Haku/Meng

[Matt D]

I think a better way to phrase that is to compare President of the United States to the mayor of a town of 1500 people. The mayor may get more legislation that he wants. He may win by larger majorities. But does that make him a better politician?

 

No, but he might have had different problems to deal with, like the lack of technology, and it's interesting to see how he deals with those different challenges, and maybe he shows a level of savvy that after seeing what specific challenges he has and seeing what the president does, you decide that he's actually the better politician. It's just a matter of learning enough about politics to try to understand those differences and weigh them.

[ohtani's jacket]

Sting vs. Meng. It does more than rhyme. Those matches right there are your answer about whether he could main event.

[Matt D]

Him shaking his own head needlessly when applying the Tongan Death Grip made me dislike him in WCW. I think he was a solid worker, but never had a single memorable performance that I can recall. I'm happy to watch something if someone is able to point it out to me.

 

Do you put GREAT MATCHES in all caps to troll me, Matt?

 

I've made so many posts in the last few days that I have no idea what I'm doing anymore. Also, I saw my first Volk Han tonight, so I'm definitely all over the place. I am not intentionally trolling anyone; I just come from the old DVDVR school of shouting in all caps when excited. If I start breaking out the ~~~ then we're in trouble.

 

And again, a lot of what I argued wasn't necessarily saying I'm going to put Haku on my list. Some of it is just general stuff that I'm working through (which will bleed all over when applicable, here, because I thought Goodear had a really good point that could be extrapolated outwards). I was hoping Dylan or someone would chime in on really good stuff from him in Montreal I haven't seen. What's his best SWS match? I've seen one or two fun matches with him in Mexico but just fun.

 

I'd put his best stuff as Islanders matches (I like Rick Martel vs Haku a lot), the Cage match vs Slaughter/Blackwell which was my #2 or #3 AWA set match, and Survivor Series 89 which we had as a Microscope Match where I think people liked his performance a lot. I do feel there are gaps I haven't seen. I've got to watch the longish Meng vs Benoit match again and I don't really want to.

[JerryvonKramer]

A good Matt D style project would be to watch all his matches tagging with Andre, where he was basically working 2 vs 1 handicap matches, and see how well he carried his end and how smartly he worked.

 

I find it surprising people have focused on Islanders and Meng. For me, "peak" Haku is his singles run in between those two periods.

[Matt D]

I love Andre in the Colossal Connection matches. That's my favorite Andre probably and it's some of the most brilliant wrestling I've ever seen when it comes to using what resources you have available when they've become, both so very, very limited, but also so incredibly special. There's very little wrestling smarter than Andre in the Colossal Connection.

 

One of my favorite performances of all time without question is Andre and Haku vs Demolition in December at MSG.

[JerryvonKramer]

Andre should probably be nominated.

[Childs]

He is.

[Lee Casebolt]

I love Haku, but no. I don't buy the "he had different obligations" argument in his case, either, since his basic responsibilities were to look scary (check) while beating up jobbers or dropping short matches to top guys. Didn't have to do promos, didn't have to carry angles, didn't work long matches.

[GSR]

The Faces of Fear was a damn good, underrated tag team, so there's that.

Examples to back this up, as I can't think of anything that I would rate as great let alone 'must see'.

[Loss]

Their best match was probably against Jericho and Eddy on the 2/24/97 Nitro.

[El-P]

Anyone interested in Haku should definitely check out his stint in SWS in 91/92 tagging with Yoshiaki Yatsu, mostly in semi and main-events involving Tenryu. Good stuff, interesting to see Haku mixing up with the stiff style of the promotion and being totally at ease there.

[Loss]

How was he in CMLL? I know the other wrestlers didn't enjoy working with him because they weren't used to the stiffness.

[Loss]

Who is above and behind him as a worker on the Samoan family tree?

[goc]

For my money, the best work I have seen from him was in Montreal before he went to WWF. There was a match with Dino Bravo & King Tonga vs. The Road Warriors where Tonga looks like the baddest man on the planet against The Warriors for the few opening minutes of the match that aired. If there was one match I could just magically get a full version of, it would be that one.

[Matt D]

How was he in CMLL? I know the other wrestlers didn't enjoy working with him because they weren't used to the stiffness.

 

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2015/02/mlj-enter-king-haku-1-king-haku.html

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2015/02/mlj-enter-king-haku-2-king-haku-la.html

 

Two Haku in CMLL reviews I did. The first match was great because of Casas interacting with Haku. The second one was all about Fiera and Casas to build up their match.

[Coffey]

OK, off-topic rant a lil bit to start.

 

Here is where my biggest disparity with several of the other regulars on this website I think differs:

 

I have watched pro-wrestling since 1987-1988. I started with WWF due to getting drawn in as a child with Hulk Hogan. I watched the Mega Powers explode & became a big fan of the Ultimate Warrior. I was a typical kid. I ate the babyface shit up & loved the larger-than-life colorful heroes. When I hit my teens, Hulk Hogan went to WCW & became a bad guy. He was the rebellious heel & was with the "cool" nWo. I, as a teenager, cheered the bad guys. Then I got into ECW, because pro-wrestling had blown up. I had watched wrestling my whole life but now that it was super popular, even in high school among non-fans, I wanted to see the "underground" stuff (lol), so that I had more information than the people that just watched RAW or Nitro. ECW PPV was available on Time Warner Cable in Indiana starting with ECW Guilty as Charged 1999. I missed that one due to not having the money to order it, however I saved & bought the next one. Then I didn't miss a PPV of theirs (or an episode of ECW on TNN) until they closed. During the time in-between Guilty as Charged & Living Dangerously, I started reading up about ECW. I had just gotten internet at my home at the end of 1998. I even (shamefully) had a subscription to Wrestling Digest magazine... One of the first things I remember reading online about pro-wrestling were people crapping on Kevin Nash (whom I liked) for "using backstage politics to end the Streak." I had no idea what they were talking about...a whole new can of worms was opened.

 

As I read more and more about wrestling, I became more interested in the backstage stories than I did the on-air product. I would read rumors, I would read message forums. I would read "dirtsheets." I read Dave Meltzer or, at the time, Scott Keith (which was where I first saw people rating wrestlers/matches). I was on several wrestling message forums. Starting with WrestlingGames.com (due to WCW/NWO Revenge on Nintendo 64). Then I ended up at quite a few others, including TheSmartMarks and DVDVR. I got in contact with Goodhelmet, had some VHS compilation tapes made & got into Puroresu. Later some DVDs. I learned about Misawa, Kawada, Kabashi, etc. I got into Ring of Honor, after ECW died, and I watched Samoa Joe, Daniel Bryan, etc. Now I watch Indies and try to catch some other odds & ends stuff.

 

All my heroes growing up, Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, etc. I found out were pieces of shit. I read how they weren't good workers way before finding out about their out-of-character lives. Without those guys, I never even become a fan. I can't get into most Lucha (I like Lucha Underground but have been told that's not "real lucha"). I don't watch wrestling from England or other non-Japanese areas. I've pretty much only seen WWF, WCW, ECW, ROH & the "holy trinity" Puroresu stuff, along with some modern NJPW & ROH from about 2004-onward. Throw in (very little) territory stuff & things from YouTube over the years & that's the entirety of my pro-wrestling timeline.

 

I'm not even sure how many wrestlers I can name, period. Like, off the top of my head, just listing any non-jobber that comes to mind. Could I even get to 200? 300? So when people say things like "no way this guy makes my list! I can think of a couple hundred better!" I'm just dazzled by the sheer amount of wrestling that other people had to have not only seen but can remember. I can't remember the card from the PPV I just watched a couple weeks ago.

 

I have literally watched wrestling my entirely life. I'm in my early-thirties. I have over twenty-five years of watching now & these forums make me feel like I have the least knowledge of anyone else here. It's crazy. I would rather watch new wrestling for the first time than wrestling I've seen before for a second time. I'm also not going to go out of my way to watch stuff that I don't like. In example, Lucha or black & white old wrestling. I don't enjoy them. Not my cup of tea. I've tried. I just feel like I'm wasting hours of my life if I continue to keep pursuing either.

 

I can watch good matches & see it's a good match. I can watch bad matches & see it's a bad match. It's harder for me to watch stuff in a vacuum & try to put myself into the match as just an athletic competition. Especially with U.S. wrestling. It's easier with Japanese wrestling as they seem to do most of their story-telling in-ring anyway. The outside the ring story matters too much in America. The characters matter too much. Just watching a compilation tape of Steve Austin wouldn't let someone know how impactful he was on the shows. It was the emotional connection to the characters, being drawn into the story and then caring about the outcomes of matches because of those. I wanted to watch week-to-week & see the payoffs on the PPVs. I don't want pro-wrestling to become a bunch of Chris Benoit like characters that just put on good matches. I want more Hulk Hogans that draw people in & make them care.

 

I just think I have a very different mentality than a lot of others not only as it pertains to pro-wrestling as a whole but in regards to this list, too. When I read Haku/Meng in the thread title, I was curious to see a case made for him. Instead it's people struggling to make a case for him being in top 100. Which is fine, I'm not sure he should be there either but if that's the case, why was he nominated at all?

 

However, the point of different wrestlers having different roles in the company is certainly a good one and one worth thinking about. You need the guys like Tito Santana and Greg Valentine. You need the Bret Harts and Shawn Michaels. I think you also need the guys like Santino and Warlord and Earthquake.

 

 

Definitely enjoy parts of the Haku experience but never the entire package. I think there has to be at least a handful of great matches to be on my list. Can't think of a single shining 4 star Haku match where everything came together.

 

I agree with this. I like Haku/Meng. He's always been one of my favorite guys to watch. He just had an aura about him. Like Mark Henry had that same aura for awhile during his Hall of Pain days. His theme would hit and you would think "oh shit..." like someone was about to get messed up. Brock has that now. Meng was a midcard dude but he was booked hella strong to always look like a beast, so you never really counted him out of anything. I was younger & more naive watching him in WCW, so I thought he had a shot at beating Goldberg, or The Giant posted in the video in this thread for example. I just think he played his role really well. I would rather watch Meng be entertaining than quite a few other people going on my list work great matches because sometimes you're just in the mood for wrestling that isn't just a 20-minute "epic." Ya know? I don't feel like this GWE list has a place to acknowledge those kind of guys. I love The Nasty Boys, in example. Those two entertain the fuck out of me. I never, ever skip one of their matches when watching something on WWE Network because I know, somewhere, I'm going to see something in that match that catches my eye. A stiff punch or whatever. Those guys are great.

 

I remember reading that for a long time, The Brooklyn Brawler was the "gatekeeper" for WWF. If you got a try-out match, you worked Brawler & then when the match was over, people would ask Brawler if you were any good. If he said no, you weren't getting hired. That's a pretty influential role for a guy that a lot of people look at as a career jobber. He's still with the company, I believe, started in 1983. No one is going to put him on their list. He was never asked to be the guy that put on 4-star matches.

 

I think there's a difference between being a great in-ring worker and a great pro-wrestler as a whole. There's more to it than just the bell-to-bell part. This list isn't about the 100 greatest pro-wrestlers ever, it's about the 100 greatest in-ring workers ever & there's a big difference. Ric Flair is great not just because of his in-ring but because of his promo and his character. He was memorable. Japanese wrestlers when viewed by an American audience though, it never crosses their mind about them being a good promo. It just doesn't matter. So how can we compare the two equally or objectively? I have a seen a helluva lot more Ric Flair stuff than older guys where there's less footage. That's not really fair to those older guys. It's hard to compare someone's entire career to someone that only has like 20-25 matches total on tape.

[WingedEagle]

All of that was spectacular.

[GOTNW]

Completely disagree on the best pro wrestler/best in-ring wrestler distinction. If you are not good at pro wrestling then you are not good at pro wrestling. Ric Flair may be great at cutting promos but this is a poll that rates pro wrestlers, not public speakers. To me it would be equally as ludicrous as claiming Chael Sonnen is a better MMAer than someone because he can talk shit and making a distinction between that and "fighter". I love Brad Maddox. I'd be much happier if Raw was just two hours and fifteen minutes of him doing shit. I think he's a great TV personality and an insanely charismatic performer. But I can't call him a grear wrestler. The highest praise I can give to his wrestling-related work is that I enjoyed him bumping around for Ryback. But he's great at the other things he does. That aren't wrestling. Sure, they've become incredibly intertwined with wrestling programming-but that doesn't make any difference.

[Jingus]

Being a self-promoter and a hype man is part of being a pro wrestler. Even if you're having a five-star all-time-masterpiece exhibition of technical wizardry, none of that matters if you're playing to a building so empty that, as Ricky Morton likes to say, "you could've thrown a hand grenade into the crowd and not killed anybody". You have to be able to sell the idea of your matches to the point where people will show up to see them, or else you're not gonna have many matches in the first place.

[GOTNW]

And since we've established this poll is about artistic greatness and not commercial success that doesn't matter much. I dislike the use of the word "technical" in wrestling analysis. What does it even refer to? Quality of move execution? Is it just an inferior replacement for matwork? Describing a worker as technically proficient would at least me give me some idea what it'd be referring to (fluid move execution, botch-free etc.). But that line of thinking also included arguments for Benoit and Dynamite Kid as best workers ever and thankfully people have moved away from that.

[dedhemingway]

I'd just like to add that, while I understand that a lot of you guys divorce the in-ring action from the talking, or the character, I don't understand WHY you do it. It's clear, to me, that it's all part of one package. Wrestling in a vacuum would be meaningless. The Sonnen comparison doesn't really hold up, because, while his talking is a bonus in terms of getting eyes on the fight, at the end of the day what matters is whether he wins. In pro wrestling, the talking is as important at the in-ring stuff.

[GOTNW]

I've come to the conclusion that if you need to talk to get over the idea of your wrestling character then you are not good at character work.

[El-P]

In pro wrestling, the talking is as important at the in-ring stuff.

 

Let's not be US centric.

[Loss]

It's not talking so much as presence. Good promos are a means to an end.

[JerryvonKramer]

I dislike the use of the word "technical" in wrestling analysis. What does it even refer to? Quality of move execution?

Just speaking for my own usage in reviews, "technical" wrestling refers to a style, mat-based, clean breaks, sticking to the rules, working a gameplan, generally fewer strikes and more holds. Treating wrestling like a fair sporting contest. This is "technical" wrestling. Lou Thesz was a technical wrestler. Verne Gagne was a technical wrestler.

 

Using a closed fist, punching and kicking, bending or stretching the rules. Treating wrestling as a fight -- all of this sort of thing would come under "brawling". Abdullah the Butcher is a brawler.

 

The confusion comes when you have guys like Race, Flair, Jumbo and so on from the late 70s onwards who worked a more bomb-heavy style. Emphasis on bumping and moving and motion and throws. This is not "technical" work in the strictest sense, in my view, but what you might call a more "workrate heavy" style. Work rate being the extent to which guys are throwing themselves around. This is the style fathered by Race, Flair and Terry Funk, among others. I think Billy Robinson is more like this too, even though he excelled at "techincal" work.

 

Then you have "high flyers".

 

Then you have, for lack of a better term, "WWF main event types", which is somehow none of the above. Think Hogan.

 

I guess the point of this post was that in my mind "technical" does have a very firm definition.