Ted DiBiase

[ohtani's jacket]

Poor Ted. Wasn't he voted the best wrestler on the Mid-South set? I've been rewatching the Duggan feud, and honestly if people hype up Sangre Chicana and Perro Aguayo then Ted should get hype for the "Doogan" feud alone. 

[Reel]

The thing that hurts Ted, and I think this came up last time, is that his WWF run is so lackluster, and people make excuses for that, but the fact of the matter is his matches mostly just aren't that good, and in big spots, he doesn't shine. Like, the Ultimate Warrior has a far superior top-end output than Ted, and I don't think most sensible people would say Warrior is better, but working the same shows on the same schedule, that crowbar outperformed DiBiase. If your most visible stuff is underwhelming, it takes a lot to overcome that, and I'm not sure Ted has enough great stuff to overcome that, whereas someone like Martel seems to be able to overcome the Model being an underwhelming in-ring run. 

 

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm pretty sure I drove Parv nuts last time by claiming that The Big Bossman had a better WWF run than Ted. 

Ted has some good WWF stuff -- the early matches with Patterson, his performance in the '89 Rumble, his matches against Bret, the Virgil match, the Shawn match, a Savage match or two. He lacks that one definitive match, but how many of the territory guys had one? And even among the guys who did, take away Rude's carry of Warrior and his output is even thinner than Ted's. Now if you want to argue that his work against Hogan and Savage is disappointing, that's another story, but when it comes to late 80s-early 90s WWF, I feel like you need to adopt a Matt D approach to wrestling -- i.e. could Ted possibly have done a better job of putting over his feud with Dusty and Sapphire? I know damn well he couldn't have done a better job of feuding with Piper and Virgil. I wish this period of WWF had better matches, but it didn't, and so we're left making excuses. 

[Reel]

12 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I'm pretty sure I drove Parv nuts last time by claiming that The Big Bossman had a better WWF run than Ted. 

Ted has some good WWF stuff -- the early matches with Patterson, his performance in the '89 Rumble, his matches against Bret, the Virgil match, the Shawn match, a Savage match or two. He lacks that one definitive match, but how many of the territory guys had one? And even among the guys who did, take away Rude's carry of Warrior and his output is even thinner than Ted's. Now if you want to argue that his work against Hogan and Savage is disappointing, that's another story, but when it comes to late 80s-early 90s WWF, I feel like you need to adopt a Matt D approach to wrestling -- i.e. could Ted possibly have done a better job of putting over his feud with Dusty and Sapphire? I know damn well he couldn't have done a better job of feuding with Piper and Virgil. I wish this period of WWF had better matches, but it didn't, and so we're left making excuses. 

He for sure has a lot of good matches, and when I said his matches weren't that good, I meant that in the sense that they weren't up to the level of his reputation. I will say that he was great in angles, I just don't think the matches ended up being especially good, in terms of being good matches and not necessary parts of angles, outside of the Dusty/Dustin tag, the Savage MSG match, and maybe some of the Jake stuff. 

 

[Phil Schneider]

I helped put together the Mid-South set and there were some deadly dull DiBiase matches we didn’t include. There are some high end brawls but the average DiBiase house show match was sominex

[elliott]

Its a shame we never got a proper WWF 80s set. It likely would've put to bed the myth that there wasn't good wrestling in 80s WWF. I've seen too many good matches with Hogan, Piper, Orton, Orndorff, Savage, Steamboat, Valentine, Tito, Slaughter, Bret, Garvin, the Rockers etc to go along with that line of thinking. We can point to matches like Rude vs Warrior or Bret vs Davey of guys in WWF carrying less than ideal opponents to memorable all time matches. Ted never did while he was there. But he was good.  Its ok to be good like Ted was. No one is saying he's bad. We're just also not saying he's one of the 100 best wrestlers ever. But anyway, this is more thinking about Dibaise than I wanted to do. 

[Matt D]

13 minutes ago, elliott said:

Its a shame we never got a proper WWF 80s set. It likely would've put to bed the myth that there wasn't good wrestling in 80s WWF. I've seen too many good matches with Hogan, Piper, Orton, Orndorff, Savage, Steamboat, Valentine, Tito, Slaughter, Bret, Garvin, the Rockers etc to go along with that line of thinking. We can point to matches like Rude vs Warrior or Bret vs Davey of guys in WWF carrying less than ideal opponents to memorable all time matches. Ted never did while he was there. But he was good.  Its ok to be good like Ted was. No one is saying he's bad. We're just also not saying he's one of the 100 best wrestlers ever. But anyway, this is more thinking about Dibaise than I wanted to do. 

Think more about Bill Eadie instead.

[elliott]

Bill Eadie too!

[Frankensteiner]

21 hours ago, Cien Caras said:

There’s nothing left to say about Dibiase, he’s fine, he’s good, not particularly interesting, not really excited about seeing him, wouldn’t get excited if there were previously unseen Dibiase matches unearthed, we know what we’re getting. At this point he’s boring.

I don't know about that. All of his newly released Houston matches were excellent and had me excited for more until the plug was pulled on that footage. 

[Matt D]

I think the Houston matches made me more excited for babyface Dibiase, certainly, which isn't necessarily his traditional "case." It ends up being a bit of a wash.

He's sort of like Hennig in that regard where the conventional wisdom case for him is the opposite of his actual case.

[ohtani's jacket]

On 4/26/2021 at 1:03 AM, elliott said:

Its a shame we never got a proper WWF 80s set. It likely would've put to bed the myth that there wasn't good wrestling in 80s WWF. I've seen too many good matches with Hogan, Piper, Orton, Orndorff, Savage, Steamboat, Valentine, Tito, Slaughter, Bret, Garvin, the Rockers etc to go along with that line of thinking. We can point to matches like Rude vs Warrior or Bret vs Davey of guys in WWF carrying less than ideal opponents to memorable all time matches. Ted never did while he was there. But he was good.  Its ok to be good like Ted was. No one is saying he's bad. We're just also not saying he's one of the 100 best wrestlers ever. But anyway, this is more thinking about Dibaise than I wanted to do. 

How much of that good stuff was from '87 onwards? Is it really Ted's fault that he never had a big IC title match? He had his own belt. 

[ohtani's jacket]

5 hours ago, Matt D said:

I think the Houston matches made me more excited for babyface Dibiase, certainly, which isn't necessarily his traditional "case." It ends up being a bit of a wash.

He's sort of like Hennig in that regard where the conventional wisdom case for him is the opposite of his actual case.

What new Houston matches were there?

[elliott]

The Rockers were all post 87. Savage was great post 87. Garvin was post 87. Piper was better post 87. Bret was post 87. Bossman. Ted was as featured as anybody and topped out at very good. 

[ohtani's jacket]

The Rockers were a tag team. I'm not really up for revisiting DiBiase & IRS right now. Savage's output was dramatically lower post 87 compared to the feuds with Tito and Steamboat. The Garvin vs. Valentine feud is good, but I don't think it makes a strong case for Garvin outshining DiBiase in the WWF. Piper had about the same output as Ted, maybe less. Bret wasn't really a territory guy in my view, and Dibiase helped make him as a singles wrestler. Bossman is awesome, but doesn't have a classic to his name unless you really love the Hogan cage match. 

Ted's one big shot was the Wrestlemania IV main event. If he'd had a classic match with Savage, the narrative would be different. I don't think he had a ton of opportunities after that. He wasn't in position to have a classic IC title match, and they didn't give him any real opportunities to have a classic with the Million Dollar Belt. So, basically you're left with ring general stuff against Bret, Shawn, Virgil, Dustin, or matches where they got eff all time in the ring like the bouts against Jake and Bossman. 

I just find it annoying when people say "Oh, Rude had the Warrior" match when pretty much nothing else Rude did in the WWF is as good. 

[Phil Schneider]

I don't really consider the WWF runs of 80s territories guys. It's pretty much always bad, so I wouldn't ding DiBiase or JYD or Duggan, although I do think the fact that they could still be excellent in that constraint really helps Piper and Valentine

[strobogo]

As I mentioned before, the Macho/DiBiase match on  the SNME right before WM4 is basically that match exactly except much better for various reasons, including a much hotter crowd and two guys that hadn't had 3 other matches in the night even if they were short. There were FIFTEEN matches before DiBiase/Savage at WM. There was no energy left for anyone or anything by that point. Miserable show. 

[elliott]

I'm a big fan of the Rude vs Piper cage match too. Bossman doesn't have a classic in WWF (like Ted) but the match with Barbarian from the Royal Rumble is as good as any Ted in the WWF match I can think of. Realistically though I don't really care about his WWF work because it doesn't really factor into his top 100 case because its not top 100 level work. I agree with Phil that I don't hold the WWF runs against certain territory guys like Dibiase Duggan or Hennig. But there are definitely contemporary WWF workers who did add to their case with their WWF work. 

Anyway, the Mid-South stuff is great. I didn't watch the week to week stuff like Phil, but the big stuff that made the set is genuinely awesome. Love the Duggan feud. Love the Magnum TA matches. That run definitely makes him a contender for a top 100. I don't think he looks bad on a list. I just doubt he'd make my list. 

[strobogo]

Idk if they are "classics" or not but 

 

Boss Man vs Hogan cagematch

Boss Man vs Barbarian at the Rumble

Boss Man vs Mr. Perfect at WM

Boss Man vs Bam Bam at the Rumble 

 

Wanna say there was a real solid Ted vs Boss Man match either on MSG or MLG show

[NotJayTabb]

DiBiase is a guy who I like well enough, but I don't see him getting onto my list. He reminds me of Terry Taylor (who did make my list in 2016, but is unlikely to in 2026), in that he's always solid, but never blows me away. Even when I watch Mid-South, which I haven't watched extensively but am working my way through, I get more excited by a Paul Orndorff match than I do DiBiase. I'm still working through Mid-South, so I'm not 100% ruling him out, but he's unlikely for me.

[ohtani's jacket]

The 8/83 Duggan vs. DiBiase Loser Leaves Town Cage Match is awesome. #Tedfor2026

[Frankensteiner]

23 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

The 8/83 Duggan vs. DiBiase Loser Leaves Town Cage Match is awesome. #Tedfor2026

Since you were asking, the other new Houston matches are:

vs. Murdoch - after DiBiase's face turn. Had this match previously but not complete.

w/ Dr. Death vs. Murdoch & Masked Superstar - 3/14/86

vs. Terry Gordy (UWF Title Tournament) - 5/30/86

vs. Terry Gordy (Cage) / vs. Michael Hayes (Cage, Country Whipping Match) - 10/17/86. The Gordy match was available previously but not complete.

vs. Michael Hayes (Glove On A Pole) - 1/23/87

[JerryvonKramer]

On 4/26/2021 at 11:42 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

I'm not really up for revisiting DiBiase & IRS right now.

If anyone ever does, the only matches I'd seek out are against the Steiners and against the Beverley Brothers in 1993 (it's on an early Raw and a super rare heel vs. heel match). Aside from those, Money Inc were saddled with the Nasty Boys and the Natural Disasters for much of 1992 and even Bushwackers -- the tag division of that period is absolutely putrid and for whatever reason most of the Road Warriors matches happened on untaped house shows, including title switches. Rotunda is also extra-specially chinlock-y as IRS for some reason. People may even be better off seeking out pre-Money Inc DiBiase and IRS teamups from around the time of This Tuesday in Texas in 1991. I seem to remember a half-decent Bret Hart and Virgil match from an old Sean Mooney-fronted coliseum home video, and possibly a random High Energy (Owen Hart and Koko Ware) match or two from Superstars. Maybe there's is one or two Tito and Virgil matches also.

 

If I have a criticism of the entire Money Inc run it is that they were booked not only as chickenshit heels but as superduper chickenshit heels in the Honkytonk Man vain. There's a match from a SNME against Savage and Warrior where it's not even believable Money Inc would be in with a chance of beating the babyface team. This is why using them as Hogan's comeback feud in 93 is somewhat strange given that it had already been established that they were the most weasel of all weasel teams. Honestly, I think they were booked weaker than any tag champions in WWF history. They'd even have to cheat or take a DQ against lower card teams like Bushwackers or High Energy most of the time.

[strobogo]

Not that I have a lot of time for Mike Rotunda under any gimmick, but specifically under the IRS gimmick, there might not be a more boring wrestler in WWE history. Or sweaty. 

[ohtani's jacket]

The DiBiase/Magnum TA feud is awesome. That Tulsa match, good god almighty. Guys who have a better rep than Ted that I can't understand:

Tully Blanchard
Arn Anderson
Greg Valentine
Sgt. Slaughter
Roddy Piper
Buddy Rose
Barry Windham
Ric Rude
Bret Hart
Curt Hennig
Rick Martel
Bill Dundee

DiBiase doesn't take a backseat to anyone in the 80s. #No Ted, no list

[KB8]

I like Ted and had him on my list in 2016, ahead of people like Shinobu Kandori, Tully Blanchard, Takeshi Ono, Yoshihiro Takayama, Andre the Giant, Negro Navarro and Atlantis. He wouldn't be above them now, but that's because I ranked those wrestlers lower (in a few cases substantially) than I should've. I don't regret voting for DiBiase and I'll consider him again for next time, even if he'll probably drop a bit.

 

Going through OJ's list:

Quote

Tully Blanchard

I'd go Tully for sure at this point. Tully was incredible. His bread and butter was being a snivelling weasel but he could flip the switch and turn into a rabid little monster as well as anybody ever. Prefer Tully in tags and I think Tully's best year ('86) - week to week, small shows and big shows, midcard and main event, lengthy showcase matches and five minutes studio bouts - is better than DiBiase's best ('85).  Prefer Tully's best 10 year stretch to DiBiase's, though the Houston footage bolsters both their cases. DiBiase was a really good babyface towards the end of that Watts run, though. I don't think I've ever seen Tully work babyface so I guess Ted has that over him. I actually think the best Ted/Magnum match (one of the two from that same-day double shot) is closer to the best Tully/Magnum match (Starrcade) than most people would. In fact I think the DiBiase/Duggan multi-stips match is better than Magnum/Tully. Ted has incredible highs, basically. But Tully has the incredible highs and his average is better, and I'd rather watch Tully in a multitude of different settings than DiBiase. Tully's match with Funk at Slamboree '94 is also better than any 90s DiBiase match.

 

Quote

Arn Anderson

Pretty easily Arn, though he doesn't have the résumé of amazing singles matches that DiBiase has. I guess DiBiase maybe wins on output? Arn's tag work probably narrows that, or maybe evens it out, especially if you're someone who values tag matches highly (and I do). Arn was a better stooge, better at working a body part, had more interesting cutoffs and was at least as believable as an ass-kicker, even if he never had the cool glove (that's not sarcasm, I love the loaded glove). I find Arn much more interesting in a week to week setting than DiBiase as well. I guess maybe Ted has him beat on longevity? I'm not really sold on the idea that people's work fell off a cliff whenever they got to the WWF and I can't really think of any WWF DiBiase as being particularly memorable. There's a handful of Brainbusters tags there that I'd call great, though. Honestly this isn't very close to me. 

 

Quote

Greg Valentine

I prefer Valentine. The more Greg I see the more I think he's a top 50 guy and I've never really thought of Ted as being that. Ted/Duggan is otherworldly but Valentine is one of the few guys here whose best work I'd for sure put above it. That Piper feud...christ that stuff is amazing. 

 

Quote

Sgt. Slaughter

Maybe DiBiase? Output-wise it might be Sarge - the Sheik feud, Final Conflict, I love at least two of the Backlund matches. He has amazing highs, like DiBiase. I think Sarge is a better brawler and bumper (and obviously Ted is a great brawler in his own right). As far as signature bumps, Sarge's ringpost bump is cooler than DiBiase's backward roll-headstand bit. DiBiase probably has him beat on working holds, but at the same time I'm struggling to think of any DiBiase matches where I'm blown away by him actually doing that specific thing. 

 

Quote

Roddy Piper

If you're going "technical wrestler" then I guess DiBiase stomps him. Piper's highest high is better than DiBiase's but DiBiase maybe has more super high end output (I say "maybe" because I love Piper in Portland, but I acknowledge that others might not be as hot on it). Prefer Piper in brawls and I don't think there have been many as good as him at getting across a sense of hatred. Like, ever. Piper's stuff certainly looked ugly, which I'd argue often worked, but in terms of execution then Ted was obviously better. Piper's timing as a babyface was tremendous, though. A big Piper comeback where he's dodging and weaving and trying to pepper in shots on jelly legs is one of my favourite things in wrestling. So is DiBiase's fist drop but I'll take the former. 

 

Quote

Buddy Rose

I mean, I know OJ isn't a massive Buddy fan, but this is pretty much Rose in a wash for me. Again, DiBiase's peaks are sensational and I'd argue they're every bit as high as Buddy's if not higher at the absolute top end (seriously, I really love the multi-stips match), but everything else is Buddy. Hold-worker, stooge, being impressive in a variety of settings, bumping, brawling, variety of work -- if he's not better in all of those categories he's at worst as good. This isn't close to me. 

 

Quote

Barry Windham

I don't really have much to say about Windham at this point. I think he's better than DiBiase at most things, though he doesn't have a sub-10 minute blood-soaked prison riot as good as the Duggan cage match. Better tag worker, more interesting week to week, prefer him as a babyface, and I think one of Windham's best qualities is being able to establish hierarchy depending on his opponent. The Eddie Gilbert match, the Scorpio match, the Regal match. I prefer Windham.

 

Quote

Ric Rude

DiBiase really takes this on longevity if nothing else. I love Rude and his peak run is one of my all-time favourites, but there's not really enough meat on the bone even when you cherry pick stuff from other points of his career (Warrior match, RnR tags, the best Memphis stuff). If I'm going purely on output then I think the Steamboat ironman match is incredible, but a bit below DiBiase and Duggan bouncing around in tuxedos trying to take the jaw off each other. 

 

Quote

Bret Hart

I really can't be bothered talking about Bret Hart at this point, but peak output v peak output I prefer DiBiase's best match. The rest of it is probably Bret but I'd listen to arguments the other way and wouldn't put up a fight. 

 

Quote

Curt Hennig

I prefer Ted in maybe every category other than babyface prodigy. Hennig was probably a better bumper but the WWF stuff is still too much for me (someone who regularly gets a kick out of Shawn Michaels bumping like a dipshit). 

 

Quote

Rick Martel

Martel. Ted was a better heel and I prefer the best DiBiase match to the best Martel match, but Martel is all-time level as a babyface and the Bockwinkel series gives him the output. Matt D would say the Model run hurts him and I wouldn't even bother arguing, because it was a whole lot of nothing for the most part. But peak Martel was amazing. I don't think there's a huge gap overall, though. 

 

Quote

Bill Dundee

I prefer in pretty much every category. Dundee's also one of the only guys here with a match I think is better than DiBiase's best. I guess I'd argue DiBiase has more top tier stuff with a variety of opponents, but more or less everything else I'm leaning Dundee. Studio worker, mat/hold-worker, brawler, shtick, stooge, babyface, input and output...yeah, I'm with Dundee all day.