was fucking great there, easily the second or third best worker, again next to Maeda and Fuji. And I mean Fujinami.

 

While I was at it, I rewatched stuff I loved back then, and yes, Takada was indeed a terrific junior champ, his series against Koshinaka is tremendous and he even got a watchable match out of the Cobra (not a small feat).

 

When I put everything back together, I realized that Takada pretty much was good to great for most of his career, and in every role he was put into : young UWF lion, young NJ prodigy fighting against Ishin Gundan, UWF third guy punking out NJ tradition, IWGP junior champ, UWF up and coming big star challenging the old masters Maeda & Fujiwara, UWF-I ace fighting against the odds (in a Onita/Cena way and flair for big spectacle) and UWF-I ace coming back to NJ and taking away their title.

 

The one thing Takada could be, was a bit lazy and not give that much of a fuck if his opponent wasn't motivated. The two Mutoh matches are the illustration of this, but who could blame him, really ?

 

I really never tried to prove an old point by rewatching Takada matches. If I thought they actually weren't that good, I would have gladly said that I overrated this guy in the past. But as I went through it, the opposite occured. Takada was like 21 on my 2006 list. He would be 8 or 9# this time. Honestly, I enjoy watching Takada more than Liger, whose style like I said I haven't cared for more than a decade now. So maybe he would get the #8 slot. Maybe also because, since MMA matters and PRIDE was pro-wrestling after all, well, Takada's terrible fake shootstyle stuff jumpstarted the biggest company of the late 90's and basically MMA's peak in Japan. Damn, now I'm using Dan's arguments to praise good ol'Nobihuko. And really, who doesn't love General Takada in HUSTLE ? Fuck Yamada, he worked too much with Chris Benoit anyway. Takada is my #8. And that's it.

[DR Ackermann]

I'm not really a fan of Takada's and I don't remember him being more than decent in his first NJPW run. But I think he was surprisingly good in the UWF NJPW feud a few years later and I thought his matches with Koshinaka were fine despite their rep with some. In fact I thought the broken fingers match was fantastic. I have seen some stuff from the 90s that was mixed but i thought his second 1990 match with Fujiwara was a top 5 MOTY. I haven't seen much of his 80s work outside of New Japan either but thinking about what I have seen, the guy has some glaring flaws, but so does Flair. I'm going to make an effort to fill in my viewing gaps between now and the end of this and see if he ranks. He definitely has a shot at the back end at the very least.

[jdw]

As #7777 to Jerome hitting #6666, let me just say that it's great to see some Takada Luv. A wrestler who entertained me a lot over the years.

[Childs]

John, would you instinctively place Takada in the top tier of Japanese workers from his era? To your mind, what were his greatest strengths? Just curious because I haven't seen you write a lot about him in recent years.

[jdw]

Beats the hell out of me. Haven't watched much of of his stuff in the past decade.

 

Of the top of my head of his age peers as far as who I'd prefer to watch a random match/performance from, I would probably place him in the middle of the group that includes Kawada, Misawa, Kobashi, Taue, Hash, Mutoh, Hase, Chono, Sasaki, Maeda... I'm probably forgetting someone in there.

 

Strengths? I think Jerome hit on them above and in his various UWF 2.0 reviews recently tossed in the Yearbook recently. One that Jerome didn't touch on it specifically since he was focusing on UWF 2.0: I also liked Takada's bend-don't-break ability to work with people outside the confines of UWF-style. More so than the rest of the top UWF guys, at least until Yamazaki found his grove in 1996 in New Japan. Folks like to crap on the Cobra match, but I'd much rather pop it in than watch Misawa against Steamboat, Bret or Albright. That's not something that makes me toss Misawa on the woodpile, but I do give Takada kudos for finding a middle ground to work with Cobra in a way that rocked that crowd. Frankly, any goofiness in the match isn't anymore goofy than the goofiness we see in a typical Flair match.

[elliott]

I ranked Takada 94th in 2016. I agree with Loss in that I think the tide turned too strongly against Takada. I don't think he's a top 20 performer or anything like that, but I don't feel bad about ranking him 94th. He's not the mat wrestler that Tamura or Fujiwara is, but he's great in big huge spectacles and I love big huge spectacles. Matches against Vader, Hashimoto, Tenryu, Maeda, Fujiwara, Backlund, Albright, Hase, Yamazaki. Takada has more than enough output that I think he's a worthy contender for the list, but I don't consider him a lock. Might fall off but might stay on. 

[Microstatistics]

I agree with Loss too. Takada was perhaps the biggest sufferer of the adverse end of the pendulum effect in 2016. I don't think he is a super worker or anything but he has been in too many great matches to completely dismiss him. Yes, many were against great workers but they were hardly carry jobs as Takada more than held up his end (sometimes even outperformed his opponent). I'm sort of in a similar boat as elliott. Takada is a guy who should make it but isn't a lock per se.