Rick Rude vs. Ted Dibiase

[JerryvonKramer]

Was it a weak argument or just a weak example?

[shoe]

Example professor.

[JerryvonKramer]

Incidentally, I didn't know Rude was broken down in 93. I knew he got injured and couldn't come back, but I didn't know he was carrying the injury at the time of the Flair match. His whole 93 is pretty disappointing for me, especially after he shaves the tache off. I figured Rude in 93 was close to peak, but if he was injured fair enough.

[Parties]

Assuming this is the match in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8hj7U2A_Qo

Good performance from a guy who no doubt had many good performances. It's a scrappy babyface showing, but the arm work gets old and it doesn't seem better or worse than comparable TV matches of the era. Peak was probably the table spot. Patterson looks better than Dibiase here, but sure, Dibiase showed fire.

 

Dibiase's “lack of intensity” comes in the lesser Mid-South stuff, and the formulaic nature of his WWF work, esp. after '88. In his Million Dollar Man stuff, he's either Ron Burgundy flopping around or sucking wind while running his routine. I compared him to Orton because their facial reactions never work for me, and come off as inexpressive even during big moments. That said, he is a good promo. Overrated, but good.

 

It's all solidly executed, but I never get engrossed in his WWF matches. I don't like the Million Dollar Man character, which hurts his stuff. The Virgil and Dustin stuff hadn't aged well when I watched it on the Network. Money Inc. has aged even worse. And I say that as someone who's found recent looks at that era of WWF to be better than I'd remembered. Even a really good match like April '88 vs. Savage at MSG, custom-made for me, isn't as compelling as it should be, despite some great bumps from Dibiase. To be fair, in WWE he was consistently put in bad spots and asked to improve upon garbage. Zeus, Virgil, early Taker, and post-parasail Brutus weren't going to be good no matter what he did.

 

Dibiase's very good. I'm not his biggest fan, and when you're not a huge fan, you can find things to nitpick. (For me, creepy "born again" ideas of what wrestling should be drop him about six hundred and sixty six notches.) But he's very good. Rude has a limited period of greatness: three, three and a half years tops. Career vs. career, I guess it's Dibiase, given the breadth of his run and strength of Watts' booking and the Hansen team in AJ. Peak vs. peak, Rude's '92 is best and I like him so much more as a performer, gimmick, promo and top heel that this was an easy pick for me. And the original point (that Rude would have been a better world champ in '90-'92) remains.

[JerryvonKramer]

Parties - with MDM, for intensity, you have to watch him in spots where he has to bring aggression to see the intensity and fire from him after 1988. There are times when he goes into a mode of "right, fuck this, I'm going to get the job done here". He does it with Bret in that stretch of the Survior Series match. He does it against Dusty and Dustin just before the Virgil face turn at Rumble 91. He does it, to an extent, in the Surivor Series showdown match in 91 against Virgil. He does it in the little spot after the Jake match when he beats up Bossman at WM6. He does it in the heel beatdown on Beefcake on that episode of Raw in 93. He does it vs. jobbers. He basically does it any time he has license from the office to be aggressive. I haven't done a wholescale review of MDM MSG / Philly matches though, so I need to take a deeper look in all honesty. My focus for the past few years has not been WWF late 80s / early 90s.

[ohtani's jacket]

Flair wasn't the same worker after '93 so Flair vs. Rude not being that great in '93 wasn't entirely on Rude. Dibiase vs. Virgil is sublime, though. You have to give credit to the booking though -- the slow burn and Piper going nuts on commentary. The SummerSlam match wouldn't work if Ted wasn't trolling Piper at ringside. Late 80s WWF guys are hurt by not getting longer matches on PPV. That really damages their reputation because you have to look to the houseshows, and houseshows are houseshows.

[elliott]

Rude vs. Chono?

 

Are you referring to the all time classic they had in the G1 Tournament or the dogshit match at Havoc that happened a month after Chono suffered a broken neck which everyone agrees changed his career forever?

 

There are plenty of arguments for Dibiase over Rude. That Havoc match isn't really the best thing to point to.

 

For me, I voted for Ted. I think Rude's peak was better but it is really close enough that Ted's longevity as a strong worker pushes him ahead of Rude.

[JerryvonKramer]

Any other examples people want to shoot down because of various injuries?

[ohtani's jacket]

I watched those two Magnum TA matches for the hell of it (the ones from the same day); and while they were cool, there were times when Dibiase came across as both a poor man's Ric Flair & Terry Funk. It wasn't until he took over on offence that he produced anything you could say was definitively "Dibiase." I'm not sure he was enough of his own man to stand out among the truly great performers. He's just a really good worker trying to be passed off as an all-time great. If he'd been able to have matches like that in the watered down WWF (minus the blood) it would have strengthened his case, but Magnum was busting his ass in those matches, especially the Tulsa one, so it wasn't like it was all Ted shining.

[JerryvonKramer]

Maybe someone else can shed more light on this, but as I recall from researching for the Wrestler Snapshot On Ted I did with Steven and Will, DiBIase wasn't actually working in Mid-South at the time of those Magnum matches. He spent all of 84 in GCW and back and forth All Japan.

 

Seems like he came in for a one shot to work those two matches, and it looks like a favour to Watts to help put Magnum over. Not that it particularly changes anything, but the context for the matchwas is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of context, I don't think Ted was in any storylines or anything, because he wasn't around. Just a weird one shot. Mid-Atlantic Gateway has all his dates.

 

So those matches are a lot more important in Magnum's career than they are in Ted's, where they are literally just "a night".

 

That is, unless anyone has any different info on this that I'm not aware of (eg. What Watts was saying on the TV at the the time).

 

He also worked a random one shot in 85 with Chavo for South West at the Battle of the Alamo, where he was for the second time in his career, the holder of a fictional North American title. This is also how he debuted in WWF in 79.

[ohtani's jacket]

Maybe they're just another night for Tef, but what really makes Dibiase special? I can't think of much outside of his signature offence and signature laugh, and to me that's not enough. If you can't write a treatise on a wrestler's character they can't be that memorable.

[JerryvonKramer]

If you go onto Kayfabe memories, and visit any of the boards there, you'll see plenty of old-time fans of GCW, Mid-South and WWF sharing memories of angles that had Ted at the centre of them. Whether its taking the multiple piledrivers from the Freebirds or the brainbuster on the concrete from Murdoch, or smashing Duggan's car in with a baseball bat, or the basket ball skit or any of the vignettes from WWF. Go and watch him in his cape buying the Million Dollar Belt. Or paying off the attendants in the swimming pool. They were all "memorable" and are enshrined in the memories of many fans from the era.

 

I think it's fair to say that he benefitted in his career from tremendous booking, he had the genius of Watts behind him in Mid-South, and the genius of Vince behind him in WWF. And in All Japan, Baba always booked him strongly and treated him like a big deal.

 

Ted's key asset as a worker is that he could do exactly the job required of him by the booker for any given situation. Ask him to bleed and he'll bleed you buckets. Ask him to put someone over and he'll make them look like a million bucks. Ask him to be a dick and he'll be a dick. Ask him to be Stan Hansen Jr. and he'll be Stan Hansen Jr. Ask him to put over an angle and you can be sure the angle gets over. He's a booker's dream and likely a number #1-4 draft pick for any booker active during the 80s for that reason. You don't take him over Savage, Hogan or Flair if you're a booker, but you probably take him over almost everyone else. That's why in 1987 he was the cherry pick from UWF. Anyone who thinks a booker would take a Greg Valentine over Ted even in 1983 is in dream world. If you lined up all of the promotors of the period and ask them "Who would you rather take?", it's Ted every day and if people reading this are honest with themselves they know it.

 

Ted was a good promo, not a stellar one, but really solid. Watch his promos from Mid-South in the feud with Duggan, or any of the ratpack stuff really. Watch his promos in the Jake feud in WWF. Watch his promos in the feuds with Savage (probably his very best is from this episode of Primetime from 88 -- probably on the Network), Dusty or Virgil.

 

In the ring, he also played his character. I don't get the talking point from brainfollower that his character work doesn't carry into the matches. As a babyface he was fired up and -- at least I thought -- stood out a good bit in 1979 as working about twice as hard and fast as anyone else in WWF (which isn't saying much, ha ha), I thought he stood out as much as Rick Martel has in 1981, although Patterson was the best worker around. As a heel in Mid-South, he works even more aggressively and does have a touch of arrogance in his character. I don't think you can pick up a WWF Ted match and a Mid-South Ted match (and an AJ Ted match) and say he worked identically in all of them. In WWF, the way he'd walk the aisle was basically perfect for the character. He was smug, self-satisifed, often talking to himself. He'd stop during heat sequences at times to do his money taunt. But he worked more stooge-y because (surprise, surprise) that's exactly what the booker required of him.

 

I totally disagree with the idea that Ted wasn't memorable. But I do get what OJ is saying. And I think it's true that Ted was sort of chameleon-like and so might lack things that are distinctively "his" (although we can point to moves: the trademark 360 neck bump, the missed double axe-handle and front flip bump, the scoop powerslam, the fist drop -- those are all trademark spots of his that are distinctive and unmistakable). He was also a bit workman-like. If I was to draw an analogy if Ted's in Animal Farm he's not any of the leaders, but Boxer -- the loyal workhorse. But when you put it all together, how many guys had a career like he had? Sometimes people get ahead simply by taking instruction and being excellent at their job, and that was Ted. He wasn't an innovator really, he wasn't an ideas man, and he wasn't someone who is going to deviate from the booker's script, but he was a top worker at the top of the game at a time when there were lots of very talented people around. That means he's not a tier 1 guy, but he's solidly in tier 2. Rude just didn't have that career or ability to be exactly what the situation required of him, though I agree his peak in 92 is one of the all-time great years of any worker.

 

Anyway, that's the end of my passionate argument. I don't really want to talk about Ted, I think he's massively over-indexed in terms of the attention he gets on this board. And C.S. might think I'm being egocentric, but I don't think it's a coincidence that there are like 4 or 5 Ted microscope threads and I happen to post on this site. I don't think those threads are made if I'm not here. People like to argue with me, I think they get a kick out of my irriration or something, I dunno. But I've made this post now and if anyone wants to discuss Ted again with me I can always point them back here, like I point people back to the Flair arguments in the Flair vs. Bret thread. I've said it all on audio before, and now I've said it on here. End.

[Sidebottom]

To the Baba point, it's worth noting that when Ted got injured on his last 90s tour 5 dates in, Baba paid for his hospital expenses as well as all of the dates he couldn't work. Ted was well respected.

[ohtani's jacket]

Parv, I thought that was a passionate defense of Dibiase and I applaud you.

[thebrainfollower]

I was referring to his in ring character work in his WWF run. But I also pointed out that Rude had the easier character to play in ring. Pose a lot, look cocky, act like your opponent is beneath you but then when he messes up your face or gets you angry, act like one vicious SOB. Rude does that pretty consistently in all the WWF matches I've seen.

 

Ted's got a harder character to play in ring because how fundamentally does a millionaire wrestle? There isn't a set style really (though crazy brawler and high flyer would both be very strange choices) so in ring he's sort of just a generic "technical" wrestler. He does everything really smooth and his offense usually looks absolutely great, but there's not the same passion in it there is for Rude. Partly I think that's the character, partly I think that's where each guy was in his career by then, but it's one place where, and I'm not convinced it's fair per se, I think Rude is better than Dibiase.

 

Your points about Ted being whatever the booker wanted him to be is accurate Parv. It's why to me Ted is what HHH wanted to be but never had the skills to pull off, but he's still the guy who works with the guy who draws money for the casual fan. I too eventually voted for him over Rude, but it's a close comparison.

[Dylan Waco]

There is a point I want to argue here about Parv's draft pick argument but I don't want to make it about Ted since he seems exhausted with/upset by the prospect of discussing him further. I think I may drop that into a thread in the GWE forum and link it here later.

[jdw]

I'd rather watch Rude at this point.

 

As to who I'd want in my promotion, probably Ted. Rude struck me at the time, and still strikes me, as often a pain in the rear with an ego that increased over time. I recall laughing with Dave over Rude emphatically telling people in WCW that he'd never job for Hogan after Hulk arrived in the company. Ted was reliable, and versatile. If you're running a company, you could do more with him, move him up and down, etc.

 

With Rude, nailed right, you probably could make more money. Then again... Ted's biggest money run did more money that Rude's. That could be circumstances and luck, and Rude just not having the right chance. The WWF didn't knock everything out of the park, and it's possible that Rude built well to be Savage's follow on opponent after Ted's run was done could have drawn. Possible that if built well that he could have drawn well with Hogan, though he didn't fit well in the model of people who drew well at that point in time with Hulk. Hard to tell if even the concept in the first sentence of this paragraph is right... might be over estimating Rude.

 

Still: would rather watch Rude, and would rather have Ted in my promotion.

[elliott]

There is a point I want to argue here about Parv's draft pick argument but I don't want to make it about Ted since he seems exhausted with/upset by the prospect of discussing him further. I think I may drop that into a thread in the GWE forum and link it here later.

 

Without knowing what Dylan's point is, I just wanted to say I think Jerry's draft idea would be a really interesting topic. There are tons of different factors you would have to consider. Location, territory size, business model, etc etc etc.

 

Are all the wrestlers Free Agents so each promotion is starting from sractch or are you just taking the top 2-3 guys from each promotion and shuffling them around? Since this is a fantasy and you're building a territory around your top draft pick, is the history of the territory still intact or are you saying you're building a promotion to bring wrestling to this particular territory for the first time, because Wrestler A might mean a lot more than Wrestler B in a specific territory based on prior history. That was wordy and may not have been clear so I'll use an example to help clear it up.

In 1980 if Memphis had the #5 draft pick and was deciding to pick between Jerry Lawler or Bob Backlund they would pick Jerry Lawler.

In 1980 if WWF had the #5 draft pick and was deciding to pick between Jerry Lawler or Bob Backlund, they would pick Bob Backlund.

 

Now if you're making your fantasy draft selections under the idea that there is no prior wrestling history in this territory and you're grabbing the "best available talent" I would argue 1980 WWF would select Jerry Lawler with that #5 pick.

 

So there's a lot to think about. Cool idea though.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't know if you listen to podcasts Elliot, but this is an idea I had before and we actually did a draft here:

 

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-50-1990-fantasy-draft/

 

Year was 1990, everyone was a free agent. First show was the draft, second booking the rosters. Rules and talent pool here: http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-50-1990-fantasy-draft-rules/

 

I believe another podcast did this concept again (with our permission to copy the idea) only the date was later.

 

It might have been long enough that we do another one soon. Will have to see how much interest there is around it.

[Grimmas]

I don't know if you listen to podcasts Elliot, but this is an idea I had before and we actually did a draft here:

 

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-50-1990-fantasy-draft/

 

Year was 1990, everyone was a free agent. First show was the draft, second booking the rosters. Rules and talent pool here: http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-50-1990-fantasy-draft-rules/

 

I believe another podcast did this concept again (with our permission to copy the idea) only the date was later.

 

It might have been long enough that we do another one soon. Will have to see how much interest there is around it.

The Pro-Wrestling Super Show did it with current talent last year.

[ohtani's jacket]

Regarding the character stuff, they really only played gimmicks in the WWF. Rude had his whole shtick with the robe, "cut the music", the tights, the Rude Awakening, and Bobby handpicking some woman for him to kiss. Ted had the residence, the jacket, the laugh, the bodyguard, the Million Dollar Dream and the hundred dollar bill down the throat. Later on, he had the theme song and the catchphrase "everybody's got a price." It's impossible to say which gimmick was better, but I strongly disagree that Ted didn't wrestle like a "millionaire" is supposed to. Dibiase nailed that shit. I've always considered him a technical brawler. He had the right amount of technical acumen to suggest he had the best teachers and the right amount of brawling to suggest he wasn't an innately superior athlete. Ironically, I think Rude improved when he shred a lot of the "Ravishing" gimmick and became a legitimate asskicker.

[jdw]

 

I don't know if you listen to podcasts Elliot, but this is an idea I had before and we actually did a draft here:

 

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-50-1990-fantasy-draft/

 

Year was 1990, everyone was a free agent. First show was the draft, second booking the rosters. Rules and talent pool here: http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-50-1990-fantasy-draft-rules/

 

I believe another podcast did this concept again (with our permission to copy the idea) only the date was later.

 

It might have been long enough that we do another one soon. Will have to see how much interest there is around it.

The Pro-Wrestling Super Show did it with current talent last year.

 

 

Pat McNeil has been doing it for years in the Torch with various guest-drafters going opposite of him. I was one of them, and that was more than a decade ago since Eddy was still alive and I was actually watching the WWF.

 

Hell, Yohe, Hoback and I did it in 1993. Yohe took his talent and booked it for two straight years, month after month, writing up the weekly tv, the monthly PPV, and even the detail of the house shows where he avoided running the same card night after night. He was doing the equiv of Raw/Nitro style booking on TV years before the Monday Night Wars, and I use to joke with him that he was insane for giving away good stuff for free on tv. I probably still have my copy of all of it in a box somewhere.

 

It's a really old concept. Suspect the older folks on here were doing it with their friends in the 80s, if they had wrestling friends.

[Ricky Jackson]

Between this and Looney Toons wrestler comparisons you truly have done it all

[jdw]

The difference is that I don't feel the need to give people the "permission" to do stuff that people have done for decades.

[goodhelmet]

I picked DIbiase and I don't even think it is close. Unlike Phil, Kris Z and I didn't come away from the Mid South project thinking Dibiase had a lot of shit performances. If the loaded glove gimmick isn't for you, I get it. Then again, people tell me the hidden chain gimmick isn't for them. Different strokes. From 1982-1987, he had good to great matches with nearly every person to go through Mid South and I never felt Ted was phoning it in the way I felt Rude would do for large stretches of his career. Anything Ted did in Georgia or All Japan was just gravy on top during this time frame.

 

For the WWF portion of their careers, I guess I would pick Rude but it isn't by an overwhelming margin but instead because of a small handful of great performances that Rude took part in including the Piper and Warrior matches that stand out from the DIbiase WWF run. All the talk about character work and who was really a piece of scum is just distractions. They were both very effective as characters in WWF. Rude could be absolutely dismal in WWF (Roberts Mania 4 match) where I often thought Ted was merely dull.

 

Rude had an awesome 1992. 1992 WCW was awesome with or without Rude. I don't think one standout year and a handful of good-great WWF performances outweighs the 5 year Mid South run from Ted. Ted could have never wrestled another match after his Mid South run and I would still pick Ted. Rude needed that one year in WCW just to be in the conversation.