Fuerza Guerrera

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[Grimmas]

90's recommendations please. I'm loving his 80's stuff. So smooth and his reliance on fake and real low blows is always a highlight.

[Loss]

I think Fuerza approaches every match by asking himself the question, "What's the least amount of credibility I can retain and still have a good match?" I love the guy.

 

Here's what I'd recommend off the top of my head as far as singles matches go. There are more than this though.

 

Fuerza Guerrera vs El Pantera (05/04/90)

Fuerza Guerrera vs Octagon (11/01/91)

Fuerza Guerrera vs Misterioso (12/08/91)

Fuerza Guerrera vs Octagon (01/31/92)

[dawho5]

I always love watching Fuerza. He really gets his role as a rudo and seems willing to go to almost any length to play it. Also, the spinebuster/ballshot/did he do a ballshot? stuff is gold every time I see it.

[Graham Crackers]

I think Fuerza approaches every match by asking himself the question, "What's the least amount of credibility I can retain and still have a good match?" I love the guy.

 

Here's what I'd recommend off the top of my head as far as singles matches go. There are more than this though.

 

Fuerza Guerrera vs El Pantera (05/04/90)

Fuerza Guerrera vs Octagon (11/01/91)

Fuerza Guerrera vs Misterioso (12/08/91)

Fuerza Guerrera vs Octagon (01/31/92)

There is one spot that is the definitive Fuerza moment to me. I believe it's in one of those Octagon matches but it's been a long time. He bodyslams his opponent close to one corner but goes to the furthest possible corner to climb the turnbuckles. He does it with such confidence that I started thinking "Man, Fuerza's more athletic than I thought." and then he just faceplants.

 

I think that Super Astro, Atlantis y El Faraón vs. Fuerza Guerrera, Blue Panther y Emilio Charles (8/18/89) may be his definitive performance. I have watched this thing over and over again since I finished up the lucha set. This is what I wrote:

 

Fuerza fucking Guerrera. THAT is an awesome Fuerza Guerrera performance. Fuerza is such a fucking goof. I always love the Fuerza bump, especially when it gets used as a miscommunication spot. I love Atlantis teasing a dive against Blue Panther then turning and slapping Fuerza right off the apron. I love Fuerza eating a punch from Faraon, spinning around, and accidentally posting himself. I love Fuerza's spaghetti legged selling of all of Faraon's punches. I loved Fuerza selling his frustration at the victory roll getting blocked before the finish and selling the pain in his nose after it gets countered. I love Fuerza Guerrera.

 

But like a great rudo he never steals the show. It's the spectacular tecnico offense that makes most of the list of highlights in this match. There is tons of graceful high flying from Atlantis and Super Astro while Faraon keeps it simple with good matwork and great punches. The rudo team does a great job with their miscommunication spots and stooging and it makes an already great batch of tecnicos look better. I'm not sure if the "Atlantis hits the quebradora on all of his opponents" spot has ever looked better and I thought the fake out with Blue Panther almost blocking it at the end made it even better. The dives at the end were amazing too. Atlantis has a great fast tope and Super Astro's tope en reversa to the outside was insane. This is a high end trios match.

[DylanZero]

VERY impressed at his performance in these matches. Shockingly slipped under the radar until now and that Trios Graham mentioned may have single handidly increased every single person's standing in my eyes and that says something when BP & Atlantis are as high as they are already. Truly great stuff.

 

Fuerza's looking like a nice comfy "yes" on my list. Will see more though.

[GOTNW]

A lock for my list. His character work is amazing, he's a great bumper, his punches look good and he's maybe the best ever at taking cheapshots. My favourite Fuerza Guerrera spot so far has been when he manically ran away from a tope and ended up ramming his head on the ringpost while doing so. He'll set up a high risk maneuver, almost slip, go "no fucking way am I doing this" and then readjust and it's goofy and neat and screams pro wrestling.

[KB8]

Yeah, Fuerza is one of my five favourite wrestlers of all-time and he's a stone cold lock.

[Jimmy Redman]

Fuerza might not end up my highest ranked luchador, but he's definitely my favourite.

 

What a ridiculous, goofy bastard. He is absolutely everything I want in a rudo. People have mentioned them, but he just brings so many little touches to matches, and they're such Fuerza touches. All of the ballshot work, all of the overambitious diving and faceplanting, all of the insane bumps, he can't help but stamp a match with his personality. And yet he has this uncanny ability to stand out while at the same time not overshadowing the other guy or guys in the ring.

 

He's awesome. A top half guy for me.

[Dylan Waco]

Mixed feelings about him. I love his schtick, he's a great stooge, and a great bumper. His best singles matches are excellent. He's a much better grappler than most would probably give him credit for. I think he expresses his inner rudoness as well or better than any other rudo I can think of.

 

On other other hand he does not resonate with me the way someone like an Emilo Charles Jr. does. It's hard to explain because I suspect others see him as a character who is especially larger than life, and I do too....when he's at his most Fuerzaest. If he's doing a crane pose on the top rope I know some classically dumb ass shit is about to happen. But if he's not obviously gesturing he sort of fades out of the picture to me. It's an odd criticism to make, but with someone like a Charles if he leaves the screen in a tag or trios I'm always looking for him. With Guerrera I completely forget he's even there until he's back.

 

I actually do think he's a great worker. He also works a style that is theoretically something I would love. But unlike La Fiera, Pirata Morgan, Perro Aguayo, and other luchadors that I put at the level below the absolute top tier, he has not completely grabbed me yet. I'll watch some more trios and see here he falls in a month.

[cad]

Fuerza's got Emilio beat in one on ones. So many of Emilio's matches leave me wishing they were better, with the 1989 title match with Dandy still ranking as the most disappointing match I've ever seen. They're not even bad, they just could be better. Fuerza's dossier might not be any better in terms of net star rating, but he pulled that down against Octagon and Gallo Tapado. It's not so much about carryjobs as it is that there's a just higher benchmark when wrestling Atlantis than when wrestling Octagon.

 

Fuerza I think had a higher capacity for ingenuity than Emilio. Fuerza would do spots, and not just his standard ones, that I couldn't imagine anyone else doing. Emilio's was more of a physical genius, knowing exactly how to best contort his body when taking a move or bump. Emilio was a great, captivating figure in the 1989 program with Dandy but that's really the only time when I see him as being on Fuerza's level as the leader of a team. Emilio's always been one of my guys in a way that Fuerza hasn't, but when I actually think about their records Fuerza's simply impresses me more. If I'm judging then Fuerza gets the duke.

[ohtani's jacket]

Emilio is a really disappointing singles match worker. It's not that his singles matches are bad as such, they're just slight and feel too short. He's one of the all-time great trios worker, though. I could hear an argument for him being a better trios worker than Fuerza but it's a bit like choosing between your kids. I agree with cad above that Fuerza was better at being the leader of the team and I think that's because his star shone brighter. Emilio was like the ultimate number two guy. If I were the lead rudo, Emilio would be the first guy I'd want on my team.

[Jimmy Redman]

This isn't his thread, but that is basically the perfect description of Emilio: the world's best #2 on the rudo team.

[cad]

I've long thought of Emilio as the Arn Anderson of Mexico, except you have to imagine that Arn has cut a deal with the devil and traded away his dignity for a full head of hair.

 

I don't know if Fuerza is the anybody of Mexico. Like one of this thread's earlier posts said, he has a singular approach to wrestling and a singular idea of what wrestling greatness is. There are times when I think he's just as clever as Negro Casas, but unlike Casas he didn't seem interested in wrestling the kind of world class match where fans leave the arena thinking those two guys are the two best out there. Of course, again, Octagon's not the type of wrestler who's ideal for something like that.

[elliott]

I ranked Fuerza Guerrera 95th in 2016 and I completely blew it with that one. Fuerza is one of those people where I want to watch literally everything thats made tape. The famous Octagon match is one of the best matches I've ever seen. But beyond that he's just endlessly entertaining. Perhaps my tune will change on a proper deep dive, but his schtick has always really connected for me and even when he's the 4th or 5th most important guy in a trios match, he tends to stand out.

[Grimmas]

Few things in wrestling I love more than heels who are committed to cheating! Fuerza rules in that way. Some recommendations please.

[ohtani's jacket]

Fuerza was incredible under Pena in both CMLL and AAA but then it's a straight drop. Even when his stuff is decent, he's still not the same guy. The worst thing about it is that you lose all the schtick. There was always that one brilliant moment in every Fuerza performance where he did something completely phenomenal, but for some reason he stops doing it, and I can't figure out why as it mostly involved physical comedy. He just stops being entertaining. A brilliant performer under Pena, but a really short run by lucha standards. 

[cad]

I don't get dinging Fuerza for a lack of longevity, like at all. He was born in the early 1950s, same as guys like Americo Rocca. He was over 40 for all of those AAA matches with Rey, Panther, and the gang. Was he supposed to be a force at age 50? You can see from what little we have on him that he was good in the '80s too. And wasn't it 2016 when people were praising him for still being able to have a good match with Octagon at 60+?

If the problem is that he wasn't great after 1995 or so, well, that's still six years he was a great worker. Most guys, even the great ones, aren't genuinely great for that long.

[ohtani's jacket]

It's not a question of longevity in terms of his career. The problem is that he stops being brilliant in the same way that Psicosis did, and Ohtani, and Mayumi Ozaki. It's lucha. Fuerza could have been 50 and still been entertaining as third guy in a trios match. I don't know how long his run was. I'd be interested to see if he was any good before Pena took over. I don't think six years is very favorable compared to Santo, Casas, Satanico, Panther, or Atlantis. 

[NintendoLogic]

For those of you who are taking moral character into account, using a live chicken as a weapon is a clear case of animal abuse.

 

[cad]

15 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

It's not a question of longevity in terms of his career. The problem is that he stops being brilliant in the same way that Psicosis did, and Ohtani, and Mayumi Ozaki. It's lucha. Fuerza could have been 50 and still been entertaining as third guy in a trios match. I don't know how long his run was. I'd be interested to see if he was any good before Pena took over. I don't think six years is very favorable compared to Santo, Casas, Satanico, Panther, or Atlantis. 

See, Atlantis is a guy I would say was great for about four or five years. Even if he delivered a great match in 2000 or 2014 he wasn't the consistently electric presence he'd been in the EMLL glory days. Satanico's harder to pin down because his best stuff was in the 1980s and harder to document, but '90s Satanico wasn't exactly a great worker anymore, so it's hard to say how long he was great vs. how long Fuerza was. He'd have to have been special as early as the 1970s to have a big edge on Fuerza.

Almost every '80s Fuerza match makes him look good. DJ Spectro recently uploaded a fancam from 1985-86 in which Fuerza works hard and has a good match in Arena Pista Revolucion, the third string EMLL arena in Mexico City.

On 4/25/2021 at 1:42 PM, Grimmas said:

Few things in wrestling I love more than heels who are committed to cheating! Fuerza rules in that way. Some recommendations please.

The list at the beginning of the thread is a good place to start. On a smaller scale, I remember when he came back to Arena Mexico in 1995 he was walking around ringside, kneeing Fiera in the groin and then kissing the hand of some woman who always had front row seats. It was this match: Blue Panther y Fuerza Guerrera Regresan a la Arena Mexico en 1995. I thought that captured Fuerza's essence quite nicely.

[ohtani's jacket]

Well, it depends on how loosely you use the term great. Satanico, to me, was still a great worker in the early 90s. I don't love his AAA work, but the hair match with Morgan is one of my favorite Satanico bouts. He wasn't that great when he returned to CMLL, aside from the odd trios match here and here, until he earned back their trust and was given the opportunity to have the Tarzan Boy and GdI feuds. I am up to 2002 in my viewing and Satanico has looked great in every performance. I can't say the same for Fuerza. He's had one or two performances that show he wasn't isn't washed up, but even when he's given the perfect opportunity to shine in the trio with Wagner and Panther, he hardly does anything interesting. I can't understand why he's not able to do a great heel spot or something amusing. To be fair, Wagner hasn't been great either. Atlantis is always good. He's had some bad matches over the years, but he's carried the tecnico side in so many trios matches. He's the best tecnico trios match worker that I've seen. 

I don't want to sound too down on Fuerza. I'll see his praises to the moon if it's his earlier stuff, but I can't pretend that his later stuff isn't a disappointment. 

[KB8]

Fuerza was my number 46 in 2016 and I don't think there's any way he doesn't land top half again in 2026. If this was a question of favourites, Fuerza would be in my top 5. Even in matches where he has a minimal role, or even matches that are otherwise not good, there'll pretty much always be a Fuerza moment that I get a kick out of. Just one of the absolute greatest shtick workers of all time and someone who will never, ever have any qualms about looking like a complete moron at least once during a match. It's been a long time since I've watched a Fuerza title match, but I think he's a bit underrated as a mat worker at this point, maybe in part because his name first and foremost makes you think of the shtick or the legendary performances against Octagon. Consistently fun (at worst) in trios matches, and easily one of the best performers in 90s AAA (where a lot of great wrestlers could be disappointing relative to their stuff elsewhere). I watched enough 2000s Fuerza a while back to know that I still think he's entertaining after his peak, but I guess OJ's point about him not necessarily having the crazy longevity is worth considering. Even still he'll do well on my ballot. Fuerza forever. 

 

FUERZA GUERRERA YOU SHOULD WATCH:

w/Lobo Rubio v El Hijo del Santo & Atlantis (EMLL, 11/25/83)

v Pantera II (CMLL, 5/13/90)

v Octagon (CMLL, 11/1/91)

w/Blue Panther & Psicosis v Rey Misterio Jr., Octagon & El Hijo del Santo (AAA, 3/16/95)

w/Psicosis, Jerry Estrada & Pentagon v El Hijo del Santo, Octagon, Rey Misterio Jr. & La Parka (AAA, 7/8/95)

[cad]

That match with Pantera, already listed several times in this thread, was when everything clicked for me with Fuerza. Yeah, he was a great entertainer who could make things happen with limited workers, but he really did have as much talent as anyone. If he'd wanted to, he could have presented himself as a technical genius and a physical beast and pulled it off. That just wasn't how he saw wrestling or his own place in that world. Instead he worked this brash comedic style that constantly teetered on the edge of falling into farce but never quite did. Here he takes a meaningless comedy bump in the middle of a match and then makes a fan at ringside flinch. A couple of minutes later he's arguing with Virginia Aguilera, who isn't flinching for anybody. This is all while the most famous match in his career is going on around him. There was something compelling about him that made his battles matter even if he himself tried to look inept. And he was such a bumbler and so charming that no one could really hate him.

Fuerza finished 155th last time. I was surprised by that then and I'm surprised by it now. I thought that he was one of the Mexican workers whose reputation preceded them and that he'd get votes even from people who weren't big lucha fans. For me the big question with him is whether his self effacing style would work in a big match against a great like Hijo del Santo. There was that match with Negro Casas from LA. That was pretty good. I'm leaning toward yes, that he was a genius and could find a way to make it happen. At his peak he was one of the best in the country, the second best CMLL worker in 1990 and number one in 1991. They had him all over TV in this period, asking him to do gutsy stuff like feud with two guys at once, or turn Misterioso into a somebody, or make a mask match with a retired guy an event that anyone would want to see. He's famous for his time in AAA, but Peña didn't put him in starring roles his first few years there, and though still great AAA Fuerza was more showman than the well rounded worker of 1990-91. Eventually all the travel, and managing his outside business, and his turn at promoting shows himself, and years of dealing with the juicy one probably did wear him down. He's pushing seventy now, and people were still salivating at the thought of a Fuerza mask match, this potential one against an opponent who just turned sixty. Like I said, the man has a compelling presence to him.

Fuerza sampling:
FG, Al Rojo Vivo and Talisman vs Javier Cruz, Hombre Bala and Aguila Solitaria
FG, Pierroth and Blue Panther vs Angel Azteca, Atlantis and Super Astro
FG, Fiera and Emilio Charles vs Hijo del Santo, Misterioso and Mascara Sagrada
FG, Emilio Charles and Blue Panther vs Misterioso, Volador and Blue Demon Jr.
FG, Jerry Estrada and Psicosis vs Mexicano, Villano III and Mascara Sagrada (if you ever wanted to see a match carried by Fuerza's personality, this is it)
FG, Juventud Guerrera and Misterioso vs Los Destructores (rudos vs rudos with Fuerza Guerrera trying to get babyface sympathy, believe it or not)