What about Flair?

[JerryvonKramer]

We know. We know you value action and a visceral, gripping feel in matches and suplexes. We even know you value cardio now. Other people here still do too, but not everyone values those things as much as they used to, as much as we were supposed to in years' past.

 

I think the story of this poll compared to the last is the freedom from old dogmas due to the rise of the post-workrate paradigm and people who have come to value smart over hard.

 

Even then you are arguing AT people who will still have him at 3 or 6 or 15 out of every wrestler ever because they still see him as the best at certain aspects. They just have come to value those aspects less than others (some of which they still rate him highly in, just not highly enough) which along with the discovery and propagation of new footage is one of the only reasons to even do a poll again.

 

So you can do another project on why workrate still matters and why our growth as viewers and people thinking about this stuff over the last 10 years is just relativistic bullshit that has no basis in reality or you can let go and accept that some people's metrics have shifted before you drive all of us insane.

I'm not too keen on your interesting use of "us" and "we" in this post Matt. Especially because you strike me as one of the more singular and unusual voices on the site.

[Matt D]

Show of hands, folks? Revaluing smart vs hard relative to 2005? Post-workrate whatever as part of the general PWO discussion over the last five years? How about minimalism? Is there a we here? I'm on the extremity of it but this is a thing, right?

[JerryvonKramer]

I recognise the trend you're talking about Matt, but surely you've read and heard enough of my reviews to know that you can't exactly pull an "us vs. them" card on me when it comes to any of that.

[GOTNW]

 

Workrate, bumping, cardio, energy, even stiffness and execution. All of those are things that a lot of us valued much more ten years ago.

Those are all great tools but plenty of wrestlers have all of them and still suck. Transitioning, match structure, struggle, selling etc. are much more important.

[Matt D]

I recognise the trend you're talking about Matt, but surely you've read and heard enough of my reviews to know that you can't exactly pull an "us vs. them" card on me when it comes to any of that.

 

I think that would be distracting from the broader point I was trying to make, Parv, so I'm happy to rephrase every "we" to a broader "people."

 

Or "some people."

 

Hell, I wrote that thing on my phone standing in line for a commuter bus.

 

Let me distill.

 

I'm saying:

 

1.) Flair still holds up well, even with all the new footage, on the 2005 metrics. I'm not seeing much argument otherwise from anyone.

2.) The 2015 metrics valued BY SOME PEOPLE maybe aren't the same as the metrics valued in 2005 and potentially (maybe even due to his strengths) Flair does not perform as well as other wrestlers in these.

3.) I don't like the idea of people being desensitized to Flair or arguing against him because it's too easy to just call him the GOAT and people want to feel different and edgy or whatever, since I think it's not a matter of that so much as a shift in values in SOME of the voting base over the last decade.

 

with the admission that "metrics" isn't quite the right word.

 

I kind of liked my first post though. This one is sort of conciliatory bullshit. I'm going to stick with that initial post and we'll just put everything I wrote right now into teeny tiny text and make it horrific comic sans.

[JerryvonKramer]

Is this your round-about way of saying that you don't think Flair was a smart worker / lacked psychology etc.? If so cool, you know where to find my counters

 

Should point out also that I don't think Flair even came top in Smarkschoice in 2006, he came 8th. A reminder:

 

1. Jumbo Tsuruta – 4,594 points - 48 votes – 14 #1 votes - 35 top 5 votes - 40 top 10 votes - VHB This Is Workrate, Smoove Luv B, gordi, Mike Oles, ElPatoume, Ditch, Wolverine, Goodhelmet, wagnerpanther, Owen, Real Man’s man, Theseus, throughsilver, Famous Mortimer # 1

2. Toshiaki Kawada – 4,477 points - 48 votes – 7 #1 votes - 27 top 5 votes -36 top 10 votes - VHB Bozzaholic, Dangerous Dan, roro ur boat, JHM (Rob's mentor), Rainmaker, Monday Night Jericho, Ray #1

3. Chris Benoit – 4,442 points - 49 votes - 13 top 5 votes - 30 top 10 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle, Wild Pegasus #2

4. Jushin Thunder Liger – 4,388 points - 48 votes – 2 #1 votes - 15 top 5 votes - 34 top 10 votes - VHB Dan T, AoA #1

5. Kenta Kobashi – 4,311 points - 47 votes – 1 #1 vote - 15 top 5 votes - 40 top 10 votes - VHB greenman #1

6. Eddie Guerrero – 4,255 points - 49 votes – 3 #1 votes – 8 top 5 votes - 21 top 10 votes - VHB Stunning Grover, Eivion Thanotos, WOODOO #1

7. Mitsuharu Misawa – 4,190 points - 47 votes – 12 top 5 votes - 28 top 10 votes - VHB Floyd, gordi, throughsilver #2

8. Ric Flair – 4,141 points – 48 votes – 8 #1 votes – 13 top 5 votes – 23 top 10 votes - VHB Floyd, Shozo the strong, anarchistxx, Rocket Moose, Dylan Waco, Big Rob, Shoe, Loss #1

9. Bret Hart – 3,707 points - 46 votes – 3 #1 votes – 9 top 5 votes – 13 top 10 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle, Slick Rick, Insane Clown #1

10. Stan Hansen – 3,669 points - 45 votes – 2 top 5 votes – 10 top 10 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle #3

11. Terry Funk – 3,573 points - 43 votes – 8 top 5 votes - 15 top 10 votes - VHB Rocket Moose, Dylan Waco, Big Rob #2

12. Harley Race – 3,501 points - 42 votes – 1 #1 vote - 8 top 5 votes - 15 top 10 votes - VHB Rob Naylor #1

13. Ricky Steamboat – 3,301 points - 45 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 4 top 10 votes - VHB Big Rob #3

14. Dynamite Kid – 3,250 points - 45 votes – 2 #1 votes – 2 top 5 votes - 8 top 10 votes - VHB Wild Pegasus, Warriorfan #1

15. Akira Hokuto – 3,244 points - 36 votes – 1 #1 vote - 11 top 5 votes - 21 top 10 votes - VHB Mr Dragon #1

 

 

Matt's point speaks a lot more to Dynamite Kid's final ranking than Flair's.

[Matt D]

Ok, so here's another thing, last for now.

 

I tried to get at it in my initial post (which I still like, but you need more detail here, apparently).

 

There is no shame in Flair being someone's #3 or #5 or even #15.

 

We're not Brodying Flair. None of us are. We're not Dynamite Kidding him. (There's the we again).

 

Flair's a smart enough worker to rate. I just don't think the value shift, whether I'm overstating it or not, is something that benefits him as much as other top ten contenders. When it comes to the very top, the difference between 10 and 1 of all time, that's when these things can really matter.

 

Frankly, I think that means he probably should do worse this time around (not from any moral reason, just as a prediction), as the people above him in that poll that would be "hurt" by this value shift, would be hurt lockstep with him while a number of others below him could be bolstered.

 

EDIT: Time's an issue right now, but I shamefully admit that I would, in a heartbeat, listen to a Parv/Rob Naylor podcast about Harley Race.

[ohtani's jacket]

Surely, the most relevant point about Flair and Jumbo at this point is that there are 98 other spaces on the ballot.

[WingedEagle]

Looking at the top 15 from last time I can't wait to see some of the changes.

[JerryvonKramer]

EDIT: Time's an issue right now, but I shamefully admit that I would, in a heartbeat, listen to a Parv/Rob Naylor podcast about Harley Race.

Could certainly do one, but would probably go 1 hour rather than 5 parts.

 

Not sure who'd want to sit in on that one with me though. Race will be in my 40-60 range probably.

[Matt D]

Did you miss the part where I said Naylor? It's a deal breaker otherwise.

[JerryvonKramer]

One for the Google Wrestling Podcast, Matt.

[Matt D]

Good Ol' Will from Texas still never gave us the link for that.

[Loss]

Editing this back in because Parv was quick on the draw and managed to respond before I changed the post to "nevermind."

 

What I said was that I reject the notion that we can't criticize or seemingly have opinions unless we watched guys live week to week.

 

My original post was probably snarkier than it needed to be and I'm sorry for that and am glad I was able to edit it because I don't think (at least I hope) that wasn't really Wade's point.

 

I would kill to have week to week footage of everyone. Not just to compare guys to Flair but because wresting is awesome, especially wrestling from that era.

 

Wade, please regale us with awesome stories of younger, pre touring champ Flair.

 

I think a better way to say it is that we need to have seen more of the available footage of a guy in competitive matches than we haven't before jumping to conclusions that may or may not be right.

[Childs]

Frankly, I think that means he probably should do worse this time around (not from any moral reason, just as a prediction), as the people above him in that poll that would be "hurt" by this value shift, would be hurt lockstep with him while a number of others below him could be bolstered.

 

 

I would be stunned if he finished below Guerrero, Benoit or Liger this time, and I don't see their cases as particularly linked to the same trends in thought that might or might not hurt Flair. From that list, only Hansen and Funk seem like solid bets to pass him, and I don't think that's a given in either case. My gut sense is he'll finish higher this time, not lower.

[BillThompson]

Show of hands, folks? Revaluing smart vs hard relative to 2005? Post-workrate whatever as part of the general PWO discussion over the last five years? How about minimalism? Is there a we here? I'm on the extremity of it but this is a thing, right?

 

Late to the party like usual, but I'm with Matt here. I think there is a fair number of people who have changed the way they look at tools and such, or even the way they define workrate. I'm one of those people, Matt is, I'd wager someone like Dylan, Steven Graham, and a bunch of others might be as well.

[Grimmas]

 

Show of hands, folks? Revaluing smart vs hard relative to 2005? Post-workrate whatever as part of the general PWO discussion over the last five years? How about minimalism? Is there a we here? I'm on the extremity of it but this is a thing, right?

 

Late to the party like usual, but I'm with Matt here. I think there is a fair number of people who have changed the way they look at tools and such, or even the way they define workrate. I'm one of those people, Matt is, I'd wager someone like Dylan, Steven Graham, and a bunch of others might be as well.

 

I definitely preferred more action in the past, now I prefer more storytelling and selling.

[jdw]

 

Frankly, I think that means he probably should do worse this time around (not from any moral reason, just as a prediction), as the people above him in that poll that would be "hurt" by this value shift, would be hurt lockstep with him while a number of others below him could be bolstered.

 

 

I would be stunned if he finished below Guerrero, Benoit or Liger this time, and I don't see their cases as particularly linked to the same trends in thought that might or might not hurt Flair. From that list, only Hansen and Funk seem like solid bets to pass him, and I don't think that's a given in either case. My gut sense is he'll finish higher this time, not lower.

 

 

It would be funny as shit if he finished #8 again, but it's highly unlikely. He'll move up.

[Matt D]

He's had kind of a hard week. But then considering how many HOF ballots we've seen this week with Edge on them...

[El-P]

 

 

Frankly, I think that means he probably should do worse this time around (not from any moral reason, just as a prediction), as the people above him in that poll that would be "hurt" by this value shift, would be hurt lockstep with him while a number of others below him could be bolstered.

 

 

I would be stunned if he finished below Guerrero, Benoit or Liger this time, and I don't see their cases as particularly linked to the same trends in thought that might or might not hurt Flair. From that list, only Hansen and Funk seem like solid bets to pass him, and I don't think that's a given in either case. My gut sense is he'll finish higher this time, not lower.

 

 

It would be funny as shit if he finished #8 again, but it's highly unlikely. He'll move up.

 

 

Yeah probably. What's old is new again.

[Matt D]

I think "impact" will hurt him.

[JerryvonKramer]

I can see the narrative already being written that the only reason Flair might finish #1 is because of the increased voter base.

 

I just want to point out that on PWO-PTBN podcast list shows so far, he's had three #1 votes (Charles, Pete, me), two #2 votes (Marty, Kelly), one #3 vote (Chad) and another #5 vote (Child). Tim and Timothy will both have to remind me where they had Flair but it wasn't lower than #10 which is where Steven had him.

 

This is just to say that the idea that Flair might finish #1 solely as a symptom of an increased user base just isn't true. If you take the podcast hosts as being reflective of the core PWO base in microcosm, he is doing pretty darn well.

 

I'm putting this here now because there have been stirrings of that suggestion and it is pretty disingenuous. And I say that as the guy typically hauled over the coals for being one of the people who said two years ago that we shouldn't open it up.

[Grimmas]

What Parv said.

 

I will add more to this once his spot is revealed.

[Matt D]

Flair, the choice of anonymity.

[Parties]

If Flair ends up #1 (and for the record, I don't care at all whether he does or doesn't), it will say as much about WWE's successful marketing of wrestling's past over the last 10 years as it will about the votership. Flair doesn't strike me as someone who benefitted as much as others from the Youtube boom, but his DVD collections, retirement angle, and close association with both the WON and WWE HOFs hold a lot of water.