Atlantis

[concrete1992]

I don't love Atlantis but I like Atlantis. He doesn't come across half as dynamic on the mat as cats like Satanico, Santo, or Panther but he has a certain aura about him. I'm going to piggy back off my methodology on Psicosis and say Atlantis may be one of the best big match workers I've seen. The classic of him vs. Villano III is the obvious one but an era where you can't really bring blood to the wager match table, Atlantis has dished out two great matches in as many years on the biggest stage in CMLL. I don't know 100% if I'll rank him but I'm certainly not closing the book on Atlantis even if he isn't one of my absolute favorite luchadores.

[Childs]

I found the Sombra mask match really flat for most of its duration. Sure you're going to have emotion when a big star loses his mask. And the last few minutes at least mostly lived up to the moment. But I didn't feel much intensity from the work in the first 2 1/2 falls. I guess I just struggle with the lack of grit in the modern mask matches.

[Parties]

Does anyone have a 5-10 match list of the must-see Atlantis performances? His career is so massive at this point that I often feel like I don't know what to focus on with him. I've seen the mask matches with V3 (classic) and UG (less great but still excellent), but the rest of what i know about him was from when I was watching week-to-week CMLL back in '08-'10. He's a weird blind spot in my viewing, in that when I watch present day performances from him I always think that he's solid, but that I'm clearly watching a guy at the end of his career and that I'm not getting the full picture.

 

If you were making an Atlantis comp, what's on it?

[GOTNW]

Blue Panther matches from 91 and 97 are must sees. I'd also recommend the La Sombra match from the last Anniversaio which I thought was similar to the UG match but better in pretty much every way. I also really, really love this match I've seen no one else talk about:

Basically Atlantis just punches the shit out of Perrito the entire match.

[Parties]

Atlantis-Perrito ’06 was good. Kind of a much better version of the two Taker-Michaels matches from Mania. Veteran doing way-back punches and then high-fiving the crowd felt different from recent lucha I’ve seen in a fun way. It’s also a drag watching this and knowing Perrito never worked WWE. Him against ’07 Cena could have been incredible. Atlantis’ shirt-ripping was a fun inversion of mask ripping, and I really liked the big tease-counter of Atlantida.

Atlantis-Sombra was okay. First fall was too Americanized for my taste, but the times are a-changin’. Second fall is way too short, but that too is sort of common in present lucha: rush through two falls to get to the third. The post-match festivities were tremendous and I really thought Sombra brought it in the third fall in a go-for-broke Loser Leaves Town performance.

Atlantis vs. Kung Fu (Mask vs. Mask, 10/26/90) was slow at times but had a lot of great frantic brawling. Worked the way you’d expect a mask match to be worked as a shoot, in that both guys seemed to drop all auspice of civility and start trying to gouge eyes and crack each others skulls against the ring posts. Atlantis goes for some dirtbag pins in this, and it ends rather abruptly, but good stuff all told. Trio Fantasticos have looked really good whenever I’ve seen them.

Atlantis vs. Mano Negra (Mask vs. Mask, 10/1/93): This kinda sucked, actually. Negra was uncoordinated to the point of being almost uncooperative. He suffers from "Ox Baker stance". Atlantis hits awesome backbreakers that save this from being dull as dishwater. Negra improves as things progress, but the falls here are way too short and uneventful. Even the deceptive rudo kick in the balls is lackluster.

Atlantis vs. Silver Fox (Mask vs. Mask, 6/18/00): Fun scuzzy Arena Coliseo brawl, and the best of these five matches that I watched. Crowd behind fence, the workers brawling into the crowd, Atlantis bleeding within the first couple minutes. I don’t know much about Silver Fox, but this felt like when one of the more dirtbag undercarders in NOAH would get to work a title or anniversary match with Misawa. Or Bret vs. Jean-Pierre Lafitte. The Ace vs. guy who’s beneath him but has been built up as a one-night tomato can contender. Fox takes a brilliant back body drop bump to the floor here. There’s also an awesome riotous brawl that breaks out through the stands between both guys’ groups of cornermen. The atmosphere is what makes this match. Silver Fox alternates between seeming gassed and then suddenly hitting these beautiful pins. Third fall’s kind of a spot-fest and this ends abruptly in much the same way other Atlantis matches seem to, but this was good stuff.

[DR Ackermann]

I might be the only one, but I don't really like his hyped apuestas matches. The Ultimo Guerrero and Villano 3 matches in particular did nothing for me. I thought structure wise they were too your turn, my turn and they just kept going and going.

[Parties]

Atlantis vs. Blue Panther (8/9/91): This was great, but Panther is the story here. Great bridges and matwork in the first fall. I actually liked the brevity of the second fall here as it’s played in a way where Panther almost can’t believe he’s won and Pierroth is going crazy in the corner. Worked intelligently throughout as Panther is this thorn in Atlantis’ side hitting counters. Absolutely tremendous third fall with great trading of submissions and counters. Best match I’ve seen in a while.

Atlantis vs. Blue Panther (12/5/97): This had less heat and felt more like a series of spots. Still really well executed, but almost more of a maestros match. Almost everything - even armbars and whatnot - felt like a potential finisher. On one hand that’s really impressive as it shows the intensity they were bringing. But it also made it seem less well-paced than the ’91 match in building to big moments. Good stuff, but this was starting to feel like Atlantis overload.

Atlantis vs. La Fiera (4/3/92): Goddamn do I love Fiera’s gimmick here of Rapidly Aging Leopard-Scarved Fonzie accompanied by two busted airline stewardess valets. This was one of the more impressive Atlantis performances as he hits some really impressive dives off the top and seems to be guiding the match. Fiera initially looks like he’s suffering from Jerry Estrada Syndrome, but he soon gets some awesome air on his bumps to the floor and off a monkey flip. Some really good selling from Atlantis as a Fiera plancha looks to have dislocated his shoulder, which then gets worked over the rest of the match. Loved Pierroth pulling a limp Fiera (post back body drop) out of the ring to avoid a pin.

Atlantis vs. Satanico (1984): Wow, this was great. Need to switch my focus to 80s Atlantis, as this was the agile young technico people talk about, and he was fantastic at taking a beating and springing off the ropes. Had genuine sympathy with me for the way he was getting clubbered. Satanico was a complete maniac in this era. Vicious bloody brawl that improves Atlantis’ stature from his early days, and certifies Satanico as a legit top 10 contender.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't like Atlantis' selling in his early days ,but you should check out the El Faraon match from '85 if you liked that Satanico bout.

[Jimmy Redman]

As far as luchadors go I am big on Atlantis. He is just sooooo pretty. It's one of those occasions when pure mechanical talent matters a great deal to me, because his high flying and smoothness in the ring is amazing, I could watch him fly through the air for days. He's everything I want out of a masked tecnico.

 

There are a lot of singles matches I like already - vs Panther, vs Villano III, vs Emilio, vs Fiera, vs Satanico, vs Perrito. I like the goofier higher flying 80s Atlantis, I like the more rounded early 90s Atlantis, and I like old man Atlantis. I should really check out the recent singles matches people are talking about. And I love seeing his name on basically any trios match, because again, there's always a point where he flies majestically through the air and runs rings around the rudos, and he's just so God damn pretty.

 

He'll surely rank and will be one of my highest ranked luchadors.

[Matt D]

Have you seen much rudo Atlantis yet?

[Jimmy Redman]

No!

 

What should I watch?

[Matt D]

Good question. I watched a bunch early into my lucha watching, so my opinions are spurious at best.

 

I liked this when I saw it a month or two ago:

 

This might be the best single match to watch?

 

A lot of the other 2006 stuff went down, unfortunately. There are a lot of fun trios with the Ultimo Guerrero, Atlantis, Rey Bucanero, Olimpico, Toscano/Tarzan Boy stable up against Mistico, Dr. Wagner, Jr., and Friends, like this, which will at least give you a sense of the spirit of things:

 

[elliott]

I ranked Atlantis 46th in 2016 and I feel good about that. Its a little lower than I anticipate having him this time around. I view him as a top 20-40 guy. All time babyface performer. Everyone knows about the top tier matches and how far apart they are. I always liked him in random trios matches as an over babyface who can come in and nail his spots. He's not Hijo del Santo (well no one is) but I feel like whenever I saw his name on a trios, I could at worst count on him to come on and nail his highspots. Maybe that isn't the case but its something I'll keep an eye on this time around because like I said we all know the top tier stuff.

[KB8]

I had Atlantis at 85 in 2016, and while I won't have him as high as elliot in 2026 I also feel like I shafted him last time. Outside of El Hijo del Santo he feels like maybe THE classic masked tecnico to me. It's been said in here already, but he was an excellent trios worker...the only problem is that I can't actually think of a trios match he was involved in that hops off the page. To be honest, that's something I could say about a lot of luchadores, but of the candidates from Mexico I'd put ahead of him they almost all have at least one trios that I could point to. Still, that's not a massive criticism because his consistency there basically makes up for it. Early Atlantis was really hammy and some of the selling could be sort of comical, but the Satanico match is great, and even if Satanico was unbelievable at that point in time there's something to be said for knowing how to be led to greatness (prolly). I thought both of the Panther singles matches were great the last time I saw them, so he has the bloody brawls, the technical showcases and of course the high-stakes apuestas. I'm not even as huge on the Villano III match as most, but it's a hell of a thing and one of the greatest complete packages in wrestling history. 

 

ATLANTIS YOU SHOULD WATCH:

v Satanico (EMLL, 1/20/84)

v Blue Panther (CMLL, 8/9/91)

v Blue Panther (CMLL, 12/5/97)

v Villano III (CMLL, 3/17/00)

v Ultimo Guerrero (CMLL, 9/19/14)

[Boss Rock]

Atlantis is someone I've always liked because his big matches are great, but there are also a ton of gaps outside those matches I need to fill.

[cad]

I always thought that my first post on the board was a defense of Atlantis in this thread, but I guess not. Maybe I dreamed the whole thing up. On one hand I'm more sympathetic to criticism of him now than I was five years ago. He's not the type to elevate a lesser worker (Atlantis vs Black Warrior comes to mind), and he doesn't often have the look of a truly masterful and natural performer, not in the way that someone like Negro Casas leaps off the screen. But when viewed within the context of his whole career, the breadth of his accomplishments swallows stuff like that right up. You could place his first great match in 1984 and his latest at some point in the last decade. There are wrestlers who ranked in the top fifty whose careers began and ended during that span. He has enough great matches and enough big matches to his name that it's hard to imagine he was just a passenger that whole time. Actually that 1984 match with Satanico is the only time I thought he legitimately needed to be carried. It's a bit like how you'll sometimes see Youtube comments saying Atlantis was protected and "inflado," which is essentially them saying that his stature is the result of his push. He has the masks of Villano III, Ultimo Guerrero, Mano Negra, Kung Fu, Sombra and Talisman. When a wrestler reaches living legend status, how they got there hardly matters.

He finished #74 last time, with a high vote of #6. At that time he had main evented back to back anniversary shows with well received matches, so he was on people's minds at the time and might not do as well this time. On the other hand he was in between Chris Jericho and Hulk Hogan, so he could easily do better this time around too. #6 feels a little high to me (that high on the list, the fact that he wasn't really a fantastic actor or natural seller does matter), but he has the matches to rank there.

Some Atlantis performances to watch:
Atlantis, Angel Azteca and Ringo Mendoza vs Pirata Morgan, Hombre Bala and Verdugo (flyer Atlantis)
Atlantis, Rayo Jr. and Vampiro vs Ulises, Emilio Charles and Satanico (brawling Atlantis)
Atlantis vs Dr. Wagner Jr. (Atlantis in a one on one brawl)
Atlantis, Angel Azteca and Blue Demon Jr. vs Dandy, Texano and Super Muñeco (technical Atlantis)
Atlantis vs Emilio Charles Jr. (title match Atlantis)
Atlantis, Dandy and Ultimo Dragon vs Satanico, MS-1 and Pirata Morgan (Atlantis in a supporting role)
Atlantis, Angel Azteca and Astro de Oro vs Espectro de Ultratumba, Espectro Jr. and Gran Markus Jr. (just a match I really like)

Ranking the A luchadores:

Spoiler

Atlantis
Angel Azteca
Arkangel de la Muerte

Fairly straightforward. I could see someone preferring Arkangel's longevity to Angel Azteca's shorter peak, but AA packed a lot into that peak. I doubt Arkangel has a longer list of memorable matches, even with all the extra time. I didn't rate Art Barr, as his time in Mexico represents less than half of his career. He'd have finished fourth though.

 

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm happy anytime I see him in a trios match. We all know that the rudos are the most entertaining part of a trios match, but you need at least one decent tecnico for the match to be worthwhile. Atlantis is a guy you can rely on to hold up the tecnicos' end of the match. I agree that he's not the smoothest or most polished of workers. His timing is often excellent. He hits the ring in rhythm and delivers high impact spots like an arm drag or his backbreaker, but he's not as fluid a worker as El Hijo del Santo. He's not alone in that respect. You could make the same argument about Lizmark, and I am higher on Lizmark than most. Where Atlantis shines is in that eternal babyface role. It's a hard role to nail down, and it takes something special to be recognized as an outstanding babyface. Having just watched Casas amble through his 95 tecnico run, I can safely say that working tecnico is no walk in the park. It takes talent to get noticed. Just like it takes talent to act out as a rudo. I didn't know that Atlantis has a reputation among Mexican fans for being overrated or protected. I can see how that's possible. For all, I know his crappiness on the mic and the fact that he's pushed as the idol of the children may be a turn off for hardcore fans. He has some clear weaknesses in his resume as far as early apuesta feuds go, but he may have made up for that with his spectacles later on. I can imagine putting voting Sangre Chicana and Perro Aguayo ahead of Atlantis, and I'm not sure how fair that is. I guess the issue is that he probably wouldn't make a lot of people's top 10 luchadores list of all-time, which means he'll be lost in the shuffle once people figure in wrestlers from other parts of the world. 

[Ma Stump Puller]

Atlantis is someone where even my VERY limited exposure to lucha had me impressed by him back when he got a legitimately fantastic match out of Kendo Kashin around about 2000 or so. Even through Kashin isn't the pits, that's a pretty big thing to have on your resume. I'll need to check out his stuff eventually.

 

 

[GOTNW]

I was recently on an Atlantis kick that came out of the blue. I was going through my list of classics (or five stars, if you will), looking at it like a mess, thinking what I'm gonna need to add/remove/reevaluate, and I saw I had a  Atlantis vs Kung Fu Apuestas on the list. And I said, you know what, this sounds pretty insane, what was going through my mind back then? I remember little outside of it being a hateful brawl. Almost ten years have passed, I have to watch this.

And you know what, while I don't consider it a classic anymore, I do think it's a great match, and it's certainly a five star Atlantis performance. And it got me thinking, if he can drag a great brawl out of Kung Fu, it's highly unlikely he's never worked more in this style. There has to be more of this and that's what I need to look into. Whenever anyone talks about Atlantis, it's all about him being a legendary tecnico flying wrestler, and then somewhere in there it's mentioned "oh yeah he can brawl too".

I know how I feel about Atlantis in the classic tecnico role. He rules. He's a wrestler where you almost need to point to his execution. There's a beauty in his technique which just isn't matched. Seth Rollins and El Hijo del Santo both do Suicide Dives, but it might as well not be the same move. Atlantis' Armdrags and Monkey Flips amaze with their fluidity. His Dropkick looks like a Russian cruise missile exploding in a collision. But I want to see Atlantis punch people in the face, rip their masks, slam their heads onto the apron and snapmare them before unmasking them himself.

So I went through the match recommendations in this thread, and there's some good stuff. I really liked the Silver King match and the series of matches he had with Dr. Wagner Jr. around 2001-2002. That's where you get a mix, some classic Atlantic tecnico and some vicious brawling. But what stood out to me the most, and what seems glaringly missing in this thread as a case making point, is his mid 2000s rudo run. It's been mentioned, but mentioning it doesn't do it justice. This is the time of Misticomania, CMLL feels like the hottest promotion in the world, and Atlantis is right there in the midst of the craziness as a top rudo. And he heavily modifies his move-set, busting out a bunch of brutal offence, all of these Gordbusters and Flapjacks. There's a singles match with Mistico from 2005 which I really liked where he hit him with a damn Slingshot Brainbuster! Why is Atlantis suddenly turning into Tatsuhito Takaiwa? Fine with me, I don't mind. But yeah, watching a lot of this stuff, I don't really see anyone outside of Casas and Santo as luchadors who need to rank above him. Atlantis rules. I wish we had a resident 2000s CMLL expert who could go "here are the 15 best tags with rudo Atlantis from this time" on the spot. But if you just YT "Atlantis 2005/6" like I did you'll be fine the stuff is really good.

[club]

11 hours ago, GOTNW said:

I was recently on an Atlantis kick that came out of the blue. I was going through my list of classics (or five stars, if you will), looking at it like a mess, thinking what I'm gonna need to add/remove/reevaluate, and I saw I had a  Atlantis vs Kung Fu Apuestas on the list. And I said, you know what, this sounds pretty insane, what was going through my mind back then? I remember little outside of it being a hateful brawl. Almost ten years have passed, I have to watch this.

And you know what, while I don't consider it a classic anymore, I do think it's a great match, and it's certainly a five star Atlantis performance. And it got me thinking, if he can drag a great brawl out of Kung Fu, it's highly unlikely he's never worked more in this style. There has to be more of this and that's what I need to look into. Whenever anyone talks about Atlantis, it's all about him being a legendary tecnico flying wrestler, and then somewhere in there it's mentioned "oh yeah he can brawl too".

I know how I feel about Atlantis in the classic tecnico role. He rules. He's a wrestler where you almost need to point to his execution. There's a beauty in his technique which just isn't matched. Seth Rollins and El Hijo del Santo both do Suicide Dives, but it might as well not be the same move. Atlantis' Armdrags and Monkey Flips amaze with their fluidity. His Dropkick looks like a Russian cruise missile exploding in a collision. But I want to see Atlantis punch people in the face, rip their masks, slam their heads onto the apron and snapmare them before unmasking them himself.

So I went through the match recommendations in this thread, and there's some good stuff. I really liked the Silver King match and the series of matches he had with Dr. Wagner Jr. around 2001-2002. That's where you get a mix, some classic Atlantic tecnico and some vicious brawling. But what stood out to me the most, and what seems glaringly missing in this thread as a case making point, is his mid 2000s rudo run. It's been mentioned, but mentioning it doesn't do it justice. This is the time of Misticomania, CMLL feels like the hottest promotion in the world, and Atlantis is right there in the midst of the craziness as a top rudo. And he heavily modifies his move-set, busting out a bunch of brutal offence, all of these Gordbusters and Flapjacks. There's a singles match with Mistico from 2005 which I really liked where he hit him with a damn Slingshot Brainbuster! Why is Atlantis suddenly turning into Tatsuhito Takaiwa? Fine with me, I don't mind. But yeah, watching a lot of this stuff, I don't really see anyone outside of Casas and Santo as luchadors who need to rank above him. Atlantis rules. I wish we had a resident 2000s CMLL expert who could go "here are the 15 best tags with rudo Atlantis from this time" on the spot. But if you just YT "Atlantis 2005/6" like I did you'll be fine the stuff is really good.

I too have recently been on an Atlantis kick. There's a tremendous rudo Atlantis performance in this trios match on this episode of CMLL TV. Starts around the 49 min mark: