Bill Demott is not a good human Thread

[C.S.]

Who did DeMott successfully train? NXT is great as a finishing school for established indy guys, but who have they built up from scratch?

 

Baron Corbin? Yeah, I know...

 

Did Charlotte start with NXT? Bayley? Edit: Even if they did, I believe the women are trained separately anyway - by Sara Del Ray.

 

Either way, I don't want to look like I'm defending Demott - I'm not - and he's gone now anyway.

 

It's worth pointing out that HHH was one of the biggest critics of Cornette and OVW on the grounds that someone who never drew money himself can't teach others how to draw money.

 

This is the first I've heard of that, and it's a weird thing to say about Cornette of all people, who definitely drew money.

[Coffey]

Well, I know Bayley didn't start in NXT. She was Davina Rose & wrestled in Shimmer that I know of.

[flyonthewall2983]

Apparently DeMott is pleading "no contest" to the allegations but is stepping down

 

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/niv902

 

Ever the good employee. He'll crop up somewhere else.

[Strand Peanut]

Depends. If WWE thinks a lawsuit may be coming.. I wouldn't be so sure.

 

But I'd be surprised if anything happens.

[Childs]

Bill DeMott is a nut job who should be fired . All of his victims should sue this clown and the WWE. Why is DeMott even a trainer to begin with ? He the Laughing Man and Crash for god's sake. This guy never drew a dime , yet he is supposed to train future main eventers . I guess Ricky Steamboat was not available.

 

I'm not defending DeMott, but this is not a good standard for criticism. Lots and lots of people are better at teaching a given skill than performing it. See most of the great coaches and managers in the history of sports.

[The Thread Killer]

Not really on topic. NXT has guys like Feral Deviit, El Generico , Kevin Steen , Kenta and PAC under contract. These guys have about 60 years experience with NJPW , NOAH , ROH and DG . How much training do they need ?

 

That's an interesting question and a fair point.

 

I used to write a column for 411, and I wrote one called "Remember The Renegade" about Rick Williams who played The Renegade in WCW. (At the time I was fairly proud of it, but when I read it now, it makes me cringe.) It was about how WCW made Rick Williams famous, then basically hung him out to dry, and he ended up committing suicide.

 

Anyhow, I got an email from an independent wrestler who was actually friends with Rick Williams during his days as "Reo Lord of the Jungle." This guy loved my column and thanked me for writing about Rick Williams. We struck up an online friendship. During the course of our relationship, this person got signed by the WWE developmental system.

 

At the request of the individual, I will not disclose their name. I can only say that they were in the WWE developmental system for a significant period of time, they did end up getting called up, but were used only sparingly on the "B shows" and after a while they ended up getting released. This person went back to the indies where he is still somewhat active today, although he maintains a day job so he is not as active as he once was. A lot of you may not have even heard of them, although some of you probably have. I still chat with them on an infrequent basis to this day. (Wish them Merry Christmas, etc.)

 

When he got signed, I asked him why guys who already knew how to wrestle and in some cases had been doing it for years, had to be "trained."

 

He said there were two reasons...

 

First, since the demise of WCW, ECW and anything else remotely resembling competition, WWE does not want to bring in any Professional Wrestler who has any kind of fame or buzz from any other organization other than WWE. They don't want you thinking you deserve recognition based on anything you did yourself. THEY will make you a star, there is no way you could already be one. In fact, if you came into WWE developmental with any sort of "name" it would actually work against you. The first thing they would do is give you the "just because you can make 200 marks chant for you in a high school gym in the middle of nowhere, it doesn't mean you're ready for the big time" speech.

 

WWE honestly thinks that in order for anybody to be successful and get over, they have to be remade by the WWE, which includes retraining, and being renamed. That serves two purposes - firstly they can take credit for your success with the "you were nobody until we made you" line, and secondly they end up owning your name so you can't use it elsewhere. This is why 99.9 percent of guys in WWE developmental end up being given a generic name, even if their present name is perfectly serviceable. Your birth name could really be Rick Strong, and they'd still rename you Mike McRough, because in their minds, Rick Strong was a nobody and Mike McRough belongs to THEM.

 

I was shocked CM Punk was allowed to remain CM Punk. My friend told me that WWE pushed for him to drop the "CM" and just be "Punk" but Punk refused and Heyman backed him up, and Heyman was in charge of OVW at that time. Daniel Bryan is a perfect example. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with Bryan Danielson as a ring name, except WWE didn't give it to him. Apparently, Bryan is much more of a "go along to get along" type guy, so he agreed to change his name, and gladly did his drills and accepted his training, even though by the time he ended up in WWE developmental he had already been in countless classic matches...more than the people training him had ever had.

 

Secondly, one of the things they drill into you is that "less is more." My friend told me that one of the guest trainers he worked out for was Pat Patterson, and that after meeting Pat Patterson his attitude changed dramatically. He pointed out that he (and many of his fellow wrestlers) had been executing high risk moves for little to no pay, a lot of the time when it wasn't even being filmed - but that in WWE developmental they teach you another way.

 

Apparently Pat Patterson showed the trainees tape of crowds going apeshit for big name WWE stars executing moves that were in no way risky - the "people's elbow" is a great example - and his point was that you don't have to risk your health or the health of your opponent if you can train the crowds to accept low risk moves as something special. I guess they also use The Undertaker as an example of this philosophy...if you look at a lot of his work, especially in his early WWF years, he barely moved, he never sold, but he got over like gangbusters. I guess they LOVE to point out that before they got a hold of him, he was just Mean Mark, one half of The Skyscrapers, but after they transformed him he became one of the biggest stars of all time.

 

My friend told me that in WWE developmental he also learned that IF you were going to bust out a "highspot" then it had better be special, it better be on TV or a PPV, and most importantly it had better be caught on camera. A lot of people call this "WWE style" which is basically getting rid of high risk or flashy offense and trying to make basic moves into big moves.

 

I recently saw an interview with Fergal Devitt/Finn Balor. He said that when he came into WWE developmental he thought he pretty much knew it all, but he had no idea how to work facing a TV camera. I guess there is a "hard camera" on all WWE TV shows, and one of the things they train you for and drill into your head is every move you make including mugging for the camera has to be facing a certain way.

 

Even a guy like KENTA is not immune to this attitude. Sure, he has been a pro for 15 years, and was a huge star in Japan...but that style is too high impact and he still doesn't know WWE style, proper WWE psychology, or how to work to the camera. I'm not saying I agree with the attitude, but that is apparently what they think. In a lot of cases, it is almost like a cult mentality, they want to break you down, "untrain" you and then retrain you in the "right" way. And if you do succeed, it's because of what they taught you and what they gave you.

[Parties]

 

Bill DeMott is a nut job who should be fired . All of his victims should sue this clown and the WWE. Why is DeMott even a trainer to begin with ? He the Laughing Man and Crash for god's sake. This guy never drew a dime , yet he is supposed to train future main eventers . I guess Ricky Steamboat was not available.

 

I'm not defending DeMott, but this is not a good standard for criticism. Lots and lots of people are better at teaching a given skill than performing it. See most of the great coaches and managers in the history of sports.

 

 

And conversely, Michael Jordan is one of the worst managers in NBA history. I love Ricky Steamboat, but being great at something doesn't mean you have the patience and communicative skill to make others great at it.

[The Thread Killer]

I have to say I do not agree with the concept that in order to train somebody, you had to have "drawn money" yourself.

 

Look at some of the guys who have drawn money. Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair spring to mind. Here are a couple of guys who have no concept whatsoever of the truth. None. I once saw Hulk Hogan claim with a straight face that Andre The Giant weighed almost 900 pounds when Hogan slammed him at WM3, and that Andre died "shortly after." Neither of these facts are anywhere even close to being true, but Hogan has no issue saying them. Ric Flair gave more than one interview where he claimed he was at the arena the night Bruiser Brody was murdered, even though he was not in Puerto Rico that night, and it can be proven.

 

My point is, both of these guys are top names who drew a ton of money, but if you put them in front of a class of new trainees, you couldn't believe a damn thing that came out of their mouths. But hey...they drew money!

 

Conversely, look at a guy like Dominic DeNucci. I am not much of a Foley fan anymore, but if you read the chapters in his book about his training with DeNucci, you certainly get the impression that he worked hard, learned the basic fundamentals, and came out of DeNucci's school better off for having trained with him. Should Foley not have listened to DeNucci because he never drew money (aside from when he was teamed with Bruno, I guess?)

 

Baseball is a great comparison. In my opinion, Ty Cobb was the greatest hitter of all time. He was also pretty much a washout as a human being, and when he managed a team, they never won the division and most of his players hated his guts. Here is a guy many people consider the greatest of all time, but he was unable to transfer his knowledge to others.

 

But if you look at a guy like Buck Showalter, he never even made it to the Major Leagues during his career, but he has a proven track record of being able to manage and really help younger talent. Last year, he won Manager of the Year and took a team that didn't even contend the year before to the ALDS. Should the players have said "I'm sorry, you never even played in the Major Leagues...I'm not listening to you. We should hire Barry Bonds!"

 

EDIT: I was posting this at the same time Parties was posting his response, both of us basically presenting the same argument. He just managed to do it more succicntly and efficiently than I did.

[The Thread Killer]

 

Apparently DeMott is pleading "no contest" to the allegations but is stepping down

 

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/niv902

 

Ever the good employee. He'll crop up somewhere else.

 

 

We all know how they are with this kind of stuff. I'd bet hard money that they asked him to resign, and told him they'd call him when the storm blows over. They have done this many times with other guys, Fit Finlay being the most recent example I can think of, off the top of my head. They obviously just want this to go away for now, and then they will quietly slip him in somewhere a year from now.

[The Thread Killer]

 

I recently read all three of Jericho's books, and his change in personality and demeanor over the course of the books is alarming. He's quite the asshole now, and his defending DeMott and then backing off is right in character.

 

His third book is especially bad in this regard. He comes across as such an obnoxious, drunken asshole. I don't blame Punk for distancing himself from Jericho.

 

I know, right?

 

I could not BELIEVE how bad Jericho comes off in that book. How could he not have read that before it went to press and said "Wow, I'm really obnoxious and unlikeable!" I used to like Jericho but he sounds like an awful person now. It reminds me of how I was a huge Foley fan from when I first saw him during his first run on WCW, up until Have a Nice Day. Then from Foley Is Good onward? Not so much.

[JerryvonKramer]

Conversely, look at a guy like Dominic DeNucci. I am not much of a Foley fan anymore, but if you read the chapters in his book about his training with DeNucci, you certainly get the impression that he worked hard, learned the basic fundamentals, and came out of DeNucci's school better off for having trained with him. Should Foley not have listened to DeNucci because he never drew money (aside from when he was teamed with Bruno, I guess?)

Don't want to nitpick, but Denucci probably drew as much money in Australia as Foley did in his whole career. He was also a staple headliner in North East secondary markets in the late 60s and early 70s before settling into the Gatekeeper role most people know him for.

 

I'd be interested to see, adjusted for inflation, who drew more money in their career, Denucci or Foley. I don't think it's a slamdunk for Foley, Dominic was huge in the Aussie WCW.

[sek69]

Continuing the baseball analogy, as a Pirates fan it's been amazing to see the effect Clint Hurdle has had on the team. He's a guy who was on the cover of Sports Illustrated as a can't miss future star, had a middling career that was in part tanked by alcoholism, and has ended up with a managing career that has bordered on being a miracle worker. He got Colorado to the World Series and got the Pirates from doormats famous for a 20+ year losing streak into back-to-back playoff appearances. One thing that everyone has said along the way is how his handling of the players has been a big part of the reason why.

 

I know it's an alpha male, tiny-dick macho man thing but it's not breaking news to realize being an abusive asshole isn't the most effective way to train people. Any time I hear of a coach in any sport acting this way, I just assume it's because the person involved just doesn't know how to coach properly.

[Mini Bennett]

 

 

Not really on topic. NXT has guys like Feral Deviit, El Generico , Kevin Steen , Kenta and PAC under contract. These guys have about 60 years experience with NJPW , NOAH , ROH and DG . How much training do they need ?

Daniel Bryan is a perfect example. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with Bryan Danielson as a ring name, except WWE didn't give it to him. Apparently, Bryan is much more of a "go along to get along" type guy, so he agreed to change his name, and gladly did his drills and accepted his training, even though by the time he ended up in WWE developmental he had already been in countless classic matches...more than the people training him had ever had.

Except Bryan Danielson wasn't signed to a developmental contract the 2nd time around. He spent four weeks working with Low-Ki in FCW to keep himself sharp prior to his debut on WWE television. He also only worked NXT TVs and the occasional RAW during that time period, unlike the other NXT guys who spent the rest of their time back in Florida.

 

The majority of changes Bryan made to his act were on the main roster in front of large audiences, something the current crop of NXT guys don't have to deal with.

[funkdoc]

funny, sek, i made a lot of those same points when bringing up demott as one of my least favorite wrestling people in that other thread.

 

it's interesting to see how even in the NFL, the whole "screaming megalomaniac" coaching style is losing ground. tony dungy seemed to play a big part in getting that going, and now we see pete carroll using what he learned in california (positive thinking, meditation, etc.) with great success. i used greg schiano & josh mcdaniels as the analogy for demott...schiano is obviously the better fit in terms of blatant asshole behavior, but mcdaniels ran off better players and drafted a worse QB.

[Parties]

Alvarez is saying that Jason Albert/Tensai/A-Train/Giant Bernard is expected to be Demott's successor as head trainer. I'd say that's a mild upgrade from a workrate perspective. And better still, it might take him off NXT commentary.

[The Thread Killer]

 

Conversely, look at a guy like Dominic DeNucci. I am not much of a Foley fan anymore, but if you read the chapters in his book about his training with DeNucci, you certainly get the impression that he worked hard, learned the basic fundamentals, and came out of DeNucci's school better off for having trained with him. Should Foley not have listened to DeNucci because he never drew money (aside from when he was teamed with Bruno, I guess?)

Don't want to nitpick, but Denucci probably drew as much money in Australia as Foley did in his whole career. He was also a staple headliner in North East secondary markets in the late 60s and early 70s before settling into the Gatekeeper role most people know him for.

 

I'd be interested to see, adjusted for inflation, who drew more money in their career, Denucci or Foley. I don't think it's a slamdunk for Foley, Dominic was huge in the Aussie WCW.

 

 

That's not nitpicking. I did not know that. Interesting. I suppose I should have picked another wrestler who trained people that I thought didn't draw money.

 

What about The Unpredictable Johnny Rodz?

[Mini Bennett]

Alvarez is saying that Jason Albert/Tensai/A-Train/Giant Bernard is expected to be Demott's successor as head trainer. I'd say that's a mild upgrade from a workrate perspective. And better still, it might take him off NXT commentary.

Bernard is a huge, huge step up from Demott. It's not even close.

[cm funk]

Continuing the baseball analogy, as a Pirates fan it's been amazing to see the effect Clint Hurdle has had on the team. He's a guy who was on the cover of Sports Illustrated as a can't miss future star, had a middling career that was in part tanked by alcoholism, and has ended up with a managing career that has bordered on being a miracle worker. He got Colorado to the World Series and got the Pirates from doormats famous for a 20+ year losing streak into back-to-back playoff appearances. One thing that everyone has said along the way is how his handling of the players has been a big part of the reason why.

 

I know it's an alpha male, tiny-dick macho man thing but it's not breaking news to realize being an abusive asshole isn't the most effective way to train people. Any time I hear of a coach in any sport acting this way, I just assume it's because the person involved just doesn't know how to coach properly.

 

There are so many examples of this in sports, and in wrestling

 

Billy Beane never made it as a player but he turned into one of the greatest team architects of the modern era

 

Bill Belichick played at Wesleyan which was d2 or d3 at the time......arguably the greatest coach/architect in NFL history....at least in the conversation with Lombardi and Walsh (neither of whom had storied athletic careers as players)

 

I could list dozens of the best NCAA basketball coaches of all-time who were fringe players and never made it in the pros

 

In the NBA a lot of the GOAT coaches were role player types. Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, Rick Adelman etc. etc.

 

And the same thing with pro-wrestling. A lot of the best trainers are guys who had nice careers but they were never the best worker or the biggest star at any given time. There's guys who 'never drew a dime' who've trained guys who drew many many dimes, and conversely there's guys who drew a lot of money who can't train guys for shit

 

As for DeMott......doesn't matter that he wasn't a big star and didn't draw money in his career.....it matters that we've been hearing these stories about him being an abusive bully of a trainer for a decade and that it took WWE this long to part ways with him. I also agree that he'll likely be quietly brought back in some kind of role because they seem to love the guy. It reminds me of Michael Hayes and all the stories about him being a drunken, racist asshole that finally WWE couldn't keep ignoring, so he gets sent to rehab and sensitivity training and comes right back into the company......probably still drinking, probably still a crazy racist, sexist asshole.....but tamed a bit. I'd bet on the same thing with DeMott

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

Conversely, look at a guy like Dominic DeNucci. I am not much of a Foley fan anymore, but if you read the chapters in his book about his training with DeNucci, you certainly get the impression that he worked hard, learned the basic fundamentals, and came out of DeNucci's school better off for having trained with him. Should Foley not have listened to DeNucci because he never drew money (aside from when he was teamed with Bruno, I guess?)

Don't want to nitpick, but Denucci probably drew as much money in Australia as Foley did in his whole career. He was also a staple headliner in North East secondary markets in the late 60s and early 70s before settling into the Gatekeeper role most people know him for.

 

I'd be interested to see, adjusted for inflation, who drew more money in their career, Denucci or Foley. I don't think it's a slamdunk for Foley, Dominic was huge in the Aussie WCW.

 

That's not nitpicking. I did not know that. Interesting. I suppose I should have picked another wrestler who trained people that I thought didn't draw money.

 

What about The Unpredictable Johnny Rodz?

 

Over to my boy Kelly here, but as Java Farook he was at least a headliner in LA, and a fairly sizable star.

 

People forget that New York was a major pay-day territory and that guys like Denucci and Rodz, who settled into midcard and JTTS roles as homesteaders, had actually "made it" to an extent. As in, they didn't have to travel the country anymore looking for work. Working the opener at MSG might have got them the same amount of money as headlining in some other places. Why do you think they stayed there 15+ years? It was a cushy gig. Tito Santana also told us that Rodz was a real leader in the locker room; he was an important part of Vince Sr's setup.

[kjh]

 

 

So far he's a more abusive and less successful version of DeWayne Bruce. You'd hope Triple H would have greater aspirations than running a high-rent WCW Power Plant.

 

I'm not about to defend Demott, but hyperbolic posts like this is where it gets ridiculous.

 

1. Who the hell did Bruce successfully train? And don't say Goldberg, whose rise to stardom had very little to do with what Bruce taught him. The Regal match proves that Goldberg was pretty lost in the ring early on. Good job, DeWayne Bruce! BTW, Bruce was also an abusive tool - according to Batista's book.

 

I don't think my post was hyperbolic. I wasn't arguing that Bruce trained many great wrestlers, but he did train from scratch about a dozen wrestlers that were good enough to be quickly promoted to WCW television in pushed roles. DeMott hadn't trained one during his stint as head WWE trainer.

 

I also wasn't arguing that Bruce wasn't an abusive tool, just that he wasn't as bad as DeMott. Did anyone ever complain to WCW HR about him?

[Dylan Waco]

Worth noting that Albert is a Kowalski trainee, so it makes sense he'd have the fast track to this job in HHH's NXT.

[flyonthewall2983]

It's now being reported Bill is gone gone.

[El-P]

What about The Unpredictable Johnny Rodz?

 

 

Well, he turned out Bill Demott.

[The Thread Killer]

 

 

 

Conversely, look at a guy like Dominic DeNucci. I am not much of a Foley fan anymore, but if you read the chapters in his book about his training with DeNucci, you certainly get the impression that he worked hard, learned the basic fundamentals, and came out of DeNucci's school better off for having trained with him. Should Foley not have listened to DeNucci because he never drew money (aside from when he was teamed with Bruno, I guess?)

Don't want to nitpick, but Denucci probably drew as much money in Australia as Foley did in his whole career. He was also a staple headliner in North East secondary markets in the late 60s and early 70s before settling into the Gatekeeper role most people know him for.

 

I'd be interested to see, adjusted for inflation, who drew more money in their career, Denucci or Foley. I don't think it's a slamdunk for Foley, Dominic was huge in the Aussie WCW.

 

That's not nitpicking. I did not know that. Interesting. I suppose I should have picked another wrestler who trained people that I thought didn't draw money.

 

What about The Unpredictable Johnny Rodz?

 

Over to my boy Kelly here, but as Java Farook he was at least a headliner in LA, and a fairly sizable star.

 

People forget that New York was a major pay-day territory and that guys like Denucci and Rodz, who settled into midcard and JTTS roles as homesteaders, had actually "made it" to an extent. As in, they didn't have to travel the country anymore looking for work. Working the opener at MSG might have got them the same amount of money as headlining in some other places. Why do you think they stayed there 15+ years? It was a cushy gig. Tito Santana also told us that Rodz was a real leader in the locker room; he was an important part of Vince Sr's setup.

 

 

I am going to have to break off into my own thread, where I name random wrestlers who I think have never drawn money and operated wrestling schools...then sit back and wait for the responses:

 

"How about so-and-so?"

 

"Nope, he sold out an arena in Wichita in 1973!"

 

Larry Sharpe? Eddie Sharkey? My whole point was, I felt that guys who didn't "draw money" could still run a training school that gradulated guys who would.

[The Thread Killer]

So The Washington Post picked up this story today, and have added to the pile, talking about how DeMott also covered up sexual harassment. This doesn't seem to be blowing over like I thought it might...at least yet.