Haku/Meng

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[Grimmas]

I really want to find a way to get Haku onto my list. The Islanders stuff rules and I enjoy the Meng run a lot. I'll need to re-watch some stuff, but on an initial look I don't think I can justify it.

[Goodear]

I nominated Meng for a lot of different reasons and think he's going to fall somewhere in the 70s or 80s when everything is done. I put more stake in guys that fill difficult roles than your average watcher which is why you will probably see me advocating for white meat babyfaces at some point like Tito Santana and Ricky Steamboat. That beuing said, one of the hardest things to do in wrestling from that standpoint is to be the midcard gatekeeper. You end up putting guys over consistantly while still having to maintain your aura of being a threat. Meng pulled that off in a roster bloated beyond all reason. I honestly don't know what you would consider his biggest win, but he was a guy who could come out to face anyone on the roster and maintain that level of aprehension.

[Matt D]

Is there a bunch of Montreal Haku that's awesome that I haven't seen?

[Shining Wiz]

I nominated Meng for a lot of different reasons and think he's going to fall somewhere in the 70s or 80s when everything is done. I put more stake in guys that fill difficult roles than your average watcher which is why you will probably see me advocating for white meat babyfaces at some point like Tito Santana and Ricky Steamboat. That beuing said, one of the hardest things to do in wrestling from that standpoint is to be the midcard gatekeeper. You end up putting guys over consistantly while still having to maintain your aura of being a threat. Meng pulled that off in a roster bloated beyond all reason. I honestly don't know what you would consider his biggest win, but he was a guy who could come out to face anyone on the roster and maintain that level of aprehension.

 

I second this point. I can't remember a big singles win other than becoming "The King" in the WWF he had, but someone beating him always seemed bigger than it otherwise should have. Not sure that's enough to get to the top 100, but it is definitely a rare skill.

[Matt D]

Also, I love the reasoning here. It wasn't Haku's job to have GREAT MATCHES, but his job was in many ways harder with far more constraints than let's say 1996 Shawn Michaels, for instance.

[Loss]

Him shaking his own head needlessly when applying the Tongan Death Grip made me dislike him in WCW. I think he was a solid worker, but never had a single memorable performance that I can recall. I'm happy to watch something if someone is able to point it out to me.

 

Do you put GREAT MATCHES in all caps to troll me, Matt?

[Childs]

This is one of the few names on the list where I just don't see a case at all. I mean, I like him and think he was a badass, but where's the greatness?

[Childs]

I mean, there might be a 20th century plumber who did his job better than Teddy Roosevelt, but I'm still not naming an elementary school after the plumber.

[NintendoLogic]

Also, I love the reasoning here. It wasn't Haku's job to have GREAT MATCHES, but his job was in many ways harder with far more constraints than let's say 1996 Shawn Michaels, for instance.

 

In what ways was it harder? Be specific.

[BillThompson]

I think what Matt is getting at is that Shawn had carte blanche to go out and have the best match he could possibly have every night. His opponents had to make him look good, the announcers made him look good, etc. For Haku he had to work harder to get his stuff in, to make sure his opponent always looked good in going over him, to get the announcers to notice what he was doing and why he mattered, etc.

[Loss]

I feel like people on this list need to have something remarkable on their resume, not just something that's fundamentally sound.

[BillThompson]

I tend to agree with you, for the most part. I can see the argument Matt is making, but Haku wouldn't make my list. There are a few guys who would be considered lifetime midcard guys who will make my list, but I feel their status is buoyed by being involved in some truly remarkable moments/MOTY caliber matches.

[NintendoLogic]

I think what Matt is getting at is that Shawn had carte blanche to go out and have the best match he could possibly have every night. His opponents had to make him look good, the announcers made him look good, etc. For Haku he had to work harder to get his stuff in, to make sure his opponent always looked good in going over him, to get the announcers to notice what he was doing and why he mattered, etc.

 

But having carte blanche to go out and have the best match you can isn't worth much if you suck. What indication do we have that Haku would've had main event-caliber matches if the bookers had taken him off the leash?

[BillThompson]

I'd say the fact that he was doing really good stuff even with the leash on.

[Goodear]

The difficulty is in that Meng has to drop this match to Sting on Thunder this week and put over Goldberg on Nitro and make both matter. To by the nature of his performance put that tiny bit of doubt in your mind that maybe he might win despite the fact he isn't.

 

Take a look at this.

 

 

 

 

If I were to tell you a guy was going to lose a match in under five minutes via clean fall to another guy's finish, you would think its a simple job match where one guy goes over because he's better. Instead both guys get over and Meng looks like the hardest man in the room just by the way he carries himself and how the match gets put together.

 

I'll look around some more, but this is the nutshell.

[NintendoLogic]

What "really good stuff" did he do besides doing well in a limited role?

[C.S.]

The Faces of Fear was a damn good, underrated tag team, so there's that.

[Timbo Slice]

Can't see it, sadly. Definitely a cool wrestler, but he wasn't someone I'd consider for this.

[PhilTLL]

I think what Matt is getting at is that Shawn had carte blanche to go out and have the best match he could possibly have every night. His opponents had to make him look good, the announcers made him look good, etc. For Haku he had to work harder to get his stuff in, to make sure his opponent always looked good in going over him, to get the announcers to notice what he was doing and why he mattered, etc.

Shawn also had to worry about being the top draw and cutting halfway decent promos and such. All roles have demands.

[goodhelmet]

Definitely enjoy parts of the Haku experience but never the entire package. I think there has to be at least a handful of great matches to be on my list. Can't think of a single shining 4 star Haku match where everything came together.

[BillThompson]

 

I think what Matt is getting at is that Shawn had carte blanche to go out and have the best match he could possibly have every night. His opponents had to make him look good, the announcers made him look good, etc. For Haku he had to work harder to get his stuff in, to make sure his opponent always looked good in going over him, to get the announcers to notice what he was doing and why he mattered, etc.

Shawn also had to worry about being the top draw and cutting halfway decent promos and such. All roles have demands.

 

 

And Shawn failed in both areas, so I'd wager he didn't worry about either one all that much.

[Matt D]

 

I think what Matt is getting at is that Shawn had carte blanche to go out and have the best match he could possibly have every night. His opponents had to make him look good, the announcers made him look good, etc. For Haku he had to work harder to get his stuff in, to make sure his opponent always looked good in going over him, to get the announcers to notice what he was doing and why he mattered, etc.

Shawn also had to worry about being the top draw and cutting halfway decent promos and such. All roles have demands.

 

Bill's judgment on Shawn's success aside, that's actually my exact point. All roles do have demands. I'm not saying that I completely know that Haku could have performed as well in a main event role because of what I've seen him do elsewhere, just like I don't know that some main eventer couldn't have done what Haku did as a heel gatekeeper who had to eat a lot of jobs. The point is that they're different roles with different demands, different opportunities, and different challenges and I think both are worth examining when looking at a wrestler. You can learn a lot about a wrestler from the gatekeeper role and you can learn different things from a main event role, and I'm not discounting one or another for the sake of this project.

[NintendoLogic]

Being a plumber involves different demands and challenges than being President of the United States. And maybe Teddy Roosevelt wouldn't have done as good a job of unclogging sinks. But that doesn't mean the two jobs are even remotely comparable in terms of difficulty.

[Loss]

I think a better way to phrase that is to compare President of the United States to the mayor of a town of 1500 people. The mayor may get more legislation that he wants. He may win by larger majorities. But does that make him a better politician?