Jimmy Redman Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Yeah basically that. That's basically my whole problem with Hunter. He COULD be good, well good a lot more often than he is, if he got out of his own way. But fundamentally, he has these ideas about how he should be portrayed, how he portrays himself, and how to work matches, that expose him as not as good as he thinks he is, because he doesn't realise that he can't be the toughest man on earth all the time. The Brock feud is a perfect example of that. Back in 2012, Brock had come in as a total wrecking machine, a whole other level of beast who kicked the shit out of Cena to no consequence apart from the fluke loss. THAT was how they should always portray Brock, as The Other, as completely different, as a guy that people simply try to withstand. Then the Hunter feud began, and they start having every other feud ever, with segments on Raw ending in Hunter bundling Brock out of the ring and standing tall, shit that Brock had no business doing because it made him look like every other heel. And same with the matches, Brock did a little of the Brock stuff, but there was also a lot of back-and-forth and Hunter basically working even with him, which is fucking ridiculous. Cena was The Man and perennial WWE Champ and Brock annihilated him, but Hunter can't comprehend showing that kind of vulnerability, so he works Even Stevens with the same guy in his next match. Not to mention, at this point in time Hunter was already the COO on TV and wasn't even wrestling at this point apart from the yearly Taker match. He was the fucking Authority Figure on TV and he STILL books himself to be as tough as Brock Lesnar! It was fucked, and it showed that Hunter can't portray himself as anything other than The Almighty Huntor, which too often affects the quality of his work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I've said it before but Brock would make my list from his comeback work alone. There's simply nobody in wrestling history like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 The second that Brock had to backpedal for Hunter's bullshit punches on TV it killed a little bit of the mystique he'd built with the Cena match. I actually don't mind the Summerslam match too much. It's a HHH match for sure, but there's a logic to how it progresses with the limbwork and at least Brock went over. The feud should have ended there though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 It was fucked, and it showed that Hunter can't portray himself as anything other than The Almighty Huntor, which too often affects the quality of his work. That's why the relatively short Bryan match was a downright miracle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El McKell Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 It was fucked, and it showed that Hunter can't portray himself as anything other than The Almighty Huntor, which too often affects the quality of his work. That's why the relatively short Bryan match was a downright miracle. Although I remember really liking that match I didn't remember it being short at all. Looked it up it went 25:58 and was the longest match on the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 It FELT shorter than it was, then. I'm calling that all the more impressive. I would have believe you if you said it went 15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chief Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I can't wait for Brock vs. Kofi. Brock vs. Rollins will be fun too. Makes it all the more disappointing that they wasted three Brock dates on HHH matches. I like to see how he works when he moves around the card, not just in "Legends" matches which are foolproof to a certain extent. If you also value lower-key stuff as part of a resume, go back to his first run. Brock was consistently having fun SmackDown matches, not just main events. He had what might be my favorite big man vs. little man match that never gets talked about with Rey. He did a lot of fun stuff with Matt Hardy, World's Greatest Tag Team, Paul London and even A-Train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Brock-Cesaro is still the match I most want to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I feel crazy saying Brock's work between now and the ballot could move him up a ton, but I absolutely believe it. Rewatched a few of his recent big matches and he is just spectacular. He will definitely place higher than Volk Han or anyone else lacking serious volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 He's a lock for my ballot. "Special" has to outweigh volume sometimes, even if it's hard to figure out exactly how. It's the Sandy Koufax-Gale Sayers argument. Bottom line: With Bryan hurt, Brock is the only person who gets me truly excited for current WWE. Not saying he's the only good thing in the promotion. But he's the one guy I actively look forward to seeing. Based on this thread, it seems I'm not alone. That has to matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 The Kofi squash was an amazing spectacle and another feather in his cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blak Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 What was so special about the Kofi squash? He no-sold a couple of moves, then he hit Kofi with a couple of Germans and an F5. The post-match beatdown with New Day was standard stuff. What am I missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 I'm with you that there was nothing so special about it. Just haven't really had that kind of squash from someone like Brock on TV in a while so while it was unique it was nothing blowaway from my perspective. Just fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 What was so special about the Kofi squash? He no-sold a couple of moves, then he hit Kofi with a couple of Germans and an F5. The post-match beatdown with New Day was standard stuff. What am I missing? You aren't missing anything. I enjoyed it for what it was. It was special because of Lesnar's presence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 I actually thought it was remarkably UNSPECIAL and not a particularly entertaining squash. It was fine, but I left it shrugging my shoulders and thinking Brock came across as a guy occupying space, instead of a "special attraction" in this instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blak Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 I actually thought it was remarkably UNSPECIAL and not a particularly entertaining squash. It was fine, but I left it shrugging my shoulders and thinking Brock came across as a guy occupying space, instead of a "special attraction" in this instance. While I agree with this, I also understand the idea that they have to tap the brake pedal on Brock a little bit, if only because there really isn't anywhere for him to go from an in-ring standpoint (except for a rematch with Reigns, of course) if they keep escalating things. What can Lesnar do with Kofi Kingston to top taking Cena to Suplex City sixteen times, short of pulling off a Mortal Kombat fatality? The bigger question, I think, is "why do you book this match in the first place?" Which isn't really Lesnar's fault, so it's probably better suited for the show thread. (Though maybe a better line of discussion for this thread would be how much WWE's handling of Brock enhances his post-UFC performances and how much credit, if any, Brock should get for that as far as his work is concerned.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 The only thing Brock has been involved in since returning that was not in some way special or a waste was being laid out by the job squad a few weeks ago. This was nothing more than a glorified squash but good enoughb for that that it more than maintained and enhanced his aura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Curious where people put him. Some terrific stuff in the first run. Cena match. Then some solid stuff on the next go round leading into the Cena series last year followed by a couple classics at Rumble and Mania this year. Arguably not much more greatness here than a Volk Han, but on the other hand probably a lot more than some people touted recently like Gino Hernandez, Pat O'Connor or others with limited assets on tape. I could sell myself very highly on him and probably just as easily make a case against him, which means we'll likely go top 50 but it remains to be seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 His post comeback work has been hits and misses and only produced a small handful of matches. His first run had stuff like those fucking terrible Angle matches, the Goldberg fiasco and the horrible no-good japan stint. Granted he was a huge talent, is a spectacular attraction now and had a few good matches, but I don't see how he cracks a Top 100 unless you want to count his UFC impact which is like voting for Angle based on his medal. I'm not even sure he's better than Naoya Ogawa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 His post comeback work has been hits and misses and only produced a small handful of matches. His first run had stuff like those fucking terrible Angle matches, the Goldberg fiasco and the horrible no-good japan stint. Granted he was a huge talent, is a spectacular attraction now and had a few good matches, but I don't see how he cracks a Top 100 unless you want to count his UFC impact which is like voting for Angle based on his medal. I'm not even sure he's better than Naoya Ogawa. Granted, that's one hell of a cherry picking, but find me an Ogawa match better than Lesnar/Eddy or Lesnar/Reigns and I'll believe you, because while he might have been in some heated matches, I don't think Ogawa was ever in a good singles match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I think the 1999 Ogawa/Hashimoto match and Ogawa/Kawada are better than any match Brock has been in. Ogawa is actually a similiar case to Brock where he has been a part timer for most of his career and similiar to post-comeback Bock with the german suplex replaced by judo throws and his matches are smarter. Now Hash and Kawada are better opponents than Brock has had but Ogawa also figured out how to get good matches out of guys like Mark Coleman or Tadao Yasuda and has an enjoyable tag run teaming with Hashimoto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I'm not even sure he's better than Naoya Ogawa. To be fair, Ogawa was amazing and turning Ogawa into a great worker is another strong argument for why Hashimoto is #1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 How many average matches did Ogawa have against people who aren't top 10 GOAT candidates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Crackers Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 I think the 1999 Ogawa/Hashimoto match and Ogawa/Kawada are better than any match Brock has been in. Ogawa is actually a similiar case to Brock where he has been a part timer for most of his career and similiar to post-comeback Bock with the german suplex replaced by judo throws and his matches are smarter. Now Hash and Kawada are better opponents than Brock has had but Ogawa also figured out how to get good matches out of guys like Mark Coleman or Tadao Yasuda and has an enjoyable tag run teaming with Hashimoto.I agree with all of this. You can add the Josh Barnett match to that list as well. Those Ogawa matches aren't all against super workers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parties Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Brock is another very borderline option who will be quite low on my list if he makes it. He is discussed so much nowadays that he is both underrated and overrated. His post-2012 run has been hit or miss, but the hits have contained three of the best matches in company history, including one that main evented Mania and is one of the 2-3 best matches in WM history. More importantly, this thread inspired me to go watch Ogawa-Kawada for the first time in years. I don't know if it's better than Lesnar-Reigns, but goddamn was Ogawa awesome when he was in his zone. And it made me love Kawada again after a long while of being kind of on autopilot in my esteem for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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