soup23 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Where do we think Joe's quality dropped? Was it when he left ROH exclusively for TNA? I know some people really dig the Angle series in TNA but I haven't seen that stuff except the cage match when it aired. If JOe has from 2002-2007 of high quality output that is a nice area that really is comparable with someone like Tully for stuff we have on tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted December 26, 2015 Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 I feel like some of the latest Samoa Joe stuff in NXT has put him over-the-top for me & he'll be on the bottom of my list. No one was better, in my opinion, in 2005. His ROH run was a lot of fun. As has been mentioned, there's some hidden gems for his TNA run but he mostly felt like he wasn't really wanting to be there. It came across that way onscreen. Still, his Finn Bàlor feud & their NXT: Takeover London match put him on the bottom of the list for me. Gotta give some love to Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted February 5, 2016 Report Share Posted February 5, 2016 Joe is a guy who was so cool, so unique and so great during his peak that I don't really mind that he drifted into nothingness in TNA for a while there. I blame TNA for that, not him, and I think him immediately looking so much better once he stepped foot in NXT bears that out. Joe had something about him, that je ne sais quoi that makes him stand out from everyone else around him, makes him so attractive. I was just talking about it with Hokuto, and Joe definitely had it in the mid-00s. When he came into TNA and went on that initial run...it's so hard to explain with a straight face now, but back then it felt like a real moment in time, a chance for TNA to make something of itself. Joe brought that sense of being a genuine attraction. That whole body of work from 2004-06 is really immense. He elevated basically any match he was in with his aura. You could watch him beat the shit out of just about anyone. His ROH Title run was great, I think things like those Punk matches more than hold up. I love the Kobashi match. And that first 18 months in TNA was so super, with AJ, Daniels, and the rest of the XD crew just banging out hit after hit. It was all built around Joe's ascension, and it was so cool to enjoy that before the rug was pulled out. Even after that point, there's still good stuff to be had. Joe vs Monty Brown vs Rhino is the greatest random three-way brawl you've ever seen. He had a great PPV match with Christian in 2007 sometime. I don't like their initial feud, but I do like the Joe vs Angle Lockdown 2008 match, where they go all faux-MMA and give you another glimpse of a future that TNA might have had. And the Aries match from 2012 is awesome. Now that he's in NXT there's stuff like that random Ciampa match which shows what he's still capable of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 I'd be shocked if I wasn't the high vote on Joe. Top 40 guy for me. His peak stuff from 2003-2006 is insane. 2005 Joe is one of the best years for any wrestler ever. Great as a dominant heel and a prideful ace. Booking and lack of motivation killed him post-2006, but he would still show moments of greatness here and there. The 2008 Lockdown match with Angle, the 2008 Sting match, the 2012 Aries match, and the 2015 Elgin matches are probably the best example of post-prime Joe. His case, to me, is on peak. Very few guys with a higher peak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woof Posted March 16, 2016 Report Share Posted March 16, 2016 I actually have Joe sitting comfortably in the low 30's, InYourCase, which just goes to prove there's always somebody out there who's got a guy ranked higher than you. I'm sure someone else will beat me. Anyway, I'm not really the guy to try and influence people (especially at this late stage), but I figured I'd throw up a list of Joe's ****+ matches, at least according to my database (not necessarily my personal rankings). I have nothing on his trips to Japan, so if there's good stuff there I've missed it. 2002.10.05 ROH Low Ki vs Samoa Joe 2002.11.09 ROH Christopher Daniels/Donovan Morgan/Samoa Joe vs Doug Williams/Homicide/Low Ki 2003.11.01 ROH Christopher Daniels vs CM Punk vs Samoa Joe vs Steve Corino 2003.11.28 ROH AJ Styles/Samoa Joe vs Jay Briscoe/Mark Briscoe 2004.02.14 ROH BJ Whitmer vs Dan Maff vs Low Ki vs Samoa Joe 2004.03.13 ROH Jay Briscoe vs Samoa Joe [steel Cage] 2004.04.23 ROH Homicide vs Samoa Joe 2004.06.12 ROH CM Punk vs Samoa Joe 2004.06.24 ROH Austin Aries vs Bryan Danielson vs Colt Cabana vs Homicide vs Mark Briscoe vs Samoa Joe [sOTF Match] 2004.07.23 ROH Homicide vs Samoa Joe 2004.09.17 IWA-MS Roderick Strong vs Samoa Joe 2004.09.18 IWA-MS AJ Styles vs Bryan Danielson vs Samoa Joe 2004.09.18 IWA-MS Nigel McGuinness vs Samoa Joe 2004.10.02 ROH Bryan Danielson vs Samoa Joe 2004.10.15 ROH Rocky Romero vs Samoa Joe 2004.10.16 ROH CM Punk vs Samoa Joe 2004.11.06 ROH Bryan Danielson/Low Ki vs Jushin Liger/Samoa Joe 2004.12.04 ROH CM Punk vs Samoa Joe 2004.12.26 ROH Austin Aries vs Samoa Joe 2005.02.26 ROH Austin Aries vs Samoa Joe 2005.04.16 ROH Alex Shelley vs Colt Cabana vs Nigel McGuinness vs Samoa Joe [Double Stakes Match] 2005.05.07 ROH Jay Lethal vs Samoa Joe [Pure Wrestling Match] 2005.05.13 ROH Delirious vs Ebeteroh vs Jack Evans vs Samoa Joe 2005.06.04 ROH James Gibson vs Samoa Joe [Pure Wrestling Match] 2005.06.11 IWA-MS Necro Butcher vs Samoa Joe 2005.07.08 ROH Austin Aries vs Homicide vs James Gibson vs Samoa Joe 2005.07.09 ROH Austin Aries vs Samoa Joe [Pure Wrestling Match] 2005.07.17 TNA Chris Sabin vs Samoa Joe 2005.08.12 ROH Christopher Daniels vs CM Punk vs James Gibson vs Samoa Joe 2005.08.14 TNA AJ Styles vs Samoa Joe 2005.09.11 TNA AJ Styles vs Christopher Daniels vs Samoa Joe 2005.10.01 ROH Kenta Kobashi vs Samoa Joe 2005.10.02 ROH Homicide/Kenta Kobashi vs Low Ki/Samoa Joe 2005.10.25 TNA Alex Shelley/Christopher Daniels/Samoa Joe vs AJ Styles/Austin Aries/Sanjay Dutt 2005.11.05 ROH Christopher Daniels vs Samoa Joe 2005.11.13 TNA Alex Shelley/Christopher Daniels/Roderick Strong/Samoa Joe vs Austin Aries/Chris Sabin/Matt Bentley/Sanjay Dutt [Elimination X Match] 2005.12.11 TNA AJ Styles vs Samoa Joe 2006.01.15 TNA Christopher Daniels vs Samoa Joe 2006.02.12 TNA AJ Styles vs Christopher Daniels vs Samoa Joe 2006.03.25 ROH Bryan Danielson/Samoa Joe vs Kenta/Naomichi Marafuji 2006.03.30 ROH Christopher Daniels vs Samoa Joe 2006.04.11 TNA Christopher Daniels vs Samoa Joe 2006.08.05 ROH Bryan Danielson vs Samoa Joe 2006.08.13 TNA Monty Brown vs Rhino vs Samoa Joe [Falls Count Anywhere] 2006.11.19 TNA Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe 2006.12.10 TNA Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe 2007.02.16 ROH Samoa Joe vs Takeshi Morishima 2007.03.11 TNA Christian Cage vs Samoa Joe 2007.04.15 TNA Abyss/AJ Styles/Christian Cage/Scott Steiner/Tomko vs Jeff Jarrett/Kurt Angle/Rhino/Samoa Joe/Sting [Lethal Lockdown] 2007.06.17 TNA AJ Styles vs Chris Harris vs Christian Cage vs Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe [King Of The Mountain] 2007.10.13 TNA Christian Cage vs Samoa Joe 2008.04.13 TNA Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe [six Sides Of Steel] 2009.06.21 TNA AJ Styles vs Jeff Jarrett vs Kurt Angle vs Mick Foley vs Samoa Joe [King Of The Mountain] 2009.11.15 TNA AJ Styles vs Christopher Daniels vs Samoa Joe 2010.02.14 TNA AJ Styles vs Samoa Joe 2012.05.13 TNA AJ Styles vs Samoa Joe 2012.06.10 TNA Austin Aries vs Samoa Joe 2012.07.08 TNA Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe 2015.03.13 ROH ACH vs Samoa Joe 2015.03.28 ROH Kyle O'Reilly vs Samoa Joe 2015.10.07 NXT Baron Corbin/Rhyno vs Finn Balor/Samoa Joe 2015.12.16 NXT Finn Balor vs Samoa Joe 2016.03.09* NXT Sami Zayn vs Samoa Joe [best of 3 Falls] So yeah, there's a pretty nasty dropoff once you get to 2007, thanks mostly to TNA's horrible booking and the lack of any reviews for stuff Joe may have been doing elsewhere at the time. I did poke around on the scores for his TNA run over that time and there's a LOT of stuff in the *** range. He had pockets of shit here and there (the tag run with Magnus against Crimon & Matt Morgan provided about what you'd expect and went on for WAY too long), but for the most part he was serviceable without being exceptional thanks mostly to his position on the card. Looking back though you see a guy who had a phenomenal peak run from 2004-2006. He worked guys of all sizes and styles, producing high quality work with all. One of the things that really jumps out me about his career is his versatility. He could work technical classics (his run with the Pure title has a number of them), wild brawls (see Homicide fued or the Necro Butcher match), stiff strong style (vs Low Ki and Kobashi), or a more high-paced junior style (his TNA X-Division run). He worked long matches (the Punk series and the recent Zayn match) and plenty of furious sprints. He also seemed to really know how to play his role without ever not being Joe. The ROH 4-Way against Delirious, Ebeteroh & Jack Evans is a great example at it was a total comedy match that Joe managed to somehow fit into without suddenly becoming "comedy Joey". I also note that he stood out strongly in a lot of multi-man matches, which is not an easy thing to do. Whether you love them or hate them you have to acknowledge that they are a big part of new millennium booking and they usually fail to live up to the level of the assembled talent, but Joe made his count. I'm a big proponent of giving guys their due for managing to find a way to entertain when they're handicapped by the company they work for (be it booking or just style). The All Japan guys were blessed to rarely have to work anything more than straight-up matches (no gimmicks, I mean). Some of them might struggle if saddled with American style booking, so it's something I always keep in mind. I have Joe pretty high because he along with Styles, Danielson, and Punk got me through the mid-2000's when the WWE was having some very lean years and I wasn't yet into the Japanese stuff. ROH kept wrestling alive for me over that span and Joe was the lynchpin of that company during their height. His return to form in NXT makes me believe he was better than his late years TNA run let him be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Recency bias be damned, but him having the type of run he's having right now considering his peak was damn near a decade ago really does make an impact for me. He was one of those guys that was a personal favorite pick for me where he would be in my bottom five, but I think now I feel better about him being in the lower part of my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clayton Jones Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Great list Woof. Those Homicide matches get criminally overlooked, that feud was one of my favorites that year. I also completely forgot about the Morishima match which is such a great departure from the NOAH style for Morishima. It felt like a culmination of all the 90s NJPW heavyweight Joe had emulated over the years truly becoming his own. A blind spot in your list is his PWG run, which I don't think was extensive but had two more very good bordering great matches VS Danielson, and two matches VS Super Dragon which are must watches. The first one is great and one of my favorite matches from either guys career as it's Dragon VS an outsider monster done better than maybe PWG ever did otherwise. The rematch is much more even which a lot of people didn't like about it at the time but I still thought it was very good.Also strangely absent on your list are his matches during the CZW feud. With the Cage of Death being more storyline driven with his role I could see leaving off, but the 6 man from the 100th show of him Pearce & Whitmer VS Hero/Dragon/Necro is a classic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Also strangely absent on your list are his matches during the CZW feud. With the Cage of Death being more storyline driven with his role I could see leaving off, but the 6 man from the 100th show of him Pearce & Whitmer VS Hero/Dragon/Necro is a classic. Man, Joe's performance in the 100th Show main event is unreal. I need to go back and watch that soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woof Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 A blind spot in your list is his PWG run, which I don't think was extensive but had two more very good bordering great matches VS Danielson, and two matches VS Super Dragon which are must watches. The first one is great and one of my favorite matches from either guys career as it's Dragon VS an outsider monster done better than maybe PWG ever did otherwise. The rematch is much more even which a lot of people didn't like about it at the time but I still thought it was very good. Also strangely absent on your list are his matches during the CZW feud. With the Cage of Death being more storyline driven with his role I could see leaving off, but the 6 man from the 100th show of him Pearce & Whitmer VS Hero/Dragon/Necro is a classic. Yeah, I actually just realized this morning my ROH research stopped a couple of months into 2006, so I have lot of those matches still to add. Working on that hole today. I also don't have much in the way of PWG catalogued. Reviews for their shows were pretty scarce back in the day (at least on the sites I visited), so if anybody can point me in the direction of where some could be found, I'd appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/33557-project-rewatch-pwg-the-good-shit/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woof Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/33557-project-rewatch-pwg-the-good-shit/ Thanks. I've been meaning to go through Supersonic's Good Shit series and add his ratings. Guess I should start with PWG since that's my biggest blindspot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clayton Jones Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Now that my memory is sufficiently jogged this also brings to mind some really good IWAMS matches VS Aries and Hero, the Hero one in particular being something special with the kind of reaction they get out of 50 or so fans for the entire duration. Also a pair of good matches VS Strong in FIP back when they were working in front of mostly empty seats as well and Strong was still a ways off as a singles wrestler. Which then brings to mind a great Joe/Whitmer VS Aries/Strong tag title match in ROH, which leads to a very good Strong singles match that shows a great progression. And all of that also reminds me that Joe has one of the 5 or so best BJ Whitmer singles matches ever to his credit on the first show of the CZW feud, Hell Freezes Over.And then I just noticed you only have one of the two Lethal matches, I'm not sure which date you have listed but both Manhattan Mayhem and Steel Cage Warfare are very good, bordering great matches. I also just assumed you had the impromptu Manhattan Mayhem main event which treads that "great angle, good match" territory but also builds his resume in terms of versatility. And then you have the other match w/Lethal VS Ki/Cide at Punk's last show which is maybe the best of any of the matches I've mentioned in this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parties Posted April 3, 2016 Report Share Posted April 3, 2016 Joe is not on my list and when I really think about the montage of good times, he may end up being a regrettable absence. It's sparked by having the miracle Balor match, but I was also just thinking about how Cassandro is on my list because he's the best live performer I've ever seen (having caught him a few times now). But Joe-Kobashi is the best match that I've seen live, and when you add it to a strong NXT run, being the best TNA worker ever, and his top stuff in ROH/indies, that's a perfectly suitable top 100 resume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubbymark Posted April 3, 2016 Report Share Posted April 3, 2016 I really did not want to rank Samoa Joe in part because I wasn't as high on his ROH stuff as I was of the opinion he was the beneficiary of Meltzer hype. He started off good in TNA then fell off a cliff. But his NXT stuff, including a last minute spurt at Takeover: Dallas got him to sneak into the bottom part of my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Joe also has one of the more under rated fat man topes. Taue's tope was always interesting since he was so lanky and I don't think Porky did a regular tope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotJayTabb Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Joe was a last minute placing for me. It was towards the end when I placed a few 00's indy guys, and I realised I'd overlooked him entirely. He's my #99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 Looks like we can put a bow on his entire career at this stage. Hell of a comeback from 2015-17, and some interesting stuff here and there after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reel Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 He said recently he plans on coming back, so we'll see if and how that comes about. I don't know how much he has left in the tank, but I thought some of the stuff he did at the beginning of last year, where he got up from commentary to fight AOP and some of the Rollins stuff, was a lot of fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobogo Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 Joe's WWE run has been so frustrating. Besides all the injuries at the worst times, his revival was so huge compared to where he was from probably 2009-2015 where he was just completely out of shape, motivation, and passion, to the years too late jump to WWE and then.....he's doing incredible work but none of the matches really matched the level at which he was working. Be it with Balor, Nakamura, AJ, Roman, Rollins, Zayn. I can't figure out what the deal was, but nothing ever seemed to ramp up no matter how good Joe's work individually was in any given match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 Samoa Joe from 2004-2006 is one of the best wrestlers I've ever seen, and the case is only expanded upon when you have a year or two before and after that peak in which he's merely great or very very very good. Yes, so much of the TNA work was bad. Like, unbelievably bad. But given how strong that peak was, and how much fun he's been post-TNA when things lined up (Joe's fun 2015 ROH tour, the AJ feud, the summer 2017 Raw title picture), it's not just all peak. Really though, I don't know that any wrestler anywhere ever has had as good a year as Samoa Joe did in 2005. If I find myself saying that about someone, I don't think it's at all reasonable to leave them off a GWE list, even if it's in the eighties or nineties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Rock Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 His WWE run wasn't great, but I have a lot of love for his match with Brock. He also had some pretty good matches with Roman and I honestly didn't hate the feud with A.J. But yeah, the bulk of his case rests on his early 2000's run. And that's probably still enough to round out the bottom tier of the ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clayton Jones Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 I loved the first AJ match in WWE but I remember the feud falling off hard after that. When I start up on him that's probably where I'll begin. I also have a soft spot for the Brock feud and remember really liking the 2/3 falls Zayn match. Joe is a lock for my list and likely top half but his placement has a lot of wiggle room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microstatistics Posted April 28, 2021 Report Share Posted April 28, 2021 Another guy who I ranked 30-50 spots too low in 2016. As people have mentioned, one of the most impressive peaks ever, which alone should be enough to get him into my Top 50. But he has a respectable amount of good stuff both before and after as well that boosts his case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 I had Joe at number 77 in 2016 and that feels okay to me. It might even be a little low, as last year I went back and watched some of his peak run and it held up much better than I would've expected. Running through my list up to this point I've mentioned a few times that I'll favour a strong peak over a relative lack of longevity, and if I'm voting for Rick Rude then I'm voting for Samoa Joe. I don't know if he was the flat out best wrestler in the world in any of the years he was at his peak, but he was at least close and I think he has a solid case for being the #1 over that cumulative 2-3 year period (~'04-'06). I don't really have much interest in going back to the Punk broadways, but I did watch the hour-long match with Danielson from 2006 (Fight of the Century) a while back and thought it was shockingly great. He came off like a legit badass with genuine star power in the ROH/CZW feud and he might've been the star of the wild six-man from The 100th Show, which is just about the best match in ROH history. And then there's stuff like the Necro match where he feels like a Terminator set loose in a crack den, which sort of speaks to a broader skill of being an indie invader rolling into IWA-MS or PWG as modern day touring attraction (or modern day for the mid-2000s). I haven't watched much of the TNA run after he left ROH and I can't see myself changing that any time soon, but he has some stuff from the WWE run that bolsters his case. He probably stays on the list in 2026. SAMOA JOE YOU SHOULD WATCH: v Jay Briscoe (ROH At Our Best, 3/13/04) v Necro Butcher (IWA-MS, 6/11/05) v Kenta Kobashi (ROH Joe vs. Kobashi, 10/1/05) w/Adam Pearce & BJ Whitmer v Chris Hero, Super Dragon & Necro Butcher (ROH The 100th Show, 4/22/06) v Bryan Danielson (ROH Fight of the Century, 8/5/06) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Rock Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 That trios match looks great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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