Steenalized Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 I don't know if it's the board or my keyboard/computer but I'm having a hell of a time trying to use the quote function or copy/past here, so I'll try to make it clear what I'm responding to via italics. Apologies for any typos. Brackets with ellipses are to save me some typing. Whether I like the gimmick or not is irrelevant. 99% of people would agree that the evil foreign heel gimmick is at best dated and regressive, at worst xenophobic and cheap. The facts it makes for boring television is even worse. No. 99% of people do NOT think that. You think that. A handful of other people probably think that. A large section of people here do not think that, nor do the WWE live audience, especially on the point of making boring television. Well no. His television segments are repetitive, whether you enjoy them or not [...] Except you're using 'repetitive' as a pejorative, not a normative time. Yes, his matches were repetitive in that they always ended with him going over (until now) and working the back (which his finisher is designed to target the back, what an idiot he is in there). Yes, his promos were repetitive in that they were about putting him over and making him lookg strong. That does not mean that they were boring or ineffective to most people. Again a worthless response [...] Because currently your argument boils down to: Given how you talk about him, I'm not going to make you think he's a good worker and I'm sure as hell not going to be convinced by your "oh he's repetitive" talk that he's a bad worker. I think Tenryu is the greatest Japanese worker I've seen. Some people think he's boring as shit. DIfferent strokes, and all that. But if you're going to argue Tenryu was an ineffective worker, which is what you're doing to Rusev, then you need more than "I don't like these aspects of him." That's fine for your opinion on him, but not a universal presentation of his merits as a wrestler. The crowds sure as hell care. Can't agree with this. Can't remember a match of his that was molten, where the crowd really cared about the result one way or another. He got the crowd to care about matches with lame duck Big E and dead as a door nail Swagger. And overdone face Sheamus. Cena too, of course, though I'll grant that almost all of Cena's opponents get reactions. You can count on one hand [...] than any face on the roster. This is a non-point. Lesnar is treated as an unstoppable monster and isn't really a heel given the crowd reactions, the Heyman promos, and how he's treated. Bray, after his loss to Cena and poor follow up feuds, is dead in the water as a character. Rusev could go either way, time will tell. Really don't get [...][ He wasn't getting crazy crowd response against Mark Henry and Big Show. No one gets a reaction against Big Show, he's so past it in the crowds eyes, but he got as much as anyone else has in the past few years. He did get reactions against Henry, but again Henry is treated in such a start and stop matter that these are basically midcard, past their prime acts that were short showdowns to put him over. Look at how he's been since then. Well, don't, you'll just say the crowd give him crickets and the gimmicks suck and the matches are boring. The crowds weren't dead for those matches either, which is saying something given at least 3/4ths of the roster gets no reaction on a given night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 i think anarchistxx is horribly out of touch with american pop culture on a lot of these things, but i'm closer to him when it comes to the evil foreigner stuff. that shit instantly kills your cred with younger generations and it's part of the "lol wrestling is for manbabies" suite of cliches. only way to pull it off these days is to go full Team America with it, which cena actually did in his promo on jimmy kimmel. THAT'S the kind of stuff they need on their own TV if they're still going to be doing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 I like the idea that repetitive actions is boring and a bad thing, when that is the stuff that gets over. When you have built that stuff up over time and then you change things up a bit it gets even more over. Strange, because the biggest boom for the industry was when the television was volatile, unpredictable, with a sense that anything can happen and you better not tune out. Churning out repetitive squash matches followed by Anti-America promos every single week isn't exactly a ratings grabber. No. 99% of people do NOT think that. You think that. A handful of other people probably think that. A large section of people here do not think that, nor do the WWE live audience, especially on the point of making boring television. If an evil, stereotypical, foreign bad guy appeared in a film wanting to destroy the American way of life it would be seen as formulaic, regressive and xenophobic. These gimmicks have been out of date and out of step with society for over a decade. This is a non-point. It really isn't. You made an erroneous argument that no heels are protected in modern WWE - I gave you an example of three heels who have lost two or three times between them in the last twelve months. Three heels kept extremely strong, when every one of the top faces has done multiple jobs in that time. No one gets a reaction against Big Show, he's so past it in the crowds eyes, And everyone gets a reaction against Cena. Meaning we can't really ascertain whether the reaction is down to Rusev or not. I don't hate Rusev as a worker - he is decent, and has been part of several good matches. Just think the character is antiquated and can't last, and he isn't anywhere near the super worker the WWE marks on this board tout him to be. Nobody would hear a bad word against Bray Wyatt when I criticized him last year for the rambling promos and overrated matches, now everyone can't stand him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Wrestling isn't exactly a bastion of progressive world views and it's characters are often simplistic characatures of things society reviles. Even now, the evil foreigner is an effective heat magnet. Call it xenophobic or outdated, I generally agree, but it's not outdated in the sense that it. still. works. It can draw money if done right. Bray is semi protected. He also just jobbed to taker, came out of the Cena feud looking neutered, disappeared for months, and had a lackluster beef with Ambrose that included a loss. This is nowhere as strong as Rusev has been. And again, Brock is not really a heel, either booking-wise or crowd reaction-wise for certain. The character is a throwback and if left unevolved it would probably die out eventually. Doesn't mean it needs to die now, nor should it never change. He is a super worker in my opinion and in the opinion of plenty of people I respect. Quit using mark like a pejorative, it's utterly tacky. And sure, you're the martyr of Bray Wyatt sucks and now you're right, congratulations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Wrestling isn't exactly a bastion of progressive world views And we should just embrace and accept this? They are presenting a character in a reductionist, xenophobic, stereotypical way on a program that is by their own admission intended for children. We shouldn't give them a free pass because they have always been culturally backwards and have a history of offensive, stereotypical caricatures. Even now, the evil foreigner is an effective heat magnet. Mills & Boon still sell millions of books based around stereotypical simplistic caricatures and predictable plot lines. It doesn't mean we shouldn't expect more from our literature, or criticize the dross they release even though it sells to a certain demographic. Bray is semi protected. He also just jobbed to taker, came out of the Cena feud looking neutered, disappeared for months, and had a lackluster beef with Ambrose that included a loss. Everyone jobs to Undertaker. He beat John Cena a couple of times. He beat Dean Ambrose clean on multiple occasions when he was arguable the hottest face on the roster. His only major losses have come to veteran established talent, and on both occasions he got his win back. That is called being protected, especially in modern WWE when almost everyone jobs on television several times a year. That the feuds were lackluster is irrelevant - they were not written as such, they were written to be engaging and exciting. Quality of writing is not relevant when discussing whether someone has been protected or not. And again, Brock is not really a heel, either booking-wise or crowd reaction-wise for certain. He is clearly booked as a monster heel. Every feud he has is with a face. The fact he gets cheers is down to his aura, presence and the divisiveness of his opponents. There is no argument for Brock having booked as anything other than a heel. His manager is presented as the most odious, hated heel on the roster. And sure, you're the martyr of Bray Wyatt sucks and now you're right, congratulations. Point was, hardcore WWE fans tend to be pretty changeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 How is a Russian heel outdated??????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 How is a Russian heel outdated??????? Because the evil, foreign, America hating heel is an outdated, stereotypical, xenophobic caricature that has been dispensed with in every other form of media? It isn't any more relevant because the USA is on tense terms with Russia - the Mohammad Hassan character was still offensive even though the 'War On Terror' was in progress. It isn't as if they have made any attempt to frame Rusev in the context of current political events - they merely use the patronizing, straightforward, dumbed down conception of Evil Russian vs Gallant American as a magnet for cheap heat to capitalize on the attitude of fear of Putin and his government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Rusev's gimmick was helpful early on in providing something for crowds to latch onto and was good for easy heat with the flag and music and a Putin screen cap from time to time. After that, I don't think the gimmick meant nearly as much as his work, record and how strongly he was put over everyone he ran through. There's not much you can do with that kind of gimmick that will resonate long term in 2015. Its what they come up with other than the gimmick now that his undefeated run is over (which was probably necessary unless the plan was to headline a major PPV with him challenging for the title) that will determine his lasting power. The Russia angle doesn't feel like more than an accessory at this point, more analogous to Wyatt's lantern & dimmed lights than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Agreed with that, WingedEagle. It was there to start, and still is there but now it's in the backstage. His actions, antics, and work have gotten him over well beyond simple heel heat of being the foreign menace. And guess what, I don't care that you (anarchistxx) think this is your magic evil buzzwords of "outdated, stereotypical, xenophobic." It's not really outdated, given how hot it's shown it can be. I don't know if you know this, but every two years we have this massive international dickwaving contest were basically every country in the world treats the other as a hostile enemy as we all start to outcompete each other. And it's a pretty big deal. If you're beyond nationalism as an intellectual concept, cool, I can get that point, but that transcends whether Rusev is a good worker or not and whether he was over or not. He is in many peoples' minds and by all reports other than you (hyperbole, sue me) is over with the crowd. So what should the Rusev character be to you? The generic "I'm a super athlete and I'm here to win and be the best" that never draws a dime ever? Bobby Lashley and Kozlov and lots of other due that too. About the only guy it really works on is Brock, who clearly is a freak athlete. Rusev as the Russian menace is a good starting point to start his heat, a throwback to wrestling history (yes, there are some throwbacks to wrestling history we should not have, this one is pretty innocuous) and something that they can parlay into another character trait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 How is a Russian heel outdated???????WWE is trying to present itself as a worldwide organization. Running territorial gimmicks that were aimed at a regional audience just further points out their hypocrisy. And there's nothing novel about the act either, especially for someone who's not from the US like myself. Pretty much everyone I know has cut at least several Lana-esque promos about how stupid americans are, which kind of diminishes her success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Ideally, for me, Russev deals with the loss by going crazy and randomly attacking various babyface wrestlers and injuring them with the Accolade. He f inally goes too far and attacks some legend or Hall of Famer, which forces Cena to step up and defend the locker room in some sort of gimmick match like Extreme Rules, Last Man Standing, Hell in a Cell, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 . I don't know if you know this, but every two years we have this massive international dickwaving contest were basically every country in the world treats the other as a hostile enemy Yes, Switzerland, Ghana, Finland, Djibouti, Fifi, Timor, Singapore, Latvia and Iceland are regularly waving their dicks around looking for a hostile enemy to attack... By writing something so ridiculous you essentially prove that people like yourself i.e. small minded, ignorant morons with zero knowledge of the world outside of America are exactly what this gimmick is aimed at. No surprise you enjoy it and don't consider it to be either stereotypical, xenophobic or outdated. The generic "I'm a super athlete and I'm here to win and be the best" that never draws a dime ever? Yeah, because Mohammed Hassan and Ludvig Borga drew far more money than Kurt Angle and Brock Lesnar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Steenalized, like me, is an actual anarchist so that reply from the guy named anarchist is pretty amusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 You never struck me as an anarchist Dylan - if anything you regularly go to bat for the most mainstream, safe, non-anarchic promotion in wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 How is a Russian heel outdated???????WWE is trying to present itself as a worldwide organization. Running territorial gimmicks that were aimed at a regional audience just further points out their hypocrisy. And there's nothing novel about the act either, especially for someone who's not from the US like myself. Pretty much everyone I know has cut at least several Lana-esque promos about how stupid americans are, which kind of diminishes her success. I don't know, it seems like every country is pretty against Russia right now. Heck, Canada has laid sanction after sanction on them. Imagine how over Rusev would be in Ukraine? Anyway, the thing that seems to be missed here is that being pro Russia is not all Rusev is about. He is a bad ass dude who throws everyone around and kicks them in the face and makes them submit. The only person who can beat him was Cena and Rusev has beat him in the past. Russia is the starting point with Rusev, not the whole point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 You never struck me as an anarchist Dylan - if anything you regularly go to bat for the most mainstream, safe, non-anarchic promotion in wrestling. NWA SAW? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 You never struck me as an anarchist Dylan - if anything you regularly go to bat for the most mainstream, safe, non-anarchic promotion in wrestling. Another unintentionally hilarious comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Even if you do think Rusev has an outdated and reductive gimmick, which I can see, that may have played a role in getting people to notice him more originally, but he built on it and that's why he has maintained his heat for a year. We've seen WWE do the anti-American gimmick plenty of times and the acts usually fade out in a few months. Rusev has sustained it because: (1) He has been well-booked and produced(2) He has improved throughout the year in the ring (3) He and Lana have great chemistry as an act Surely, you recognize the difference between Yokozuna and Kenzo Suzuki. It's similar to the difference between Vladimir Koslov and Rusev. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herodes Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Just to go back to an earlier point where Anarchist says the biggest boom period of the attitude era was when wrestling television was it's most volatile and unpredictable; that's a complete falsehood. Part of the reason it was so over (until it became stale) was the predictability. Chanting along to the catchphrases of The Rock, New Age Outlaws, Godfather etc, Stone Cold Stunners, Dudleyz putting people through tables, cat fights etc. It was the most predictable and the fans loved to go and knew exactly what to expect and chant along until it went on too long and everyone got bored. Fans watched and went to shows expecting and demanding the exact same thing week in and week out. Another reason for the popularity was capturing the late 90s zeitgeist of Springer, South Park, Jackass etc. We are now living in the most xenophobic, jingoistic era since the 80s with more hatred of foreigners and mainstream racism than at any point in recent memory. So in fact Rusev is a perfect product of the times, albeit more sanatised since WWE is too scared to present the real perceived boogeyman of our age (evil Muslim terrorist republican nightmare) but Russia presents a safer whiter representation of the current jingoistic/racist time we live in (and Iraq imagery is too fresh and raw to exploit fully especially after the lessons of Slaughter, Russia is a more distant and safer substitute) So basically predictability and cultural relevance have been the keys to all their successful periods, and a healthy dose of geopolitical instability and ideological tensions always helps. WWE has got this one right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Just to go back to an earlier point where Anarchist says the biggest boom period of the attitude era was when wrestling television was it's most volatile and unpredictable; that's a complete falsehood. Part of the reason it was so over (until it became stale) was the predictability. Chanting along to the catchphrases of The Rock, New Age Outlaws, Godfather etc, Stone Cold Stunners, Dudleyz putting people through tables, cat fights etc. It was the most predictable and the fans loved to go and knew exactly what to expect and chant along until it went on too long and everyone got bored. Fans watched and went to shows expecting and demanding the exact same thing week in and week out. That was actually my point, but I forgot to go back and argue. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Rusev is over. The crowds react more strongly for him than almost anyone else. His segments got super reactions last year even against guys otherwise dead in the water like Big E and Jack Swagger. He gets booed by smart fans vs. Cena (even though they're still booing Cena -- it's Cena vs. a guy they don't want to cheer and STILL the angles and matches get very strong, enthusiastic crowd responses). I'm baffled that the value of Rusev's gimmick is questioned. The evidence in favor of it being a good act is overwhelming. And clearly PWO needs an anarchism forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 There is a difference between repeating a six second catchphrase and literally running the same segment, match and promo for three months straight. You never struck me as an anarchist Dylan - if anything you regularly go to bat for the most mainstream, safe, non-anarchic promotion in wrestling. Another unintentionally hilarious comment. Is it? You are a WWE mark and always have been. We are now living in the most xenophobic, jingoistic era since the 80s with more hatred of foreigners and mainstream racism than at any point in recent memory. So lets celebrate all the racism and hate foreigners too, via the medium of prime time television! Jesus, what kind of argument is this? The growing prevalence of racism doesn't justify the presentation of such xenophobic attitudes on television - if anything it is a reason not to air this kind of gimmick, because it shows how backwards your industry and fanbase is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Question: Do we boo Rusev because he is Russian or because he has destroyed all the babyfaces and is a better athlete than all of them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herodes Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 At best wrestling can reflect society and the prevailing cultural attitudes if the time via a medium of very basic narratives lacking subtlety. It may be cliched to say, but no matter how glitzy it becomes it's still working class theatre that uses exaggeration and stereotypes to tell their stories. You can't criticise what it has always been at it's core because that's the whole point of wrestling and (very) simply reflects society. Wrestling has no role to "educate" and should never aspire to pretences otherwise, it is wonderfully low brow and we should celebrate every evil Turk, Arab, Russian, Japanese from the 1800s until today because that's it's way of telling Americas story. It taps into fears of America losing it's dominant place in the world and exposing the myth of the dream which is symbolised by the evil "other". Wrestling has no duty to present the reality, only to go along with the mythology (hence no major Vietnamese heels) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 1, 2015 Report Share Posted April 1, 2015 Question: Do we boo Rusev because he is Russian or because he has destroyed all the babyfaces and is a better athlete than all of them? I thought we marked out like crazy for him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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