Blue Panther

[Timbo Slice]

Panther is the definition of a guy that is just enjoyable to watch regardless of the setting. He's so damn good on the mat and works smart way more often than he doesn't. He's been consistently great for quite some time. I think I can find room for him on my list even though I haven't watched as much of him as others have, but it's gonna be close.

[DylanZero]

Panther got way underrated in my opinion in the last go round, don't think there's been anything too special since 2016 and quite frankly the odds of anything too special in the next 5 years is low (depending on how excited you are about a Satánico singles match in 2021 which we are set to get soon) but he's one of the only guys in modern CMLL, letalone old guys to not phone it in on every 3rd match trios match and tries to make it stand out not just for him, but his sons and at times his opponents as well.

 

I rate him as a strong singles worker, with multiple matches of his making my top 50 of the year in years 1990-1995 & as high as #2 with him vs. Atlantis in 1991. Him vs. Santito were MOTYCs in the early 2000s. Had a MOTYC vs. Villano V (!?) In 2008. Lucha MOTYC vs. Averno as late as 2012. I think it's tough to beat him in terms of a fuller career, although criticism last go round was to him as a Rudo which I will concede that he wasn't the most bombastic personality in that role. That said if you put a gun to my head and had the ultimate random match generator and said "you must pick one wrestler and get something enjoyable out of this guy's career" then fuck if he wouldn't be one of my first picks. A vast majority of his matches I've seen, which is a lot, have been good or at least fun to this day. That to me is an all time great and I'll be voting him in or around my top 10 again, almost certain of it.

[Phil Schneider]

There is a bloodbath match against Santo from Monterrey, which exists on tape and Bihari is trying to get his hands on. Still pictures look gnarly as shit, so if we get that it will be another footage feather in his cap

 

[Matt D]

On a versatility level, I think he's underrated as a 90s stooging rudo jerk. We've got to see that side of him lately in some of the AAA matches that have popped up.

[elliott]

OMG I want that Santo bloodbath. 

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm a lot higher on Panther than I was last time around after watching all of his early 00s stuff. I have a specific expectation for the type of Blue Panther match I want to see (Panther vs. Atlantis, some of the Santo matches), but unfortunately you don't get to see those types of matches very often because of the way lucha is booked, and the reality that the style of wrestling I like was more prevalent prior to lucha making tape. Watching his early 00s stuff, I was able to enjoy him on talent alone even when he wasn't being featured very prominently. That's one thing that's tough to swallow about lucha. Chad alluded to it the other day with Casas. When guys aren't being used, or they've  had a main event run and are being dropped back down the card to make way for someone else, they get thrown into random trios matches and given little to do. Sometimes their talent shines through in random trios matches, or if you're lucky you get to see them working programs in other lucha territories, but it's a bugger when you see guys like Panther being under-utilized. 

One thing I do want to say about Panther as a candidate, and this is true for other candidates as well, is that I think he benefits from people pretty much only watching his most well known stuff. Now I could be wrong about that, but I have a feeling that not everyone sits through countless hours of meaningless lucha (which believe me, you shouldn't), but I think like it's easier for a candidate like Panther to stand out and criticisms to seem off base. Lucha candidates need a boost, but I think they should be held to the same standards as everyone else. 

Lastly, and this is a reach, if anybody has AWS Major Styles Clash lying around in a box somewhere, I have always hoped Panther vs. Dos Caras would magically appear on the internet some day. 

[Rah]

7 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

 

Lastly, and this is a reach, if anybody has AWS Major Styles Clash lying around in a box somewhere, I have always hoped Panther vs. Dos Caras would magically appear on the internet some day. 

Ask and ye shall receive

https://youtu.be/r06mbjJkpCo

[Jetlag]

3 hours ago, Rah said:

Ask and ye shall receive

https://youtu.be/r06mbjJkpCo

Great post! I had no idea that even happened. Did Dos Caras make TV in the 2000s here or there? He looked sharp.

[ohtani's jacket]

4 hours ago, Rah said:

Ask and ye shall receive

https://youtu.be/r06mbjJkpCo

A thousand thank yous. That was everything I hoped it would be. 

[Phil Schneider]

I vaguely remember an AWS Panther vs. Felino match from around the same time. Anyone have that?

[DylanZero]

6 hours ago, Rah said:

Ask and ye shall receive

https://youtu.be/r06mbjJkpCo

Man...I love this project for bringing this match into our sights. You rock, Rah.

[Rah]

Glad people enjoyed it. I've sent out an e-mail to the owner of AWS to source the other shows. 

I also came across this today. Looks cool - does anyone have it? Channel has highlights of a Dandy/Satanico hair match from 1988, too. Now that's something I'd pay good money for.
 

 

[ohtani's jacket]

Awesome. I haven't seen that clip in years. 

Felino vs. Panther used to be on the internet, but I guess it went poof. 

[elliott]

I rated Blue Panther 44th in 2016 and I fucking blew that one. Panther should be challenging for the top 20. I don't know that I've ever seen a bad Blue Panther match. Everyone knows hes a great technical wrestler, but hes great in brawls too. And trios. And hes got longevity. Hes become an underrated Santo opponent. Those matches are incredible. 

[KB8]

I had Panther at number 37 in 2016 and I'm actually okay with that, though I could just as easily see him hitting the top 30 next time. One thing I've done more of since the last poll - not for the purposes of the next GWE or anything - is watch way more random week-to-week type lucha, like your 14-minute inconsequential trios matches from a down year that nobody has written anything about. Doing that for 2000 you get to see things like Panther going absolutely crazy and brutalising Olimpico and guzzling his blood like a vampire, which isn't the sort of thing I really associated with rudo Panther before. I actually kind of agree with a couple of the points made about him not necessarily popping off the screen when he's the third guy in a trios unit, but I've seen enough Panther over a long enough period for me to be pretty content to watch him in just about any setting regardless. The Casas hair match from 2012 isn't a 1992 apuesta, so there's no blood and the brawling is different, but it might be the match of the decade and I couldn't have asked for much more out of a modern wagers match. He has great work over four decades, he's pretty undeniable. 

 

BLUE PANTHER YOU SHOULD WATCH:

v Atlantis (CMLL, 8/9/91)

w/Rencor Latino v Olimpico & Mr. Niebla (CMLL, 2/1/00)

v El Hijo del Santo (Monterrey, 4/9/00)

v Negro Casas (CMLL, 3/2/12)

v Villano V (CMLL, 9/19/08)

[cad]

I see I already posted in this thread. My feelings on Panther haven't changed much in five years, so this is gonna be a repeat, but I don't see him as an allaround worker. To me he was an outstanding technician (more through holds than through overall application of offense) who was great in matches that required that from him. He did brawl, bump, do some comedy, run the ropes, and do all the other stuff rudos do, but I don't know how well he really did those things on a consistent basis. For a guy with a feline name in a country where so many of the wrestlers move like cats, he wasn't very graceful on his feet. His brawling could look weak, and there was something about the way he carried himself as a rudo. It always seemed to me like acting, as opposed to naturals like Pierroth, Fuerza, or even my main man Satanico. A lot of his transitions were really lazy. Most of all what I don't like is his selling. He's not good at it. Look at this. I get that he's going for an over the top rudo sell there, but it's a delicate line between comical and farcical, and he straight up did a cannonball over to the latter side. Here, in a heated brawl, he sells a simple strike like a zap from the Mountie. I'm not trying to make this like a court case with exhibits A through C, but I don't want it to seem like I'm making this shit up either. I often get the impression that he knows what great rudos do and when they do it, but I end up not liking how he tries to do those things.

He finished 69th last time with a high vote of 7. A 7 vote is too high IMO, but I get it. Although I don't see him as one of the true all-timers, he did have a genuine gift on the mat, and he had an outstanding career, so I do think on the whole that he was a great worker. It's just that I can overlook a worker's flaws if they have enough excellent performances to make the knocks on them seem like small potatoes, like with Atlantis. With Panther, his flaws very often did limit how much I could enjoy his matches, and even with the long career he doesn't have an exhaustive list of great matches or performances for me personally.

Some Panther:
BP and Guerrero Negro vs Huracan Sevilla and Gran Hamada
BP, Fuerza Guerrera and Fishman vs Mariachi, Mexicano, and Charro de Jalisco
BP, Fuerza Guerrera and Jerry Estrada vs Super Astro, Volador and Transformer

[Rah]

@cad

How high were you on the Astro/Panther match? After going through your post, and Panther looking like the lucha HBK, I'd be interested to see how you found it. That was the real head-scratcher for me. It was poorly executed overselling with bad comedic elements to it. I think that's the match I have the biggest disconnect with anyone, frankly.

[Matt D]

@cad To me, the big deal with Panther, which has both pros and cons depending on how you look at it, is that he was built up a certain way by people who were there in the 90s and early 00s and he's actually a different wrestler than advertised: much, much broader, but maybe not quite as deep.

[cad]

18 hours ago, Rah said:

How high were you on the Astro/Panther match?

It's not a match where I can recall much about it. I remember thinking it was good but not great, but not one I'd make arguments about one way or the other. Haven't seen it in years.

I'm sure you've watched enough Panther to know that his selling wasn't like that 100% of the time. I don't think that was something he did well, and I needed to illustrate that in as few links as possible, so I chose ones that quickly made my point.

[GOTNW]

For me Blue Panther’s candidacy is eerily similar to Jerry Lawler’s. I’m often more impressed with his opponents in his big matches, but I can’t really argue with his resume. Like Lawler Panther also benefits from representing and excelling at a very particular style of wrestling (mat-flavoured title match “technical wrestling”). As far as variety goes, I don’t think he was a natural brawler, but when needed I do think he was great at escalating the violence in his matwork and taking a rougher, more violent approach reminiscent of someone like Masanobu Fuchi. I would also honestly say he wasn’t that great at the non-matwork, “workrate” part of technical-style bouts. That is why, if you want pure Blue Panther fanservice, I think you are actually much more likely to find it in his old man maestros bouts than you are in many of the matches during his athletic prime.

 

I am pretty alienated by the idea he is a serious top 20 candidate, unless you are either going to have a very Lucha-heavy or matwork-heavy top of the list. Even in this thread at least half of the posts amount to people expressing their disappointment with some of his most hyped bouts (out of which I don’t think there’s a single one I actually dislike or even consider average) or Panther in general. There are some good posts highlighting his strengths, but no one has really made a convincing case he should be seen as a truly elite top tier Lucha worker. Does anyone really think Panther is better as a complete worker than, say, Casas, Santito, Dandy or Satanico? Are Pantherheads dead set on mythologizing his bouts vs Atlantis the same way Sangre Chicana and Perro Aguayo enjoyers appraise their bloodbaths? Do Blue Panther advocators really get butterflies in their stomach for his sheer presence in a trios like I do for Emilio Charles Jr. or Pirata Morgan going berserk? Even in the genre of mat-based lucha title matches, I think Virus is a better worker than him. 

 

I’d say a more realistic evaluation of Blue Panther is that he is akin to a Lucha Taue - universally acclaimed and acknowledged, and while sometimes the beautiful aesthetics of llave or an Apron Chokeslam cloud one’s judgment and invoke hyperbole, when you look at his career more rationally, no one actually thinks he is the best. That is, unless you ignore match structure, selling, charisma and just intensively focus on wrestling ability. You can’t really argue with the beautiful neck bridges Blue Panther does in his 50s and 60s.

 

Still, there’s no shame in being a second/third tier candidate for a list of the greatest to ever do it. I am going to have Panther somewhere in the middle of my list and would absolutely recommend folks who aren’t familiar with Lucha matwork to check him out. It really is an incredibly cool aesthetic.

 

Recommended matches:

 

w/Sergio El Hermoso vs Solar & Super Astro (1987/8/22)

w/Negro Casas vs El Hijo Del Santo & Eddie Guerrero (1989/11/5)

w/Negro Casas & Fuerza Guerrera vs El Hijo Del Santo, Gran Hamada & Yoshihiro Asai (1990)

vs Gran Hamada (1990/11/13)

vs Panterita del Ring (1991)

vs Atlantis (1991/8/9)

vs Ultimo Dragon (1992/1/31)

vs Love Machine Art Barr (1992/4/3; mask vs mask; more of a standout angle than a notably great match) 

vs Angel Azteca (1992/9/4)

vs Super Astro (1992/10/9)

vs Love Machine Art Barr (1993/18/7; mask vs hair; similar deal as their previous bout)

w/Eddy Guerrero, La Parka & Psicosis vs El Hijo del Santo, Jushin Liger, Octagon & Tiger Mask III (1994/5/15)

vs El Mariachi (1994/10/30)

w/Psicosis & Fuerza Guerrera vs El Hijo del Santo, Octagon & Rey Misterio Jr. (1995/03/17)

w/Fuerza Guerrera, Pentagon & Psicosis vs. El Hijo del Santo, La Parka, Octagon & Rey Misterio Jr. (1995/6/18)

vs Atlantis (1997/12/5)

w/Black Warrior & Dr. Wagner Jr vs El Hijo Del Santo, Felino & Negro Casas(1998/12/11)

w/Dr. Wagner Jr. vs Negro Casas & El Hijo Del Santo(1999/9/17)

 

vs El Hijo Del Santo (2000/4/9)

vs El Hijo Del Santo (2000/5/28)

vs El Hijo Del Santo (2001/1/28)

w/Arkangel de la Muerte vs El Hijo del Santo & Mil Mascaras (2001/1/28)

vs Felino (2001/2/15)

w/Super Parka vs LA Park & Safari (2003/12/21)

w/Angel Azteca & Astuto vs Charles Lucero, Averno & Mephisto (2004/5/2)

vs Charles Lucero (2004/5/9)

vs Dos Caras (2004/9/25)

vs El Hijo Del Santo (2004/10/6)

vs Black Tiger [Silver King] (2004/11/16)

w/Atlantis vs Averno & Mephisto (2005/4/1)

vs Atlantis (2008/7/11)

vs Negro Casas (2008/8/3)

vs Villano V (2008/9/19, mask vs mask)

 

w/Negro Navarro vs El Satanico & El Solar (2011/3/5)

vs Negro Casas (2011/4/24)

vs Felino (2011/8/19)

w/ Atlantis & Solar vs Ultimo Guerrero, Felino & Negro Navarro (2012/1/14)

vs Negro Casas (2012/1/27)

vs Negro Casas (2012/3/2, hair vs hair)

w/ El Sagrado vs Rey Hechicero & Califan (2013/4/14)

vs Virus (2013/5/12)

vs Averno (2013/9/13, hair vs hair)

w/ El Solar & Super Astro vs. Black Terry, Negro Navarro & El Satanico (2013/11/17)

vs Averno (2013/12/22)

w/Black Panther & Cachorro vs Negro Casas, Puma & Tiger (2014/1/14)

vs Negro Casas (2014/1/21)

w/Black Panther & Cachorro vs Felino, Puma & Tiger (2014/3/24)

w/Negro Casas & Atlantis vs Black Terry, Negro Navarro & Solar (2014/8/16)

w/Ultimo Guerrero vs Solar & Black Terry (2014/11/15)

w/Delta vs Shigeo Okumura & Virus (2014/12/23

vs El Satanico (2015/7/25)

w/Negro Casas vs Black Terry & Solar (2016/2/28)

vs Hechicero (2018/3/3)

vs Virus (2019/3/23)

vs Bryan Danielson (2024/4/5)