Rick Rude vs. Ted Dibiase

[Matt D]

Chad, I listed off my thoughts on what we were doing the other day and the response was that it was a day late and the matter was settled and there was no point in running it into the ground more. So I just sort of accepted that.

[Childs]

I think that was my statement, Matt, and I meant it in the fairly narrow sense that those who launched the project don't want people to feel self-conscious about voting. Obviously, there is a greater, unsettled debate about methodology and meaning.

[Dylan Waco]

What irks me the most about this is the announcement of non-participation. If Parv or anyone else doesn't want to participate than don't. But to announce it this way after making a wholesale condemnation of the process reeks of "I don't like that I don't have control of this." The spirit of the project is for it to be both individual and communal. If people aren't into that fine, why announce it?

 

I have kept my mouth shut about issues that have occurred within the more closely knit community that exists at PWO-PTBN in the interest of protecting the integrity of the bigger project at hand. I did this against my better judgment because I did not want to hurt or undermine what we do there as a team. I could have (and most people I talked to about the matter privately thought I SHOULD have) walked away, but I didn't. Still that's not the point. The point is that if you don't want to participate, but you care about the project or the community that is behind it, why make a grand announcement about the allegedly terribly flawed nature of it, and then announce that you are bolting?

[Loss]

It's hard to argue that point, and I already regret even making another post about it since I didn't say anything new anyway. I felt like I should back JvK up since it was one guy arguing a point opposite a collective and that was my only reason for adding that. Still, you're right. My participation or lack thereof is not more important than anyone else's. I don't intend to say anything else about it in a post or in a podcast.

[soup23]

 

 

To be fair, this is the same offended and patronizing attitude Parv had in places such as the "who is better: Dibiase or Bossman" thread, so this is obviously deeper and more personal than just the name of this project.

 

That said, I am not at all tied to the name of this project.

 

Wrestler Snapshot - 2015 Edition would be perfectly fine to me. Or anything like that. I voiced my thoughts over in the Everyone Should Make a Ballot thread. We don't have to brag or come off as pretentious with the title of this project. We all know what we're doing.

 

This feels like an all -emcompassing statement that doesn't quite sit right with me. On the confines of we all know what we are doing do you mean, each person has a criteria they have formulated as to how they are voting, or do you mean collectively, we all know what the purpose of the process is. If it is the latter, I would strongly disagree. If it is the former, that is one of the other fundamental issues I have had increasingly over the length of the project. Will's criteria has been publicly stated that his 100 guys has been mapped out more or less and it will take a LOT for someone to enter that. Granted, Will has watched a lot of wrestling but I disagree with this notion and the fact that he is fine just hand waving eras like joshi that he doesn't find entertaining on a personal level. Furthermore, someone can lambast myself for relying on great match theory as a metric I will use when compiling my list. The crux comes in what can be criticized and what can't. The Everyone should turn in a ballot notion is a good one and does create an all inclusive atmosphere. Yet, the next reply after this from El-P talks about people watching matches. I haven't seen anyone do an analysis of Rude's 1992 to see where it holds up. The only evidence we have in this thread is Dylan talking about the WCW he participated in. How much are we relying on fuzzy memories. This is a prickly path though because you get into the area of what will then be the arbitrary cut off of when I feel confident rating someone based on footage I have seen 5-10 years ago. This does create anguish for me that I can't get past.

 

Chad, you just did a podcast in which you listed your top 100 matches of all time. It wasn't meant to be your definitive list until the end of days, and you made that clear upfront. But you obviously put real thought into it, and a lot of people on here enjoyed it. How's this any different? Why the anguish?

 

 

 

I think a lot goes into the semantics argument. This has been established as a project that will occur at every ten years. While i did put thought in my top 100, I did have some ease in saying to myself, "I haven't watched the New Japan 84 Gauntlet after my self-imposed, arbitrary date of 2011 so it is fine being off the list for now." With this list, fairly or not it is a reflection of where I rank the top 100 wrestlers and I won't have a chance to rectify or edit that for a long period of time. This makes everything more finite and does cause me to dwell over how much stock I should put into rewatching or discovering new workers in order to accurately place them in my top 100.

 

I will use Akira Hokuto as an example. I do believe any list with Rude in their top 100 will be largely based on his 1992. I largely remember that being a great year. The key word in that is largely remember though. I haven't analyzed his tv stuff or PPV stuff in many years. Maybe the 20+ in this thread that voted for Rude have, but I don't see evidence of that on this board or in any other median. As much as I disagree at times with OJ's analysis on matches, he does the work and I can see where he is coming from when he gauges someone like Tenryu. Based on this thread, I am left to surmise that memories of a long time ago are the main evidence pointing towards the ranking of Rude. To get back to Hokuto, as I near the end of 93 in the yearbook, she has undoubtedly had a great year. However, is that year alone GWE ranking worthy? That is something I am looking at analyzing by collecting my thoughts on the other footage I have seen of her semi-recently. Beyond all of that, is the yearbook footage alone enough to accurately gauge? That is a fair criticism that can be leveled against me.

 

The other point where anguish comes in is where I may be forced to not vote for any workers because my confidence level is so low that I can accurately gauge. We just got through the WON HOF season debate on how people will willy nilly vote in regions they have no business voting for where the net result of YES vote for Perro Agayuo is a NO vote for everyone else in the region. Likewise, Will hand waving joshi or me doing the same with Joint Promotions turns into a NO vote for all of those individuals when you cull all the points for the wrestlers. This justifiably or not does create a sense of anguish in myself that Steve Grey was a few spots lower just because I didn't have the time to watch the footage to judge him.

[concrete1992]

One person from the beginning knowing this process wouldn't be for them is one thing.

 

One person realizing everyone else's process isn't for them is another.

 

EDIT: Also, who said this would happen every 10 years? I haven't read where that is firm.

[BillThompson]

All these replies are well and good, but they are glossing over the way that Parv continues to treat those who disagree with him. This board is supposed to be built on the idea of exchanging ideas, bouncing theories off of one another, and sharing our opinions of wrestlers, promotions, eras, and wrestling in general. For the most part this is accomplished, and we all like the little community we have here. However I know there are people who have left, been run off, or stopped posting suddenly because of the way their opinions are treated by one person, that person being Parv.

 

It really is ridiculous that in topic after topic opinions are treated like they don't count, are stupid, or that the person posting them should be discounted or is stupid simply because Parv doesn't agree with them. It's the general tone, the way that people are told their opinion is arbitrary, or that they need to prove to him that their opinion is honest. This isn't Parv Wrestling Only, but it plays out like that at times, and it really does a disservice to what this place usually is for me, and many others.

 

By all means keep the high quality comments/replies coming, but let's not gloss over the fact that this all started because once again Parv decided that people here didn't fit his high standards and that their opinion wasn't worth anything because they had a different opinion than him or were approaching the project differently than him. All the purple prose in the world can't cover up tone and actual verbiage used.

[jdw]

Damn… we were all pretty much having fun in 2006 in SC, even if maybe we were much more abrasive back then. A few people around here are taking this way too fucking seriously. Watch matches, rate wrestlers, have fun bitching about the countdown. That's how it went and it was *fun*. Hell, the bitching part was half the fun of it (and it was true of all our polls actually, be it wrestling, movies or music).

 

It's staggering how much more abrasive people were back in 2006. Perhaps not in the GWE discussion, which I remember to be relatively light. But in damn near anythings along those lines. Folks went hammer and tong in the WWE Matches poll. Folks went harsh in damn near everything. Hell, our arguments *hear* 2-4 years ago were far harsher than this thread or other GWE/Microscope discussions.

 

As far as taking this version of the GWE seriously... as an outsider on it, let me just say that the poster are taking it REALLY FUCKING SERIOUSLY. They're putting a shitload of thought into it. More than most of these projects tend to get. To the degree that I look at any numbers (as in several dozen) of these threads and think to myself:

 

"Thank god I don't have to invest time in watching a bunch of Osamu Nishimura, Hector Garza, Masanobu Kurisu, Alex Wright and Naomichi Marufuji matches. I'd never have time for Inspector Lewis and Champions League if I did."

 

That's not a knock on the guys who are investing a bunch of time watching Nishimura, Garza, Kurisu, Wright and Marufuji. It's a reflection on me, and that I don't have the passion / obsession / drive / desire / time to invest in the depth of a project like this anymore. Great for the guys who do as your fandom is rocking.

 

So folks don't agree on everything? Big fucking deal. That's always going to be the case.

 

Ponder the first creatures to move up out of the seas onto dry land, stand upright and say:

 

"You know, I think Aja Kong is a better worker than Manami Toyota. And while we're at it, Stan Hansen worked circles around Bruiser Brody, who kind of blew."

 

Those S.O.B.'s were swimming upstream to their deaths with the big ass grizzly bears of Entrenched Consensus pawing away at them. But...

 

They didn't give a shit. They might not convince the Masters of The Old Consensus, who they really had no fucks to give about after a while. They wanted to toss out what they felt, and see if other folks felt the same way.

 

Result?

 

Within a decade of the first time I saw someone toss out that Hansen was a better worker than Brody, that was a firmly held view by folks when GWE 1.0 happened. There always were a fair number of people who also thought Brody kinda sorta maybe blew chunks... a lot of chunks.

 

Aja vs Toyota? There might be a split on that. On the other hand, anyone who comes along today and thinks that Aja was a better worker has a far easier time of it than we did back in the day.

 

So...

 

There always will be differences. Some of them will be heated. Some of them will be more philosophical, which seems to be the case with everyone in this thread except for Parv. Which happens sometimes: I know that I've been out the on the opposite side of some point where it's been largely JDW vs The World. But seriously, differences are always going to happen.

[soup23]

All points on both sides. We are sticking with 2016, just so it can be 10 years since the last poll. WrestleMania was picked, because that is the peak of interest for people in wrestling through the year. Obviously, if we need to, I would be ok in extending this to later in the year.

Of course this isn't going to be definitive. If you gave us 20 years, we would still be missing on gaps, because of new found footage and new wrestling happening daily.

I like the idea of re-visiting in 2026.

That was in the Deadline thread.

[concrete1992]

I'm young so that is okay but half of you will be dead by 2026. Seems short sighted.

[BillThompson]

I'm young so that is okay but half of you will be dead by 2026. Seems short sighted.

 

I'll be lucky to make it to March...

[DR Ackermann]

 

I do believe any list with Rude in their top 100 will be largely based on his 1992. I largely remember that being a great year. The key word in that is largely remember though. I haven't analyzed his tv stuff or PPV stuff in many years. Maybe the 20+ in this thread that voted for Rude have, but I don't see evidence of that on this board or in any other median.

 

 

I think this is a strange claim as their are about 20 Rick Rude matches on the 92 yearbook, which all have threads on this board. If you go through those threads you sou the same people consistently critiquing the matches and Rude's performances.

[soup23]

 

 

I do believe any list with Rude in their top 100 will be largely based on his 1992. I largely remember that being a great year. The key word in that is largely remember though. I haven't analyzed his tv stuff or PPV stuff in many years. Maybe the 20+ in this thread that voted for Rude have, but I don't see evidence of that on this board or in any other median.

 

 

I think this is a strange claim as their are about 20 Rick Rude matches on the 92 yearbook, which all have threads on this board. If you go through those threads you sou the same people consistently critiquing the matches and Rude's performances.

 

 

I looked through a chunk of those threads and only see analysis in the Rude matches from the people that voted for Rude in this poll from El-P, Tim Evans, and WingedEagle.

[Grimmas]

 

All points on both sides. We are sticking with 2016, just so it can be 10 years since the last poll. WrestleMania was picked, because that is the peak of interest for people in wrestling through the year. Obviously, if we need to, I would be ok in extending this to later in the year.

Of course this isn't going to be definitive. If you gave us 20 years, we would still be missing on gaps, because of new found footage and new wrestling happening daily.

I like the idea of re-visiting in 2026.

That was in the Deadline thread.

 

Dylan and I had private facebook messages discussing this topic long before it was revealed to the public.

 

The 2016 deadline I was pretty adamant about. Sight & Sound do their movie list every ten years and I am extremely fascinated by that list and it's slow changes over time.

 

The hope is that somebody runs this poll again in 2026, even if it's done in a completely different fashion.

[Matt D]

What's the downside of yearly check-ins? Most of the heavy work will be done for 2016. It'll just be shifting things around per what you've seen and where the discussion has gone in the 12 months after.

[InYourCase]

Does Parv, or anyone else for that matter have an issue with younger members like myself submitting ballot? I'm submitting one, no questions asked. I signed up for PWO but wasn't as active at first because I was a little intimidated by Parv and some other members because their knowledge is far greater than mine. Then, after discussing this project with someone in a DM, I realized that me not having sat through hours of Mid South doesn't make my opinion any less valid than someone else's. I have a major issue with your post, Parv.

 

I'm not going to have Rude over Ted on my ballot. I made up my mind a few weeks ago that Rude isn't going to be on my ballot. Then again, I've seen such little of Ted and so I'm not even sure that he'll make my ballot. This is like my getting up set that people aren't going to have Shingo Takagi on their ballot. Hell, Parv, something tells me you haven't taken a look at Takagi or any other Dragon Gate guys. I don't expect you to. But I'm actively looking for Lucha recs, I'm taking a long look at WoS, and I'm open to watching anything that people send me. Who are you to say that people aren't taking this seriously enough? That's bullshit.

[DR Ackermann]

 

 

 

I do believe any list with Rude in their top 100 will be largely based on his 1992. I largely remember that being a great year. The key word in that is largely remember though. I haven't analyzed his tv stuff or PPV stuff in many years. Maybe the 20+ in this thread that voted for Rude have, but I don't see evidence of that on this board or in any other median.

 

 

I think this is a strange claim as their are about 20 Rick Rude matches on the 92 yearbook, which all have threads on this board. If you go through those threads you sou the same people consistently critiquing the matches and Rude's performances.

 

 

I looked through a chunk of those threads and only see analysis in the Rude matches from the people that voted for Rude in this poll from El-P, Tim Evans, and WingedEagle.

 

 

Ah, I see what you're saying. You're referring specifically to the people who voted, not just in general. That comes with having a poll like this though. If its a discussion you are going to get more input than if its just a poll where the engagement only has to be at a minimum.

[Grimmas]

Parv, it's bullshit. You are not voting lucha, shoot style or joshi most likely. You said as much. You can't reject major styles/areas and then say that people aren't taking it seriously enough for you.

[Grimmas]

What's the downside of yearly check-ins? Most of the heavy work will be done for 2016. It'll just be shifting things around per what you've seen and where the discussion has gone in the 12 months after.

What would be the upside of a yearly top 100 poll?

[jdw]

Does Parv, or anyone else for that matter have an issue with younger members like myself submitting ballot? I'm submitting one, no questions asked. I signed up for PWO but wasn't as active at first because I was a little intimidated by Parv and some other members because their knowledge is far greater than mine. Then, after discussing this project with someone in a DM, I realized that me not having sat through hours of Mid South doesn't make my opinion any less valid than someone else's. I have a major issue with your post, Parv.

 

I'm not going to have Rude over Ted on my ballot. I made up my mind a few weeks ago that Rude isn't going to be on my ballot. Then again, I've seen such little of Ted and so I'm not even sure that he'll make my ballot. This is like my getting up set that people aren't going to have Shingo Takagi on their ballot. Hell, Parv, something tells me you haven't taken a look at Takagi or any other Dragon Gate guys. I don't expect you to. But I'm actively looking for Lucha recs, I'm taking a long look at WoS, and I'm open to watching anything that people send me. Who are you to say that people aren't taking this seriously enough? That's bullshit.

 

There's a thread about submitting ballots here:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32100-everyone-should-submit-a-ballot

 

Bottom line: Grimmas (who is running the project) and a load of other posters encouraged anyone who wanted to submit a ballot to do so.

 

On the flip side, there's nothing wrong with *not* doing a ballot while still talking about various candidates. Loss has his reasons, which are perfectly fine. But it's still useful for others to have Loss post about various workers when he feels the urge. I think that's the same for other posters who might not submit a ballot, but enjoy the discussion of various wrestlers.

[soup23]

 

What's the downside of yearly check-ins? Most of the heavy work will be done for 2016. It'll just be shifting things around per what you've seen and where the discussion has gone in the 12 months after.

What would be the upside of a yearly top 100 poll?

 

 

For me, less definiteness in nature and more of a reflection that the list is ever-changing not a finite marker in time.

[concrete1992]

Have your cake and eat it too, brothers.

[Grimmas]

 

 

What's the downside of yearly check-ins? Most of the heavy work will be done for 2016. It'll just be shifting things around per what you've seen and where the discussion has gone in the 12 months after.

What would be the upside of a yearly top 100 poll?

 

 

For me, less definiteness in nature and more of a reflection that the list is ever-changing not a finite marker in time.

 

That's a fair point. I think the ten year thing does the same thing as a yearly one.

 

For me, if we were to vote yearly I doubt my list would change much as I wouldn't put in the time to check out new guys or watch certain people's footage as I have had for this project.

 

Of course, if somebody wants to run that yearly go ahead, but I'm not in charge. I'd rather focus on the rumoured wrestling match hall of fame.

[concrete1992]

I swear to god if a Wrestling Match HOF Project runs while the Greatest Match Ever gets into full swing...

[DR Ackermann]

To me, there's no point in doing it every year. It would take all the fun and the point of this process away. This is a cool project that I am dedicated to, but would not want to spend my entire wrestling time working on. In fact, I am looking forward to this being over just so that I can focus more on different aspects of wrestling. Every 10 years or 5 years makes sense.