The NBA Playoffs are pro wrestling

[elliott]

Josh Smith feels like a good Kurt Angle. As enormously talented as he is stupid.

[DR Ackermann]

Good comp. I've heard both described as the ultimate videogame wrestler/player.

[jdw]

John can you come up with a good comp for Dr J?

 

 

 

Perhaps Tiger Mask in the revolutionary high flyer comp. There's also an element of underrated / overrated. Also did his "best work" in a "country" that most people didn't see (Doc in the ABA and Mask in Japan).

 

But...

 

The "Doc overrated" is tough as we have no idea how he would have done if he played his peak in the NBA. Post-Peak Doc took his team to 3 NBA Finals, each time going through the Celtics in the East... twice they were the defending NBA champs and the third time was Bird's rookie year when they won an NBA high 61 games. It's not like Post-Peak Doc took an easy way to the Finals, with some odd collection of teammates. Sure, he did finally win a title when kinda past his prime (where 21-7-4 on 52% shooting is kinda-past your prime Small Forward work!) when Moses joined the team. But you kind of forgive Doc needing Moses to carry the 76ers to a title when Doc was 32 after eleven seasons of carry a misfit league on misfit courts, then a misfit team with misfit players in an NBA that was also pretty screwed up.

 

Anyway...

 

Doc has longevity on Tiger Mask. My guess is that most of us believe he was better than Tiger Mask. But it's hard to come up with someone else.

 

 

Also, since you're still reading the thread, John, do you have a good Bill Walton pick?

 

Best in the game for a short period of time, then got hurt, with the injury changing history, noted for his love of a certain mind altering substance?

 

 

 

 

My major problem with Hogan as MJ is that MJ was the biggest star in the world AND the best worker in the world. Not just in a "working effectively to please the casuals and bring them back for moret" way but in a super hardcore way as well. MJ was Flair and Hogan combined only he was a bigger star than Hulk and a better worker than Flair. He was Fast and the Furious 7 and Citizen Kane.

 

I recall your argument.

 

I would argue back that Hogan was every bit as effective of a worked as Flair was. We hardcores have been on the wrong side of history.

 

 

Fujiwara is tough... Maybe Sidney Moncrief?

 

I'd love it if Sidney had not gotten hurt. Also, Sidney at his peak is a quality that a lot of people forget:

 

1981-82 NBA All-NBA Guards

1st: George Gervin / Gus Williams

2nd: Magic Johnson / Sidney Moncrief

 

1982-83 NBA All-NBA Guards

1st: Magic Johnson / Sidney Moncrief

2nd: George Gervin / Isiah Thomas

 

1983-84 NBA All-NBA Guards

1st: Magic Johnson / Isiah Thomas

2nd: Sidney Moncrief / Jim Paxson

 

1984-85 NBA All-NBA Guards

1st: Magic Johnson / Isiah Thomas

2nd: Michael Jordan / Sidney Moncrief

 

1985-86 NBA All-NBA Guards

1st: Magic Johnson / Isiah Thomas

2nd: Sidney Moncrief / Alvin Robertson (Jordan was hurt in second year)

 

Then Sidney suffered his career altering injury in the 1986/87 season and never was the same. Awfully good player, and seen as such at the time.

 

Perhaps:

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesbo01.html

 

Probably too many All-Star games, but even in his prime of scoring was never seen as a real star-star. More a solid teammate, really excelled at one thing (defense vs matwork) but was good at other things (Bobby could score a bit, could run the break, was a super smart % shooter... while Fujiwara does all those things other than matwork that Fujiwara Fans flip over). Would be happy to work in the background, but could shift into being a main even "opponent" (or in this case "support" to a main eventer like Doc). Not a short career, and still considered one of the best at his things even late in his career.

[jdw]

Josh Smith feels like a good Kurt Angle. As enormously talented as he is stupid.

 

Problem:

 

Kurt Angle

2002 Wrestler of the Year

2001 Most Outstanding Wrestler

2002 Most Outstanding Wrestler

2003 Most Outstanding Wrestler

 

Josh Smith

[nothing]

 

Both guys are stupid, but only one of them made Voters stupid.

 

Hmmm....

 

 

"We're sitting here, and I'm supposed to be a franchise wrestler, and we're in here talking about house

shows. I mean, listen, we're talking about house shows. Not a pay per view! Not the Royal Rumble!

Not Summer Slam! We're talking about house shows. Not a Survivor Series; not Wrestlemania that

I go out there and die for and work every pay per view like it's my last.... we're talking about house

shows, man. I mean, how silly is that?"

 

You know that would piss of Jag.

[jdw]

Josh Smith has to be some minor wrestler with some talent who pissed it was without ever reaching World Title or even Main Event status. His heyday was in Atlanta, which never has amounted to anything, and where Nique is still the best ever.

 

Josh is like a local star, who flopped at the first "national" place he went to while his territory got better after he left, then showed flashes of looking good (but really also still floppy) with his second national promotion.

 

You'd almost want to say he's Brusier Brody, but Brody was a bigger star.

[Brandon-E]

I wonder which wrestlers have the most in common with Reggie Miller & Mitch Richmond.

Who are the pro wrestling equivalents of those two John? I can't think of any.

[Mr. Lacelle]

Tully Blanchard & Rick Martel.

[SteveJRogers]

Russell = Bret Hart works if you want to equate the Screwjob and end of his WWF run as akin to Russell dealing with negative and racist press and fans in Boston, as well as other stars getting their star elevated over him despite his iconic run.

 

Oscar Robertson = Ray Stevens or just about every other great who gets the "yeah, but how much footage exists/yeah but I never saw him play" treatment when being discussed among the greats.

[DMJ]

Anyone got a good comparison for Mark Henry? I'm thinking something to do with a guy who, after some weak earlier years, came into his own and became an All-Star caliber player some time around his 10th season in the league.

 

Tyson Chandler maybe? High draft pick (Henry had that big post-Olympics contract) but ended up bouncing between a number of teams (just like Henry bounced through a number of gimmicks/stables/turns) before winning an NBA Championship in 2011 (Henry won the WHC in 2011).

[PeteF3]

Josh Smith has to be some minor wrestler with some talent who pissed it was without ever reaching World Title or even Main Event status. His heyday was in Atlanta, which never has amounted to anything, and where Nique is still the best ever.

 

Josh is like a local star, who flopped at the first "national" place he went to while his territory got better after he left, then showed flashes of looking good (but really also still floppy) with his second national promotion.

 

You'd almost want to say he's Brusier Brody, but Brody was a bigger star.

 

Buddy Landell?

[DR Ackermann]

The Russell/Hart comparison doesn't work because Russell is a legit contender for GOAT whereas Bret Hart comes nowhere close.

[elliott]

I like the Mark Henry Tyson Chandler pick. Thats a good one. So is Buddy Landell as Josh Smith.

 

Dynamite Kid almost feels like a good Allen Iverson.

 

The Derrick Rose Bulls are Toshiaki Kawada to LeBron's Misawa and I fucking hate it. Derrick Rose is Kawada's knee which is just perfect.

[KrisZ]

Josh Smith has to be some minor wrestler with some talent who pissed it was without ever reaching World Title or even Main Event status. His heyday was in Atlanta, which never has amounted to anything, and where Nique is still the best ever.

 

Josh is like a local star, who flopped at the first "national" place he went to while his territory got better after he left, then showed flashes of looking good (but really also still floppy) with his second national promotion.

 

You'd almost want to say he's Brusier Brody, but Brody was a bigger star.

 

[jdw]

 

I wonder which wrestlers have the most in common with Reggie Miller & Mitch Richmond.

Who are the pro wrestling equivalents of those two John? I can't think of any.

 

 

I always thought Richmond was an overrated gunner. People fondly look back at the TMC teams and forget that they went 37-45 & 44-38 the two years they were together. They spiked up to 55-27 the season they dumped him on Sacto for Billy Owens. The Kings sucked while he was there, and rose in the West after he was gone and Weber came in.

 

I'll give it to Richmond that his stats look good over at Basketball-Reference as an efficient player with that .388 3P% and .850 FT%. All-NBA's look kindly on him as well. It's just that he never really worried me at all: he could gun all he wanted, but his teams weren't going to win.

 

Probably some spotty junior (since he's a Guard) who has sloppy, crappy matches. Sabu should be reserved for the worst example of these guys (Pistol Pete). But along the lines of RVD, though you'd want to save him for one of the cokehead gunners. You guys know those spot machines better than I do.

 

Miller was a specialist who was very good at what he did, and had a role with a strong promotion. Clutch. But boy was it limited. Rebounding was crap. Assists were appalling. Defense was poor. Not really great at creating his own shot, and bad at creating it for others (Reggie ran through screens-o-plenty to get open... and it was some major league beef that set him from in Smits and the Davis Brothers among others). You really had to play to his strengths and put a lot of support in to cover his weakness. There's a streak of him that's overrated when people think he's Top 50. But... he was exceptional at his one specialty, and had the clutch element, and his teams were good.

 

You want to pick a specialist for this, and given Reggie's specialty was something pretty (3 pointers) rather than brute (like blocking shots), you'd want a someone whose specialty was pretty nifty / nice.

 

Perhaps Volk Han. I don't know if Volk is the best matworker of all-time, but people make the argument. Volk wasn't the key main eventer in his promotion: that was Maeda, then Tamura got the push. But he had a long run as the #1 gaijin in it. He was limited to his type of match, so it's not like you could throw him in there with Misawa or Hogan or Flair... but he was really good at what he was good at.

 

 

Anyone got a good comparison for Mark Henry? I'm thinking something to do with a guy who, after some weak earlier years, came into his own and became an All-Star caliber player some time around his 10th season in the league.

 

Tyson Chandler maybe? High draft pick (Henry had that big post-Olympics contract) but ended up bouncing between a number of teams (just like Henry bounced through a number of gimmicks/stables/turns) before winning an NBA Championship in 2011 (Henry won the WHC in 2011).

 

Chandler is pretty good.

 

Henry is a "specialist": a Power Wrestler, at least as he portrayed. Chandler turned into a defensive master. Both were "disappointments" early, and practically written off before hitting it big later.

 

 

 

Josh Smith has to be some minor wrestler with some talent who pissed it was without ever reaching World Title or even Main Event status. His heyday was in Atlanta, which never has amounted to anything, and where Nique is still the best ever.

 

Josh is like a local star, who flopped at the first "national" place he went to while his territory got better after he left, then showed flashes of looking good (but really also still floppy) with his second national promotion.

 

You'd almost want to say he's Brusier Brody, but Brody was a bigger star.

 

Buddy Landell?

 

 

Not bad at all.

[elliott]

I'm really impressed that no one has offered up the most obvious NBA players to figure out wrestler comps for:

 

Ron Artest

Stephen Jackson

 

What do you got? Hansen and Brody was my gut reaction but that's way too nice to Ron Artest and way too mean to Stephen Jackson.

[Mr. Lacelle]

I'd say Mutombo was Big Van Vader.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm really impressed that no one has offered up the most obvious NBA players to figure out wrestler comps for:

 

Ron Artest

Stephen Jackson

 

What do you got? Hansen and Brody was my gut reaction but that's way too nice to Ron Artest and way too mean to Stephen Jackson.

 

This has got to be two indy workers.

[jdw]

I'm really impressed that no one has offered up the most obvious NBA players to figure out wrestler comps for:

 

Ron Artest

Stephen Jackson

 

What do you got? Hansen and Brody was my gut reaction but that's way too nice to Ron Artest and way too mean to Stephen Jackson.

 

They're really tough.

 

We forget that Jackson in his prime put up three straight seasons of 20-4-4, 21-5-7 & 21-5-4, that he was good before that, that he was a tough defender, and that he was one of the leading edge modern wingman who shoot the three and play defense. He was a little inconsistent on being efficient, but you tend to get that in the early days of a trend.

 

Ron-Ron at his peak was the best defensive player in the league. Pretty much Pippen 2.0, but much-much-much more physically tough. He also was turning into a quality offensive player right when the Malice at the Palace happened, and that really stunted his growth.

 

Neither had short careers.

 

Ron-Ron was nuts, though about 95% of the time it was a loveable nut. There was a part of his personality that would snap when he felt attacked / pushed, and it was pretty scary. I suspect some of us growing up knew someone like that. One of my best friends was as solid of a guy as there was, you could always count on him to have your back and treat you well... but if he got in a fight, he just went scary nuts on the other person. And people tended to avoid getting him into one of those rages, and if they knew he they knew to calm him the hell down as soon as he had a certain look in his eyes/face.

 

Jackson wasn't quite nuts. He was just an old school hard man mixed with some new school pride & honor. Tough man, but his actions were easier to understand.

 

I'd hate to tie Hansen to being something paired with Brody. Hansen & Brody only teamed from 1982 to early 1985. It's such a small element of the totality of Hansen's career.

 

I'd also like to tie Brody to some really overrated "showy" player, rather than a pair of hard working players like Ron-Ron and Captain Jack.

[Brandon-E]

Anyone have wrestler comparisons for Chris Mullin and Alex English?

[PeteF3]

Or Hakeem? Or did he get done and I missed it?

 

Could Olajuwon be Bret Hart? Two titles in a Jordan/Hogan-less era, "foreign" (to differing degrees), technically sound, not the outsized personality of the other major stars of the era...I dunno, maybe it doesn't hold up.

[jdw]

Another Hakeem-Bret link:

 

They were both thought to be complaining assholes by people "in the know" before they became beloved legends later. Hakeem for winning the Jordan-less titles, and Bret for being the Anti-Shawn and getting fucked by Vince.

 

Both were non-US who became stars in the US. Bret had the longer climb, while Hakeem was a major star from day one.

 

* * * * *

 

Guys like English are tough. There are loads of guys who were gunners who didn't do much else. One can look for comps to guys like Nique or Pistol Pete, but when you hit the English level there always are guys like that who have a run of scoring a lot. We just talked a bit about Mitch Richmond. English vs Kiki... they're not the same player, but the same disposable scorer.

 

Someone like Dantley can be distinguished because of his unique style: he was a 6-4 / 6-5 who got his points via post ups along with a freakish ability to draw fouls. I can't think of any players who were like AD at his size in that era. Barkley was around his height, but more of a beast because of his weight-size.

 

With English... eh... kind of a generic "star" who scored a lot, has a career of good length, was a main eventer in his mid-level promotion, but never was a national / major star.

 

* * * * *

 

Mullin was a bit unique and we should be able to come up with someone. The no-defense should lead to someone who really didn't have good psych, but was more a spot monkey. Someone kind of corny rather than a super cool gimmick / persona. Not really a top top star, but this:

 

1988-89 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1989-90 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
1990-91 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1991-92 NBA All-NBA (1st)

 

Isn't a bad "peak".

[elliott]

The Bret/Hakeem comp also allows me to drag the thread back to the gutter where it belongs and say that Davey Boy Smith and Jim Neidhart are Lewis Lloyd and Mitchell Wiggins.

[ohtani's jacket]

So, who's Willis Reed?

 

[NitroFan]

[elliott]

We didn't cover Paul Pierce did we?

 

I can't think of anyone but it is someone awesome.

 

Sidenote, what a brutal way to lose a series.