John Cena

[W2BTD]

Cena has had way too many of forgettable WrestleMania matches, and a few flat out bad ones, to be consider the greatest big match worker in U.S. history. Does he have a top ten Mania match? I don't think he does. Top twenty. Maybe the HBK match? I couldn't even remember all of them, I had to look it up. A coupe of forgettable three ways, and some bad/mediocre stuff like Wyatt, Rock II, JBL, Miz.

[soup23]

Cena's Mania placement has been utterly bizarre at times and I love the guy.

 

2005: vs. JBL - Disappointing match and moment

2006: vs. HHH - This was an important match and a very good one

2007: vs. HBK - Great match in the mix of my favorite Cena run

2008: vs. Orton & HHH - I think this gets devalued slightly as in 2008, it was still rare for these three guys to be in the same ring at the same time. Orton vs. Cena feels entirely played out now but they only had their first signature title match at SummerSlam 2007. Still, this is clearly behind Flair vs. HBk for importance on this show and probably Edge vs. Taker as well.

2009: Vs. Big Show & Edge - Really disappointing throw away match here as there was complete potential to something special with Cena around this time either having one blow off match singles vs. Edge, a "dream" match vs. Jeff Hardy or building up someone new like Punk.

2010: vs. Batista - Nice match and #2 for the top ahead of Jericho vs. Edge IMO

2011: vs. Miz - Really bad performance from Cena, maybe his worst in a big match.

2012: vs. Rock - Huge drawing match and a good one

2013: vs. Rock - Huge drawing match and a bad one

2014: vs. Wyatt - This is where Cena takes a role working on the undercard as none of the main players in the promotion fit him. I enjoyed the match which I know you didn't Joe so I wouldn't count this one against Cena.

 

Typing all of that out, it is really not as bad as I thought going in as Cena was in the top match 4 out of 10 years and I would say in the top three nine out of ten with the exception being last years Mania (main event, Brock vs. Lesnar and HHH vs. Bryan all bigger). I think the biggest thing is that Cena doesn't have that ONE classic match from Mania on his resume, but even the match quality isn't terrible here as I would rank six out of these ten matches at *** or above. The best match is probably vs. HBK and that is hindered by them having the England match a few weeks later that was better.

 

Fantasy booking note but I still feel their was some big missed opportunities where Cena could have faced Batista for the first time at WM 26, faced Hardy at Wm 25, and faced Taker at WM 29. All of these options were available with minimal changes and I think it would have resulted in better results overall for Cena.

[El-P]

On 10/12/2014 at 1:20 AM, W2BTD said:

I am by no means a Cena hater. He's a nice little WWE style wrestler with a nice resume of really good matches, and few really great ones. What I find odd about this thread & the general love for Cena around here, is that Cena is bad at things that many who praise him on this site value strongly (bad punches & strikes, awful looking low impact offense), and does things that routinely get ripped when it comes to other wrestlers (finisher spamming, endless finisher kickouts, video game closing stretches, etc). It seems Cena gets a pass for this stuff from some people.

 

Bingo.

 

I've seen too many supposedly "great" Cena match that were in the range of "good-very good" and way too many ones that were self-conscious über-rehearsed WWE Epics^™ that were actively annoying so I just can't take him seriously as a great worker at all. He's been the perfect big match worker for modern WWE style, and that's coming from someone who hates the modern big match WWE style. He's been an absolutely unbearable character for his entire career and the one thing I really enjoyed about him was his way to troll his haters. All in all, year, pretty good worker with his ups and downs, capable to have some quite excellent match and also quite horrible ones. He's really not someone I would want to revisit for this poll. (actually, I do now)

[JerryvonKramer]

Well, it depends on one's definition of a "big match."

I do get your point. And we're dealing with different eras -- i.e. Cena in one where there's a monthly PPV and the NWA guys in an era with a travelling champ, sometimes going to rinky-dink local venues.

 

But, like you say, it depends on how you define "big match". Since you had the bigger towns that ran a monthly "big show" loop like MSG in New York, Spectrum in Philly, Omni in Atlanta, Greensboro in the Carolinas, Kiel in St. Louis, Houston, etc. etc. you COULD argue that every 10,000+ gate Omni show or every 20,000+ MSG card is sort of like your equivalent of a modern-day non-big-four PPV.

 

If you do argue that, then all your Savage MSG and Spectrum shows plus SNME etc. "count". And all of your Flair defenses at the big arena shows do.

 

If you don't, then guys from the 70s and 80s can't really compete with Cena because of the number of PPVs.

 

But regardless of any of that, I think "big match worker" is a cop-out BS phrase that is short-hand for "modern WWE main-event style". I'm not picking on you here, I'm talking to everyone. "Big match worker", WTF is that? You're almost certainly not talking about Harley Race wrestling 60-minute broadways, you're talking about endless false-finish matches at Wrestlemania, invented by Vince for the WWF/E audience. So the first "big match" in wrestling history is something like Hogan vs. Warrior, other "big matches" include all the HBK crap from the 00s that WWE fans love so much, and anything else that makes the typical WWE history highlight reel. Tell me I'm wrong and why.

 

I don't have a particular axe to grind here, I just want to know what people mean by "big match worker". If it's what I said, then how much is it an achievement for Cena to be the best one? What's it really saying about him?

 

I say this as someone not particularly looking forward to spending 20+ hours of my time watching his matches for this project. Every guy is going to have to justify time at this point. Why should Cena have my time?

[W2BTD]

I think a "big match" in modern WWE would be an important main event on an important show. Maybe the rare semi main event too on a loaded show. Certainly any Mania man event. Summer Slam.

 

I don't think every PPV main event in this era would qualify as a "big match", because they clearly run some non important big picture stuff out there on your common B-shows.

[tim]

I think when people talk about Cena as a great big match worker they're talking about a STYLE of match rather than the match's importance in terms of booking, year presentation, etc. They mean a long WWE style main event.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Surely a big match is just a match where the stakes feel high, whether that be manufactured by the booking, or by the skill of the wrestlers involved. I don't think it has to be a match held in front of a large crowd, though it's probably more likely to get that 'big match feel' with a big crowd.

[Exposer]

I think when people talk about Cena as a great big match worker they're talking about a STYLE of match rather than the match's importance in terms of booking, year presentation, etc. They mean a long WWE style main event.

I suppose this is what I mean when referencing Cena as a "big match" worker, but I don't believe every one of his "big" matches falls into the WWE main event style. I probably should have prefaced this earlier, but the context of a match is what really makes it "big" for me. The build to it. Cena-Umaga and Cena-Khali aren't worked in the traditional WWE main event style. The first is an LMS match, the other has Khali in it who can't work a match with ten near falls. Both had excellent builds making them "big" matches and title defenses in my opinion. Another example of a Cena "big" match not being worked in the WWE Main Event style is the Lesnar match from 2012. That's far from it. Really, both the Lesnar matches from this year are too. The Punk matches are worked that way, but I think they're probably the greatest matches worked in the modern style. Ultimately, it's the context of a match that makes it "big" for me.

 

Also, I hate Cena-Rock II, the Miz feud, half of the Orton matches, and most of the Nexus feud so I'm not without my criticisms of the WWE main event style or Cena.

[Loss]

This may sound ridiculous on the surface, but setting aside the stylistic differences, I think a side-by-side comparison of John Cena and Atsushi Onita as big match workers would be very interesting.

[Matt D]

"Big match feel" is probably the single least important metric in wrestling to me. I do think that sometimes Cena is a wrestler who believes that the best creative choices to make for the moment and the crowd aren't necessarily the ones that'd lead to the best match.

[ohtani's jacket]

Jimmy, if you can put together a select list of Cena matches in different working situations I will make the time to watch them. Cheers.

[Jimmy Redman]

I apologise in advance for probably going well over budget by the end of this post, but I will at least try to go for breadth instead of depth.

 

While my instinct is to recommend better matches (mainly because I don't want to be responsible for anyone sitting through shitty wrestling, life is too short), since you want the full picture, I tried to give a variety of performances and matches ranging from great to decent to problematic. Also tried not to repeat opponents, again for the purposes of variety, and I tried to come up with as many categories as possible.

 

If you only watch one match from each category, I recommend those in bold.

 

MIDCARD HEEL CENA

 

Cena vs Brock Lesnar - Backlash 2003 (first world title shot) (link)

Cena vs Undertaker - Vengeance 2003 (link)

Cena vs Eddie Guerrero (Parking Lot Brawl) - Smackdown 11th September 2003 (link)

Cena vs Rey Mysterio - Smackdown 6th November 2003 (link)

 

MIDCARD FACE CENA

 

Cena vs Rhyno (No DQ) - Smackdown 15th January 2004 (link)

Cena vs Rene Dupree - Judgment Day 2004

Cena vs Booker T (Match 2 of Best of 5) - Smackdown 26th August 2004 (link)

Cena vs Carlito - Smackdown 7th October 2004 (link)

 

LONG, WORKRATE-Y MAIN EVENTS

 

Cena vs Chris Jericho - Summerslam 2005 (link)
Cena vs Shawn Michaels - Raw 23rd April 2007 (link)

Cena vs CM Punk - Summerslam 2011 (link)
Cena vs Dolph Ziggler - Raw 7th January 2013 (link)

SELLING FOR MONSTERS

Cena vs Umaga - New Year's Revolution 2007
Cena vs Great Khali - Judgment Day 2007
Cena vs Big Show (Cage Match) - No Way Out 2012 (link)

VIDEO GAME-Y BOMB THROWING

Cena vs CM Punk - Raw 25th February 2013 (link)
Cena vs The Rock - Wrestlemania 29 (link)
Cena vs Daniel Bryan - Summerslam 2013

 

MORE TRADITIONAL FACE/HEEL DYNAMIC

 

Cena vs Randy Orton - Summerslam 2007

Cena vs Batista - Wrestlemania 26 (link)

Cena vs Wade Barrett - Hell in a Cell 2010

OVERDRAMATIC SPORTZ ENTERTAINMENT STORYTELLING

Cena vs Randy Orton (I Quit) - Breaking Point 2009 (link)

Cena vs The Miz (I Quit) - Over the Limit 2011
Cena vs Bray Wyatt - Wrestlemania 30 (link)

 

SELLING BODY PARTS

Cena vs Shawn Michaels - Wrestlemania 23 (link)
Cena, Bryan & Kane vs The Shield - Raw 29th April 2013 (link)
Cena vs Damien Sandow - Raw 28th October 2013 (link)

 

BRAWLS AND BLOODBATHS

 

Cena vs JBL (I Quit) - Judgment Day 2005 (link)

Cena vs Umaga (Last Man Standing) - Royal Rumble 2007 (link)

Cena vs Edge (Last Man Standing) - Backlash 2009 (link)

Cena vs Brock Lesnar - Extreme Rules 2012 (link)

 

ACE VS MIDCARDER

 

Cena vs Johnny Nitro - ECW 26th June 2006

Cena vs The Miz - The Bash 2009

Cena vs Justin Gabriel - Raw 6th September 2010 (link)

Cena vs Seth Rollins - Smackdown 27th December 2013 (link) (just remembered this)

 

ANTI-CENA CROWDS

 

Cena vs Triple H - Wrestlemania 22 (link)

Cena vs RVD - ECW One Night Stand 2006 (link)

Cena vs Edge (TLC) - Unforgiven 2006 (link)

Cena vs CM Punk - Money in the Bank 2011 (link)

 

FACE VS FACE CLASHES

 

Cena vs Lashley - Great American Bash 2007

Cena vs Batista - Summerslam 2008

Cena vs The Rock - Wrestlemania 28 (link)

 

TAG TEAM MATCHES

 

Cena & Michaels vs Rated RKO - Raw 28th January 2007 (link)

Cena & Bourne vs Edge & Sheamus - Raw 31st May 2010

Cena & Rhodes Bros vs Cesaro, Swagger & Sandow - Raw 4th November 2013

VS NON-WRESTLERS

 

Cena vs Vince McMahon - Raw 27th March 2006 (link)

Cena vs Kevin Federline - Raw 1st January 2007 (link)

Cena vs John Laurinaitis - Over the Limit 2012

[W2BTD]

I will never stop being impressed with the way some of you can rattle off WWE matches like this. I wouldn't remember most of these even existed until I clicked play, and then I probably wouldn't remember half of them even at that point. For whatever reason WWE matches bleed into each other in my brain. Maybe it;s because the shows have all looked identical for the last decade +. Same set, same ramp, same graphics, same ring, same announcers. Idk. The level of recall you guys have just amazes me.

[Exposer]

Outstanding list Jimmy. I think this will help a lot of us look back on or catch up with Cena. Great work and thanks for putting in the effort.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'll go through the boldfaced selections at first and try to do one per day.

 

Cena vs Rey Mysterio - Smackdown 6th November 2003

 

This was all right. A good, basic sort of match, though nothing really memorable past the week it aired. Cena's promo to start with sucked, but I thought he displayed good intensity after the bell and stood out fairly well for a midcard act. He was a bit too anxious about getting into position and watching him call spots was off putting, but I liked his aggressiveness. It was too short to be much of a bout and not really structured that well other than to give Cena a cheap win, however a decent start to this project.

 

I'd go about **

[JerryvonKramer]

Is it true that Cena doesn't sell?

[W2BTD]

Is it true that Cena doesn't sell?

That would be pretty low on my list of Cena critiques, although his closing stretches are very ROH like with finisher spamming/near falls so from that perspective I could see some people maybe thinking that. That stuff doesn't bother me, I think in most cases it's exciting.

 

His glaring weaknesses are really bad strikes (even noticeable to someone like me who generally doesn't care about that, but his ugly punches are legendary), and weak looking offense (gently lays his opponent down on his Attitude Adjustment fireman's carry, his STF shows a ton of light to the point other wrestlers rib him publicly for it).

 

I think overall selling is one of his strengths. He takes a convincing beating IMO.

[Jimmy Redman]

Is it true that Cena doesn't sell?

Not in the least.

 

The attempted comparison to Backlund to scare you off doesn't hold up, because your problem with Bob seems to be thst he doesn't really sell much at all or give his opponents much. Cena isn't like that whatsoever. He sells and gives a lot, and then makes a big comeback. The selling issue is essentially what you think of those comebacks. He's far more Bruno/Hogan/Sting than Bob.

[JerryvonKramer]

Alright cool, it hasn't really jumped out at me when I've seen Cena before, so maybe Big Bad Mick can explain what he means exactly?

 

My problem with Backlund is that he never shows any vulnerability. He's probably my number 1 example of a guy who bumps big without ever really selling. I also think that he's the closest thing we get to in wrestling to wrestler-as-superman. Only without the kryptonite. He doesn't really make comebacks because the heel never gets any proper time on top.

[Chess Knight]

Is it true that Cena doesn't sell?

 

It's not that he doesn't sell, it's that he stops selling to hit his shoulder block > shoulder block > shoulder block > duck clothesline > five knuckle shuffle, which may be the most tiresome set of signature spots I frequently see. The SuperCena talk is exaggeration, but I have seen him ignore selling that he was doing pre-shoulder block/FKS, even if the selling was really friggin great.

 

Call me crazy but I think one of my problems with Cena is that he actually sometimes sells too much. He's dead on the floor, tired, and struggling to get up and I'm sitting there there like "dude, he stomped you twice". The fact I see him do that makes the shoulder block burst even more 'sigh-worthy'.

[Exposer]

I will say that Cena's best selling is when he's up against monsters. The Umaga matches, the Show matches, the Lesnar matches, the Khali matches, etc. He's been guilty of spotty selling several times including the Punk match from RAW last year.

[Childs]

Alright cool, it hasn't really jumped out at me when I've seen Cena before, so maybe Big Bad Mick can explain what he means exactly?

 

My problem with Backlund is that he never shows any vulnerability. He's probably my number 1 example of a guy who bumps big without ever really selling. I also think that he's the closest thing we get to in wrestling to wrestler-as-superman. Only without the kryptonite. He doesn't really make comebacks because the heel never gets any proper time on top.

 

Well, two months ago, Cena ate the most one-sided ass kicking ever delivered to a WWF/WWE ace, so I wouldn't say he's unwilling to show vulnerability.

[NintendoLogic]

The issue isn't really Cena's selling during the match. It's in the days afterward. When he suffers a big loss, he usually shows up on Raw the next night and laughs it off. I guess the idea is to keep him from coming across as a sore loser, but it's hard enough to get people to care about wins and losses without one of the few guys who's protected in that regard treating losing like it's no big deal. That's outside the scope of his working ability, but I think it's an example of how the insufferability of his character often overshadows his merits as a worker.

[W2BTD]

The issue isn't really Cena's selling during the match. It's in the days afterward. When he suffers a big loss, he usually shows up on Raw the next night and laughs it off. I guess the idea is to keep him from coming across as a sore loser, but it's hard enough to get people to care about wins and losses without one of the few guys who's protected in that regard treating losing like it's no big deal. That's outside the scope of his working ability, but I think it's an example of how the insufferability of his character often overshadows his merits as a worker.

 

It recently came to light (through Batista for sure, and I believe Daniel Bryan in media interviews) that WWE wrestlers are told to not sell injuries from PPV the next day at TV, because the fans at the next show don't care about what happened at the previous one.

 

That reminds me of something one of the ex-creative team members brought up in an interview a few years ago. He said during a creative meeting when he was new to the company, he brought up a continuity issue, and was shot down immediately by Vince who told him "I can't remember what happened on the show two weeks ago, do you think the viewers do?"

[ohtani's jacket]

Cena vs Rene Dupree - Judgment Day 2004

 

This is the first time I've seen Rene Dupree. I have no idea how good or bad he was usually. Having seen many of the great French heels, he didn't impress in that regard, though I did like his flick of the torso (very Rick Rude/Martel-ish.) Cena's promo was slightly less cringe worthy than the last one, but still a different world from what I like. The match wasn't bad for a midcard level bout. It was highly choreographed and a bit telegraphed at times, but that's what happens when you're working to a script I suppose. As someone else mentioned, I also find it strange how the WWE can look so much like other styles of modern wrestling that are criticised and lambasted yet is somehow championed. The finishing stretches are counterrific the same way that modern New Japan matches are, although in this case there weren't any exciting nearfalls. What's more, I don't think you can argue that the body of the match played any part in the outcome. The bear hug spot was badly worked. Cena didn't time his comeback at all well and they dropped it to head into stretch run and from there it was just button mashing on the controller. It's only 2004 I'm looking at, but I don't see a lot of natural talent from Cena and I don't really see (at this stage) a guy who exhibits the confidence or control that a great worker shows. He's a hard working dude trying his best to stick to the plan. But like I said, Dupree could have been absolutely terrible outside of this and I wouldn't really know. I'd go about ***